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Interview with Hans Hofmann, circa 1962, from the Dorothy Gees Seckler collection of sound recordings relating to art and artists, 1962-1976

Interview with Hans Hofmann, circa 1962

Hofmann, Hans, 1880-1966

Overview

Item Information

Title: Interview with Hans Hofmann

Date: circa 1962

Physical Details: 1 sound tape reel : analog ; 5 in. ; 31 min., 26 sec.

Description: Interview with Hans Hofmann conducted by Dorothy Gees Seckler, circa 1962. Hofmann discusses his school in Munich, Germany, and his teaching. Seckler asks Hofmann about giving records to the Archives of American Art to be microfilmed.

Original recording is of poor sound quality.

Creator: Hofmann, Hans, 1880-1966

Forms part of: Dorothy Gees Seckler collection of sound recordings relating to art and artists, 1962-1976

Rights Statement: Current copyright status is undetermined

Citation: Interview with Hans Hofmann, circa 1962. Dorothy Gees Seckler collection of sound recordings relating to art and artists, 1962-1976. Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.

Availability: This item has been digitally reformatted. It is available by requesting an appointment in the Archives of American Art's reading rooms, or in certain situations as a Reproduction Request.

Digital ID: 12854

Transcript

Preface

This interview is part of the Dorothy Gees Seckler collection of sound recordings relating to art and artists, 1962-1976. The following verbatim transcription was produced in 2015, with funding from Jamie S. Gorelick. Transcribing this interview was particularly challenging because of the poor sound quality of the original recording, as well as Hans Hofmann's German accent and limited English. Throughout the transcript, inaudible passages are indicated in brackets.

Interview

DOROTHY SECKLER:  An introductory tape on sources for Hans Hofmann, taken in Provincetown.

HANS HOFMANN:  —interrupted through two important wars. And my productions had suffered very strongly. I was [indiscernible due to accent] before the first World War too—and what's his name again? And [indiscernible due to accent] Miz will recall it. Miz says this was—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  We'll get here—

HANS HOFMANN:  A protectors, yes protectors.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Oh, patron. A patron?

HANS HOFMANN:  A patron. A patron, see.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes. Yes.

HANS HOFMANN:  For ten years in Paris. That's to the consequence that in the war that stopped, see. And then I had to start in the war [indiscernible due to accent] in New York, up in [indiscernible due to accent]. But that stopped my career because I had to start this [indiscernible due to accent]. And in this time all of us was against man, they feel that we wanted to be creative [indiscernible due to accent]. And I discovered my colleagues [indiscernible due to accent].

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And everywhere or particularly where you were?

HANS HOFMANN:  I have not understood what you said.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  In Paris or in this country—

MIZ HOFMANN:  No, in Germany.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  In Germany. I see, in Germany.

HANS HOFMANN:  No see, before the first World War I was in Paris, ten years.

MIZ HOFMANN:  In Paris, yes, yes.

HANS HOFMANN:  Then before the second World War my School of Art commenced [ph] from the first World War to the second World War, just goes straight through.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes.

HANS HOFMANN:  Until I came to the United States a few years before the outbreak of the second World War.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  You were in Germany, in what part of Germany?

HANS HOFMANN:  Munich.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  In Munich.

HANS HOFMANN:  Munich and then Paris.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And you say you—

HANS HOFMANN:  Now, my school was—

[Cross talk.]

HANS HOFMANN:  No. My school was [indiscernible due to accent] families. My school attracted students from all over the world. They came from Japan and from South American and from everywhere in the world.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  I had heard that.

HANS HOFMANN:  This was the reason that I was called to come to America by the University of California.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And you went out there first to—

[Cross talk]

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes. And that started my career and the whole Hitler business that started in Germany and I never looked back. And [indiscernible due to accent] because it would not—a war would not make you believe that this can stay very long.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And the records of all those years were destroyed in the two wars? Paintings, records—

[Cross talk.]

HANS HOFMANN:  Well see, I had very little chance to be creative myself. So all of this happenings make it what is—goes just against your own possibilities. You cannot go around [indiscernible due to accent] but certainly comes up. And it's just the point that [indiscernible due to accent] to come back in line just like [indiscernible due to accent].

MIZ HOFMANN:  And then there was one point in Germany when [inaudible].

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Well I'm not sure that the tape recorder could hear Miz when she said that, would you like to talk a little bit about conditions during the first World War there and—

HANS HOFMANN:  I have not quite understood what you ask me there.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Would you like to say a little bit, what Miz was talking about, the conditions during the first World War? How it was for the artists? You began to talk about that a moment ago.

HANS HOFMANN:  Well I felt like rough for everybody.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Very tough.

HANS HOFMANN:  It was extremely tough. But I [indiscernible due to accent] because I—my school, it was a tremendous success. That is a story in itself. I could tell better [indiscernible due to accent] story but [indiscernible due to accent] artist's houses was gone, and since this course was started in the wartime there.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Right.

HANS HOFMANN:  Now, no men have been here in the country, only women, see, [indiscernible due to accent]. So that's what has make it easy for me. Okay? It's this type of [indiscernible due to accent] all the time. There was some of them that [indiscernible due to accent] has access.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Could you maybe have been—

HANS HOFMANN:  But that's the World War, and then the first World War ended it's just the opposite. It's just all the man came [indiscernible due to accent].

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Oh, I see.

HANS HOFMANN:  But I cannot tell others' stories. That's just [indiscernible due to accent].

DOROTHY SECKLER:  No. What I would like you to talk about, if you can think of it, is points and if there were any records of any kind of these early years. Did anyone write anything, any books or articles, about the school you had in Munich?

HANS HOFMANN:  There was [indiscernible due to accent] before I got to America was some big activity [indiscernible due to accent]—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  They don't listen—

HANS HOFMANN:  One particularly, a man with the name Hans Heidelmeier [ph], think it was man like you, you know, [indiscernible due to accent] I'd tell you about [indiscernible due to accent] story.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And where did that appear, Hans?

HANS HOFMANN:  What?

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Where was it published?

HANS HOFMANN:  In his paper, mentioned the [indiscernible due to accent].

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Would you say that good and loud so that the tape recorder—

HANS HOFMANN:  [Indiscernible due to accent]. I don't never know the name and his name was Hans Heidelmeier.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Good. Then after you came—

HANS HOFMANN:  This was [indiscernible due to accent], this was good yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Well then we can look that up. Unless, do you have a copy of it here?

HANS HOFMANN:  No, no. I have not any records, see.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Oh, I see.

HANS HOFMANN:  No.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  When you came to this country, Hans, was your work or your teaching method recorded by anyone in the early years here? Did anyone write articles or make movies or take recordings in any way?

HANS HOFMANN:  No, only the—the students write things and sometimes they give it to me. [Indiscernible due to accent] to my amazement all of the time they cite some things what I never said, see. [They laugh.] That I never have said in my life.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Did anyone ever make a tape recording of—

HANS HOFMANN:  Well this cannot be—this cannot be whatever I said. I take care [indiscernible due to accent] but my teaching it has always [indiscernible due to accent] and this what I have written about teaching, see. Yes I have a completed book about it.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  You have? Well has it been published?

HANS HOFMANN:  Oh, yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  [Inaudible.]

HANS HOFMANN:  No. I have not made any effort to publish it and will not make any effort.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Why not? Hans, that would be a record that would be most terribly valuable for the Archives to have or to microfilm. Would you ever consider letting it be a matter of record for students in the future—

HANS HOFMANN:  No. I will tell you what I every time I would told. I would keep this book free, the writing of Hans Hofmann, collective writing of Hans Hofmann. I want not to have anything to do with it as far as financing, the things that's in question and so on. But naturally I want not to keep it back either. So as it's practical, I write it to be published [indiscernible due to accent].

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And you have never shown it to a publisher?

HANS HOFMANN:  No. At this time, but I gave it to, a copy, that I received already back, to Harold Rosenberg, because he intends to intends to write about this course, see. More or less all this what I have written had to do with this course, yes? But I really have accomplished is to lie down certain, not discovery, this not quite the right word. I cannot say it in English, certain experiences see, which are absolutely unique, which no one ever before could have written about [indiscernible due to accent]. [Indiscernible due to accent] because I accept, he made me a Doctor of Humane Letters or something.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Who did?

HANS HOFMANN:  And so I have to speak, to prepare myself [indiscernible due to accent].

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Do you think that this material complete for a book if it—

HANS HOFMANN:  Oh sure, yes it is.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Well why are you waiting to—

HANS HOFMANN:  Because I want to, want not to be distracted more as I was already all my life.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes, suppose somebody paid you and said look I will take it away and publish it and you will have nothing to do with it? But we then could read it.

HANS HOFMANN:  That's what—it depends on the certain condition if it has—[indiscernible due to accent] it's very hard. It would have to come out, that is absolutely under my control. And that is [indiscernible due to accent]. Every day, up to now I say.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Hans, it sounds like this would be—

HANS HOFMANN:  It depends, you know, on the—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  —a terrific read.

HANS HOFMANN:  It would also depend on how it comes out and which way it comes out to [indiscernible due to accent] the actual institution what takes care of that [indiscernible due to accent]. Yes?

[Cross talk.]

HANS HOFMANN:  I would not give it to, not just to anyone, see.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  No, you have to have a very top publisher.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, yes, yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And a top editor.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And someone who will take the responsibility and do a very good job. Hans, do you have only one copy of it? Or do you have more than one?

HANS HOFMANN:  I have a few but I give not any one to anyone. [Laughs.]

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Well the reason I'm asking, what the Archives would do with material of that type is to make a microfilm document. And then return it to you.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And will put a seal on something so it could not be seen by anyone for 50 years if you'd like. This—

HANS HOFMANN:  Oh, you mean the copyright?

DOROTHY SECKLER:  No, not a copyright. But some people, sometimes people like to give something to the Archives but it affects someone who's living—

HANS HOFMANN:  Give it to what? To?

DOROTHY SECKLER:  To the Archive.

MIZ HOFMANN:  To the archiv [speaking German].

HANS HOFMANN:  Oh, oh you mean the archiv? In the archiv [indiscernible due to accent].

MIZ HOFMANN:  No, no.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Well, let's talk about that later. But they give it and then they say but it must be sealed for 50 years, you see. Because they want to publish a book and they don't want anyone else to see the material. Or sometimes there may be something about a person who's living and they don't want the material to come out until afterwards. And so that is frequently done, that the material is given with a seal for a certain number of years.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Certain number of years?

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes and perhaps you could explain that to Hans.

MIZ HOFMANN:  This is, a copy is made and this is sealed for a number of years if you want to—

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, yes, yes.

MIZ HOFMANN:  But if you don't want to then it's open and everyone can read it.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Well still—

HANS HOFMANN:  Well I [indiscernible due to accent] comes out, see. This is not just that you [indiscernible due to accent] in book.

MIZ HOFMANN:  It has nothing to do with the publication.

HANS HOFMANN:  My—yes, yes.

MIZ HOFMANN:  It has nothing to do with the publication.

HANS HOFMANN:  Because I have understood what she said.

MIZ HOFMANN:  It will be in the Archives, yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Hans, the Archive is not for writers basically, or like myself, like a journalist. It's for students of art history now and in the future who are qualified researchers, qualified students of history. And they are the only ones who have permission to use the archives material. So everything that we get—like if you had letters and documents, we would take those to Detroit, or to New York, and have them microfilmed. You know what microfilm is?

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, yes. Mr. Lipman [ph] said the same thing.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes. And then you can have them back. We don't care too much about keeping the originals.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  The main thing is to make the microfilm record. Because if you have the original it can be burned. Your house can burn. You know, we've already been through this.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  But if we have it on microfilm then that is stored in a bank vault. You see? And then it's pretty safe. Is that it all be a record for future generations, you see. And that's really our basic job.

MIZ HOFMANN:  They don't make catalogues. Catalogue is—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes, catalogue we would be delighted to get.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Cataloguing of the work of the artist, their work.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes, we want to. Your photographs, your movies. I went to a man's house—

HANS HOFMANN:  Well it's just [indiscernible due to accent] comes out anyhow because as we come out, the book and they give it 50 color reproductions, what comes out in Italy of my work see.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes, but that's not a catalogue.

HANS HOFMANN:  No, but is more than a catalogue. [Laughs.]

MIZ HOFMANN:  No, yes, yes. But this is a thing. There is somebody in New York also what is doing that. He's catalogizing artist's work. I've forgotten the name, who is doing that.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Well there's an archivist, a staff, in Detroit, when they get all the material on an artist they have here letters, here exhibition catalogues, here photographs of his work. Over here a movie that was made. Here a tape recording or several tape recordings. Now this archivist has the job to put those all together and make a complete record of that artist's career.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  So that when somebody comes, say 500 years from now, and looks for Hans Hofmann, there is a complete cross-index file showing everything about your work.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And if he looks under the subject of, let's say, the year 1959 in Provincetown, then he knows that there was a tape made. There was an exhibition. There were several lectures recorded. And he can find all those things in that year. See that's their job in Detroit.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And that's what the Ford Foundation has helped to support to make that possible you see. I don't do that myself. I have nothing to do with the—

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, I see. And I—I have all this behind, always what should have been recorded is far behind me. And I say all the time, they have one thing, I have almost forgotten that I have taught 40 years. I have almost completely forgotten this. I am so involved now in my work that I have almost never the feeling that I have ever taught. See?

MIZ HOFMANN:  45 years—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Well Hans, I am more interested in you as an artist than I am as a teacher.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  I like very much to have everything about your teaching.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  But I am also even more interested in you as a painter.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, yes. Sure because whatever you say about art is never the same what you say direct through your works. Whatever, whoever it maybe tries to explain it happens all the time the incapacity of the work to bring [indiscernible due to accent] out what the artist really has sensed and feeled [ph] and even he goes to the—at completion to finish a work, see.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  How, I think in a way the visual record of the artist's work is very important. One way that we would like to get a record of your work is through moving pictures. Before I came up here I went to see Warren Forma, you know who he is.

HANS HOFMANN:  No, not—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  He did a film of you with brushes in your hand making a painting. You remember.

HANS HOFMANN:  All right. That is last summer? There have been two people here last summer.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes.

HANS HOFMANN:  And one I think was a bit amateurish, he left his gear behind in the stable area.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  No, this is the other one, Warren Forma. And you were filmed in color.

HANS HOFMANN:  And the other one was an Italian artist--

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes, that's the one. And so you think—

HANS HOFMANN:  I think he was the better one.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes, it was a very interesting film. Have you—

HANS HOFMANN:  I have never seen whatever he did with me though.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  You haven't?

HANS HOFMANN:  No, never.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  I wish you could see it.

MIZ HOFMANN:  You saw it?

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Oh yes, it was really fun. You're standing there with all these brushes and, you know, working all over and [Hofmann laughs] and it was wonderful to see the picture come to life.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes. Yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  It wasn't like it was just a performance, like a hand, because you could see what happened to the picture. And that's what I liked about it. And now you see that's expensive for us but we have to find somebody who will say, look, this is a very important document for the Archives.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And I'll give you $1,000 or $2,000, that's what it costs I think, to get that movie from Warren Forma. We can't afford it so easily, but that's one of the ways we would like to have a record of you in the Archive.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes. Yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Another way of course is to have photographs. And could you tell me, Hans, while you have this here, what photographer could we go to? We'll pay for it. What photographer could we go to and get as nearly as possible, a complete file of photographs of your own work?

HANS HOFMANN:  [Indiscernible due to accent.]

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes, Rainford is the only guy who makes the photograph.

HANS HOFMANN:  Rainford.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Rainford? He is in New York, is that right?.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Percy Rainford, in New York.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Percy Rainford.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes, he has still the photographs from about 1920 on. Even earlier pictures.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Wonderful.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes, still, you know, he has still the [inaudible].

HANS HOFMANN:  I don't know—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes, splendid.

HANS HOFMANN:  I don't know. See, for example, the book what comes out in Italy that had 50 color reproductions and 100 in black and white.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Splendid.

HANS HOFMANN:  That's a [indiscernible due to accent].

MIZ HOFMANN:  We had much more—we had much more photographs [inaudible].

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Could you tell me, while I think of it, the name of that book and the publisher in Italy?

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes, but this comes out only in the fall now, in fall.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes, but what is the publisher? And if you think of it I might as well get it on the tape. That we would certainly like to get, Hans, the book. And we would bring that—

HANS HOFMANN:  Right, right. It's out—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  But we would also like to have other photographs.

HANS HOFMANN:  Because to bring [indiscernible due to accent] bring out, partly out what I have written about that.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes. Splendid.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, the important, particularly what I have written, see. More or less [indiscernible due to accent] in this book, see.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Splendid. But we would like also in addition—that may be a very top selection, you know. Paintings and—

HANS HOFMANN:  I'll show you a bunch of photographs you can—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  I'll turn that off.

[Recorder turned off.]

DOROTHY SECKLER:  It was the Art Students League publication—

HANS HOFMANN:  This is the Art Institute publication where I wrote [indiscernible due to accent] for the Art Students League considering the whole atmosphere of the Institution. When they [indiscernible due to accent] taught and how—and complete [indiscernible due to accent], and so I wrote an article, basic article. But was reprint done a few years later, again in the same magazine. And is especially important for beginners, you know, student beginners, see, that they advance and they have become [indiscernible due to accent] about the difference between imitation and [indiscernible due to accent]. And so that is what this article is extremely profound, see.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Do you remember approximately what year it may have appeared?

HANS HOFMANN:  You said it before, Miz, what year was the Art Students League article?

HANS HOFMANN:  That was in the '30s—

MIZ HOFMANN:  1931 I think.

HANS HOFMANN:  1931.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Really. That early.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, when I came back from the University of California, so that would make it—I accepted a teaching job here and the Art Students League in this timeframe.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  After those magazine articles what would you say was the next publication on your—

HANS HOFMANN:  That was done The Search for the Real.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  By Bart Hayes?

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes, yes.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes, it was around 1948.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  1948 was the—

MIZ HOFMANN:  Think about in 1948.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes.

MIZ HOFMANN:  The Addison Gallery of American Art.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Would you say that so that—the tape won't hear Miz.

HANS HOFMANN:  [Indiscernible due to accent] because I know so very little about it. The next of my writings or [indiscernible due to accent] came out in the Addison Gallery of American Art. Phillips Academy, Andover, Massachusetts, edited by Sara T. Weeks and Bartlett Hayes, Jr., a monograph based on an exhibition, covering a half century of the art of Hans Hofmann, held at the Addison Gallery, January 2nd to February 22nd, 1948.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Good. Between 1931 and '48 there must have been some very important exhibitions of your work.

HANS HOFMANN:  No. Because I showed no interest in this time [indiscernible due to accent] was beautiful.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And '48 was the—

MIZ HOFMANN:  [Inaudible] Peggy Guggenheim in '48.

HANS HOFMANN:  My first really show was in the—

MIZ HOFMANN:  1943.

HANS HOFMANN: —'43 with Peggy Guggenheim.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  In Paris?

HANS HOFMANN:  No, New York.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  In New York?

HANS HOFMANN:  In New York. That was 19—

MIZ HOFMANN:  '43.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And the catalogue for that, is that—do you have it or?

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes, we have it.

HANS HOFMANN:  It's my catalogue?

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes, it's a [inaudible], yes.

HANS HOFMANN:  Well then—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Is it a pretty important catalogue, Miz?

MIZ HOFMANN:  No.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  You think not.

HANS HOFMANN:  No, not in this time, at this time. That was [indiscernible due to accent] still more simple and [indiscernible due to accent] just extremely pretention [ph] is all it's made up to.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Well after the Peggy Guggenheim exhibition which would you say was the next exhibition?

HANS HOFMANN:  Well [indiscernible due to accent].

MIZ HOFMANN:  No.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  It was bad?

MIZ HOFMANN:  What is the name?

HANS HOFMANN:  Oh, oh in Chicago after that.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes, yes.

HANS HOFMANN:  In the Art Club in Chicago.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Arts Club in Chicago.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes, what year roughly was that?

MIZ HOFMANN:  '44.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  '44, so that was before Andover, yes.

MIZ HOFMANN:  We had exhibitions every year after '44 with Betty Parsons.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  All right every year after '44 with Betty Parsons?

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  And there were—

HANS HOFMANN:  How long? This was under three years, it was—

MIZ HOFMANN:  Then with Kootz.

HANS HOFMANN:  Then with Kootz. No, then came Putzel.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes, for two years.

HANS HOFMANN:  Yes Putzel's there. After Peggy Guggenheim came Putzel.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Howard Putzel.

HANS HOFMANN:  Howard Putzel.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Did you know Howard Putzel?

DOROTHY SECKLER:  No.

HANS HOFMANN:  He retired. He retired.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Was that a New York Gallery?

MIZ HOFMANN:  That's what the manager on the Peggy Guggenheim Gallery, but he's opened an own gallery. And Hans exhibited with him in 1944.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes.

MIZ HOFMANN:  And then, but he passed and he died.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes. After '44 with Betty Parsons.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Betty Parsons.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Until when did you join Kootz, Hans?

HANS HOFMANN:  I think this was only two years later maybe.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Two years. Say '44 and '45 he was with Howard Putzel. And '46, 1946 on Betty Parsons. And then Kootz.

HANS HOFMANN:  [Indiscernible due to accent.]

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes, during the period when you were having the exhibitions with Betty, was there a particularly interesting catalogue published? Or was there anything about—any record—

HANS HOFMANN:  No, no, no.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  —that we might make of any of those shows?

HANS HOFMANN:  No, only until I showed with—

MIZ HOFMANN:  We have the catalogues with the names of the pictures.

HANS HOFMANN:  —with the Whitney, see?

DOROTHY SECKLER:  At the Whitney? What year?

HANS HOFMANN:  That's [indiscernible due to accent].

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Yes.

HANS HOFMANN:  Have you not one of [inaudible]?

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes.

HANS HOFMANN:  And that's [indiscernible due to accent].

DOROTHY SECKLER:  I suppose that the photographs that—you mentioned a photographer's name in New York, he would have that—

MIZ HOFMANN:  And you can still buy the catalogue in the Whitney gifts.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  Oh, splendid.

MIZ HOFMANN:  I'm going to get you one because you—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  No, I'd just like to look at it.

MIZ HOFMANN:  Yes.

HANS HOFMANN:  No, it's nothing—

DOROTHY SECKLER:  I just wanted to get date out of it.

HANS HOFMANN:  There's nothing of value, it's absolute more than ever need the future thing.

MIZ HOFMANN:  They have still plenty, they always print them again.

DOROTHY SECKLER:  The catalogue for the Whitney show was [recording abruptly ends].

[END OF INTERVIEW.]