Oral history interview with Annemarie Pope, 1981 Apr. 21

Transcript

Preface

The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Annemarie Henle Pope on April 21, 1981. The interview took place in Washington, D.C., and was conducted by Estill Curtis "Buck" Pennington for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.

This interview was recorded on two cassettes in three parts. Parts one and two were transcribed in August 1981. In 2024, part three was transcribed, and parts one and two were retranscribed and reconciled against the original transcript in an attempt to create a verbatim transcript of the full interview. This transcript has been lightly edited for readability by the Archives of American Art. The reader should bear in mind that they are reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose. Additional information from the original transcript has been added in brackets and given an –Ed. attribution.

Interview

[00:00:03.69]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Testing Pope.

[00:00:06.74]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Oh, a chair. Would that be a good idea?

[00:00:08.82]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  No, I think this is—I think that this is fine.

[00:00:11.35]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  You can also take this away and put it up on this table, you see. There are all kinds of possibilities.

[00:00:19.90]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  I thought we would start with just some basics, some basic background material. You were actually born in Germany.

[00:00:26.22]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yeah.

[00:00:26.86]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Where?

[00:00:28.09]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  In Dortmund, in Westphalia. A very big industrial city that reminds me always very much of Pittsburgh.

[00:00:37.51]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Of Pittsburgh?

[00:00:37.76]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  It's the same thing. Iron, and steel, and coal, and Coke, and full of terrible pollution. But on the other hand, a very culturally active city with marvelous music. I'm still very interested in music, and subscribe to more things than I can handle—opera, symphony, chamber music. I do all that. And there was a good museum in which I think was destroyed, but it's rebuilt, and is still very good. Now, this was a very interesting city to grow up in.

And then when I came to college age, I went away, naturally, and I studied in Munich and Heidelberg. In the meantime, my family had moved to Heidelberg, and we had a beautiful house overlooking the Rhine Valley—very, very high up, you know. And you have a marvelous view there to the—is it called Palatinate? The palace. And I liked Heidelberg very much, too, and did a lot of driving around and studied, all along, history of art.

[00:01:56.20]

I mean, since my school days, even before I went to school, I was interested in museums. And when my grandmother said, "What shall we do this afternoon?" I would say, "I want to go to the museum." I was only six years old, and it was either in Dortmund or nearby—Bochum, Essen, Düsseldorf. Cologne was not too far, though you had to have a car or a train ride. And then I would know all these museums very well, and had my favorites, and began right there. And then come to my early student days. I was sent to Paris for one year to study French, and study the museums in Paris, and then to London and to study there. Also English, of course—which was not my mother tongue, as you can hear. [They laugh.]

[00:02:48.17]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Anglo-Saxon.

[00:02:50.45]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  So it's very funny, because I have had diplomatic phonetic lessons from time to time. And one would think that in some cases, people really managed to remove their accent altogether, but I just did not—never quite did it. And in spite of these lessons—because I was in classes where everybody had some faults in their pronunciation, and so on, and I felt perfectly at home there. [Laughs.] Funny. Well, then in Heidelberg, I began to study very seriously for my doctorate, and I got that.

[00:03:29.62]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  What did you do your doctoral work on? A particular artist?

[00:03:33.34]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  No, it was about German Baroque art.

[00:03:36.49]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  German Baroque art.

[00:03:37.33]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  I started that in Munich and finished it in Heidelberg. My thesis was about German Baroque sculpture, and I was very interested in the churches—the altars and pulpits—because all of them in that period form one very beautiful 18th century whole, and the Hof Baroque is great unity of style. And so I went a great deal to all the churches south of Munich like Franconia and Baumbach and all of that.

Now, the strange thing, of course, I could never use that again, because when I came to America, there were no Baroque churches, nor was it studied, nor was it really of great interest to art historians or museum exhibitions. I still have to see one great Baroque exhibition. I never have in this country. It's difficult to do, because you would have to have that sculpture, and the architecture so terribly important, too. Well, then I applied for a fellowship at Radcliffe College through the Institute of International Education.

[00:04:48.89]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  This was in 1932?

[00:04:51.86]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  I received it in '34, yes, and then came to Radcliffe as an exchange student. And the interesting thing is that in those days, there were only very few of these foreign exchange students. We were three in Radcliffe that year—a Chinese girl, an Italian girl, and myself, and that was all. Now, of course, there are hundreds of them. I came over with a group of German students. It was all somewhat organized. We came on the same boat, and then went all over the United States to various universities. And quite a few of the men were heard of again because they became important ambassadors. One became Chief of Protocol in Bonn, and so on. And of course, I continued my career from then on. Now, after that year, I was, of course, terribly interested in seeing more of the United States.

[00:05:52.30]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  This was 1935?

[00:05:53.98]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  That began in—let me see. Yes, that's right, in '35. And I traveled all by myself through the entire United States with very frequent stops. I started in New York, and the first stop was in Albany, and I came to Buffalo, and so on, Cleveland. And when I was in Seattle, I also went into Canada. And when I was in San Diego, I went into Mexico. And then came back to Washington—that was my first day in Washington, which I liked very, very much. And what I did on that trip, I studied the museums, the technique of installation. And I met all the museum directors of that period and their staff, and began to get very interested in museum management.

[00:06:53.31]

This actually started in Radcliffe because I took the so-called museum course. And the Professor [Paul –Ed.] Sachs, who is still fondly remembered by all the students he ever had who are now mostly museum directors—a perfectly marvelous, very dynamic person. The classes were mostly in his house. He had a huge living room, but we were only 16 people sitting around very comfortably. And then everybody was called upon to do certain things like seeing an exhibition, describing it, evaluating it, and so on.

[00:07:35.23]

And that is really when I became interested in exhibitions, because the class also organized an exhibition, which they usually did and still do, I believe. Professor Sachs, of course, is no longer there. But there are a number of efforts in various universities to imitate this kind of museum course, which is, of course, of the greatest importance. We spent one day with a registrar, another day with a librarian, and so on, learning about all the different positions in any museum. And since the Fogg Museum is a small one, one could manage that.

[00:08:13.03]

And then we went to New York on trips, and to Philadelphia and various other cities. And they had access to the most wonderful private collections, and it was that happy time when the great private collections were still in their homes. The Widener Collection was outside of Philadelphia. We were not allowed to the Barnes Collection at that time because they couldn't stand Professor Sachs.

But we did see in New York, for instance, the Altman Collection, the Bache Collection, the Lewison Collection. I mean, all the great ones that are now in museums were still in private homes. And that was, of course, terribly interesting. The Lehman Collection, for instance, that's now in the Met, was still entirely available on 53rd Street. And Mr. Lehman—they were all still living, so we had a terribly interesting time. Of course, we met Duveen and other dealers, and had some excellent ideas about what went on in the art field and in the auction and dealers establishments.

[00:09:30.07]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Excuse me. [Sneezes.] And so you really had a chance to see the art in its original setting, what we now would refer to as Old Master paintings in its collector's setting—a different process of connoisseurship than we know today?

[00:09:43.18]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  A great privilege. And everyone who went to that class still relishes the thought, because here we were in that beautiful estate of the Weideners outside of Philadelphia with all these fantastic, huge, great El Grecos and all that hanging on the wall, a small study with nothing but Rembrandt drawings and rare books and so on. That made an enormous impression on me, naturally.

[00:10:08.87]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  In the depths of the Depression, at that.

[00:10:10.82]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes.

[00:10:12.20]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  So you did not return to Germany then after you came here?

[00:10:15.41]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  No. I returned then too during the summer, but I never lived in Germany again. And in the meantime, of course, Hitler had come. In fact, he was already there when I left. But as I heard more and read more, it became clear to me that one would never have a career in the art field in Germany. And it was all really rather—it was not a tremendous soul-searching. It was quite natural that the opportunity was here, not there. That was perfectly clear. And so it was—

[00:10:49.88]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Did your parents remain behind in Germany?

[00:10:52.22]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  My parents did, because they preferred to live there where they had their friends and their house and all that. So it was quite natural for them, and I did not try to persuade them at all. And then they were quite content to see me come back from time to time. This is really what happened.

And then, of course, I wanted to see more of the country, as I said, and made this big trip. And then during that trip, I was offered quite a few positions. And it always amazed me. For instance, people asked me if I would teach. I said, "Yes, but I haven't learned how to be a teacher." [They laugh.] "Oh, but you are all right. You have studied so much and seen so much. You will be a very good teacher." This is how they looked at it. That would not be possible today. But they were not that many art historians and hardly any Ph.D.'s in the field. And therefore, it was a very different situation.

[00:11:50.91]

And finally, I got very interested in Seattle. There is a beautiful museum. I met the director who was also the founder and the main collector, Dr. Fuller. And then when I was invited to come back—because I said I must complete my tour—I then went to Seattle and became Assistant Director of the Seattle Art Museum. Let me see now. Here, I made a mistake. In Seattle, I did not —I stayed two years in Seattle, and one year in Portland, and then I became Assistant Director in charge of exhibitions at the American Federation of Arts.

[00:12:45.23]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  After you were in Portland?

[00:12:46.59]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes. I came back then.

[00:12:48.50]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  During the war, you came back to Washington?

[00:12:50.24]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes. And the Federation had a house of its own here on New Hampshire Avenue. It was a very nice, very dynamic director, Mr. Parker, Tom Parker. Mr. [Robert Woods –Ed.] Bliss was the president of the trustees. The work was very interesting because during the war, of course, the traveling exhibitions had stopped altogether. There was no transportation. Everything was geared towards the war effort.

[00:13:23.15]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Why did you decide to come back to Washington?

[00:13:25.49]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Well, I don't really know what made me do it. Yes, I think the fact that I was missing something on the West Coast. I wanted to be really in the middle of things where there were more museums, greater museums, art dealing, auctions. Everything seemed to be on the West [sic—presumably East] Coast. Also, it was naturally nearer to Europe so that I could make more trips. But I crossed the country quite frequently. And I was really perfectly happy here in Washington. I think that came when I finished my trip. I already met the people, and then they invited me to come back. And that really was the beginning of my career.

[00:14:12.78]

The Federation was here, and I stayed with them for four years. Then, they decided to move to New York, and invited the entire staff to come with them. And nobody could at that time. It was a very sad story for them; for us. Because just at that moment, I was engaged to be married to Mr. Pope. He was then the Assistant Director of the Freer Gallery, and I naturally wanted to stay here. And so I had to look for another job. And I tried just, I think, two or three things. And—

[00:15:01.04]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  During your time at the American Federation, you were, then, working largely with international traveling exhibitions?

[00:15:06.38]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  No. Then, it was much more American, and it was American shows going abroad also. See, one wanted to simply start things again, and all exhibitions were rather small. We also worked very closely with the then- government Office of Education. They made very small exhibitions that were presented in their own boxes in which they traveled. The traveling box was simply opened, the things were taken out and placed around, and then later on, they were put back into the box. It was something very simple.

[00:15:42.26]

Now that, for instance, was our neighbors. They were Canadian shows, and there were Mexican shows. And they contained everything—some art, some books, some records, some films, some slides, and so on. It was very well done, I must say. It could still be useful today, but it was all stopped. Well, then after the American Federation of Arts had moved, I was engaged by this Dr. Wetmore, who was then the head of the Smithsonian Institution. He was the secretary. And I started, then, their traveling exhibition service. In those four years, I had learned enough to know the techniques of simple exhibitions.

[00:16:28.95]

And gradually, of course, it became more ambitious and more complex. That had also to do with the economy. See, one could then afford it. The museums became more ambitious, also, and wanted more and better and bigger exhibitions, so this was all quite natural. And I had hoped from the beginning that the Smithsonian would use a great deal of their vast collections from which selections could be made for traveling exhibitions. But actually, hardly anything ever happened there. And when I look around now, I don't think it happens very much yet. The material somehow doesn't lend itself too well. After all, they are fantastic collections of birds. Well, you can't make an exhibition of birds—

[00:17:22.01]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Traveling birds. Migratory birds.

[00:17:24.59]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  —even for a natural history museum. I mean, at that time, I was not only working with art exhibitions, I was working with all kinds of possible exhibitions. Anything that was covered by the Smithsonian would also be all right for me. I built up the card file, and we did all the beginning things. And perhaps I had only one secretary, then two, and then six, and so on. It grew. But the only exhibition that I ever had from the Smithsonian was also my first there, and that was bark paintings from Arnhem Land, Australia.

[00:18:02.13]

There was one ethnologist on the staff who was very, very good in his field. He had collected this material himself. This of course, is true of the Smithsonian, and most of the scientists do not like to separate themselves from their collection. And so much of it is not really artistically valuable or beautiful. It's very interesting, but somehow, we just couldn't really manage many shows. They just wanted to sit on their collections. And after a while, I gave up. Some things would have been, perhaps, available, like very minor Oriental things that are now not in the Freer by any means, but in some ethnological department in the Smithsonian. That was not artistically interesting.

[00:18:57.49]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Where was your office at this time?

[00:18:59.46]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  It was in the old building, which is still there, right next door to the castle.

[00:19:07.23]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Oh, the Arts—

[00:19:08.07]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  The Arts and Industries building. There, I was in one of the four towers. We had the whole top floor of one of the towers, which was three flights up, and then the whole floor was subdivided very much like my office here now. But then more and more, I realized that this was, of course, a wonderful place for international shows, being the capital of the United States, and having a large number of embassies here, even though it was perhaps only half of what we now have. So many didn't exist at all. I had never heard their names.

[00:19:51.06]

But beginning then, perhaps, with Germany and France, England—the countries I knew well from my earlier studies and travels—I began to work with their cultural attachés, and they were quite interested in finding someone who was willing to help them, because it was really help for them. And it was particularly interesting that the German embassy was then re-established at that time. And they worked first from a hotel, from a suite in the—I think it was either the Willard Hotel or the Washington Hotel, something like that. Then, they got their first building, then their second before the new one was built only a few years ago. And they had very good educational ideas, and those were good shows to be imported to the United States.

[00:20:47.12]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  From Germany?

[00:20:47.96]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes, from Germany. That was one of the first things I did. And we were, again, still doing sort of comparatively simple things, like print shows, drawing shows, photography shows, things like that. But gradually, we branched out, and became more ambitious and then did also very good painting shows. Also at this point, the American government through the State Department had grants available for exhibitions, which were supposed to, quote, "re-educate the German people," quote. And they did that very well. Well, I'll talk to that for a minute. Let's turn it off.

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

[00:21:36.19]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  We were talking about the State Department, began to get you involved in traveling exhibitions for educational purposes abroad. And this would have been during the Cold War years.

[00:21:45.89]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Those exhibitions went to Germany and Austria, and they were all American art and architecture and design. That is what they felt they needed most, because so much had been destroyed—to give people an idea about good American architecture, buildings, office, apartments, and so on. And these were all photographic shows set up on stands and so on. Very easy to pack and ship. Not too heavy, but very well-researched by the very best people in the country.

[00:22:23.87]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  You were involved with Lois Bingham at the National Gallery at this point?

[00:22:27.30]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes.

[00:22:28.03]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  And in the show that launched the Congress Hall in Berlin in 1954, "The Nation of Nations" shows?

[00:22:34.01]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yeah. Well, something like that was certainly also included. Some of our shows were then gathered together because there was a huge show, and we presented that. Then also, for instance, "American Pottery Today." We would show American wallpaper. I made a big show on wallpaper.

[00:22:57.31]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  That sounds fascinating.

[00:22:58.49]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  It was a fascinating subject. And actually, they should have really been done here, too, but they were just sent off immediately and were used and reused in Germany. Sometimes, I saw my own show when I traveled. I was utterly amazed. They took such good care of them because they were valuable. They themselves had no shows traveling at all, and this was the only thing. The State Department abroad through their embassies and consulates arranged for the tours. I had nothing to do with that, actually. I delivered them at a certain point to New York, let's say. Off they went. From then on, it was their problem to send them from place to place. But they started all the big cities like Berlin and Vienna and so on.

[00:23:46.04]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Were you confronted with the same kinds of problems that the USIA shows were confronted with, where your selection of artists was under the scrutiny of the House Un-American Activities Committee? Did you have the same problems the USIA did in that?

[00:24:01.52]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  I don't really remember that as problems. I remember that it happened. I think once I found out what the criteria were, I could avoid being involved. Because I didn't want to show controversial things. I wanted to show pleasant things, really very good art, the best printmakers. There was such a choice of good artists that you didn't have to go into controversial things. I didn't want anything political. I never have had any political shows. I mean, maybe I would go as far as having Daumier lithographs, you know, but nothing of the moment. I didn't want anything that was obviously very ugly, although it was perhaps good art. But that did not seem to be a good idea for this particular purpose.

Also, then I began at the same time—I didn't have to do only that. I think I made about ten or twelve such exhibitions out of the $100,000, which the State Department gave me. I couldn't do it today. Today, we could barely make two of those. In fact, perhaps just one. But all the photography, all that was entirely possible—the construction also was ready. I think it was just something like $1,000 or $1,500 each.

[00:25:22.82]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Oh, amazing.

[00:25:24.49]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Well, the frames cost just maybe five dollars each and all that was. Everybody was marvelous about lending. In fact, I think we bought quite a few things because we thought they would probably never come back. It would be too complicated. So then they could just be shown abroad until they literally fell apart, and this is what we did. So, then—

[00:25:47.02]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  So then you were at the Smithsonian then until 1964, so quite a good long while.

[00:25:52.03]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  I stayed until '64, December. I resigned then, and then I started—with the help of friends—my own international exhibitions foundation.

[00:26:04.49]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Excuse me. While you were at the Smithsonian, in the last years of your position at SITES, were you involved with helping to bring shows to the National Gallery?

[00:26:13.67]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes. I had already started. There were already some very important shows. Several, in fact, came after I had left. One of the most important shows that I ever made called "The Time of Dürer," in drawings. It is an exhibition that you could never get today. The loans are so variable, so rare to have drawings by Dürer— a whole mass of it, and his followers—they wouldn't lend them today. There has been just too much activity. But I was so early in the game, and people had confidence. And we, I don't think, ever lost anything. It's really true.

[00:26:52.98]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Were you involved in helping to bring the Mona Lisa to the National Gallery?

[00:26:56.80]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  No. That was Malraux's idea.

[00:27:00.62]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  It was Malraux's and Mrs. Kennedy—

[00:27:01.58]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  It was between them, you know. And I was at the opening where I had this horrible experience where the President of the United States, namely Jack Kennedy, was addressing the guests, and nobody could hear him. Something had suddenly happened to the loudspeaker. Mr. Walker had tested it that very morning. Being the Director, everything was done to perfection. When the time came, it didn't work, and people continued to talk, and pay no attention to him. They were still standing around. They were not even sitting. And that was very, very difficult.

Then, shortly afterwards, I went there with the public, so to speak, because I wanted to see how they were handling it. And it was quite shocking, because people were allowed something two or three seconds in front of the picture. And you had to just move on, on, on, because these masses of tourists and Washingtonians had to be handled quickly. There were too many. In other words, you couldn't really see the picture at all. You couldn't study it. And also, it was, after all, an Italian picture brought by France as a great gesture. I was not too impressed by that, I must say.

[00:28:13.85]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Very symbolic.

[00:28:14.85]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  We did quite a few shows. Perhaps we could bring that up in another meeting, because I have a catalog of almost every show I ever did, whereas I do not have a list of the shows that I did during the Smithsonian period. Now, you may have one there. But when I left, I didn't take all that with me, so I don't have a single list. At least, I wouldn't know where to find it. And—

[00:28:41.39]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  You worked very closely with Mr. Walker quite a bit, though, didn't you?

[00:28:44.63]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Oh, I did. We became very good friends. And he respected very much what we were doing, and they could use some of these shows. My interest in Old Master drawings had started at the Fogg Museum, again, under the influence of Professor Sachs. And ever since, I made such exhibitions, and those were probably the ones that I showed in the National Gallery. One was called "Austrian Drawings—" no. I think it was called "Drawings from the Albertina," one of the most famous drawings collections in the world. But they sent only second-class drawings.

[00:29:26.45]

And I remember the then-Assistant Director, Mr. James, saying, "Austrian drawings are for the Austrians." But actually, they are very good ones, only they didn't send them. And this was one experience. Of course, I learned from that. Unless you have the very best, there is no use trying it. The work for the exhibition itself, even if you just had so many sheets of blank paper—it's the same work as if you have only Dürers or only Leonardos or only bad Austrian drawings. You have to frame it and map it and photograph it and write a catalog, all the same. And you have to pack it and pay for it. The insurance is less, yes, to be sure, but—

[00:30:16.49]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  The insurance has been quite complicated all along, hasn't it?

[00:30:19.16]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Oh, yes. Yes, it has. And I've worked always very, very closely with the embassies. [inaudible] was the ambassador. Usually, I did it this way. I went to Europe, made arrangements for a show. I negotiated, which was then also simpler—

[END OF TRACK AAA_pope81_6222_m]

[00:00:07.83]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  So then, doing what you are doing.

[00:00:13.69]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  So then you would speak to the Ambassador?

[00:00:15.63]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes. And then I would tell him—I didn't ask him for help. I didn't say to him, "What can I get from your country?" Because that usually would be the wrong thing. Then, it would go to his State Department, foreign office. They would decide only the most modern living artists should be presented. Old Masters—didn't really know how to go about it. So I never did it that way.

I made all the arrangements myself with the museums in Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, all over Europe, and sometime soon I began also with Japan. And then I would tell the embassy and say, "Would you please sponsor this show?" And then he would say, yes, of course. What does it involve? And I said, "It would only involve that you are lending your name, and it will appear in the catalog in our acknowledgments, and also, we would be delighted if you would attend the preview."

[00:01:14.68]

Later on, when I knew the Ambassadors better, I would also ask them if they would please give a luncheon or dinner, because we would always have a director of that museum abroad, and it was an honor for the director and for everybody. And that's very fitting. It should be done that way. Then, of course, I worked immediately with the cultural attaché who was usually in on the second meeting. And there, I learned, of course, that cultural attachés can be absolutely magnificent, or they can be just very what we always call " fatigue." Namely, they had no initiative. They would not really know our art field at all. The country frightened them because it was so big.

[00:01:57.28]

I began right from the beginning to say to each man as he arrived, "Travel as much as you can. Start right now. Go to Chicago day after tomorrow, and go to the West Coast as fast as you can. Because you are here probably for three or four years, and you just won't have the time later on. And also, the country is too big. You can't stay away long enough. You have to just make those quick trips out," which they then did. And that was also good for them, because then they realized where I was sending the shows. They had to know the Chicago Art Institute to know if it was suitable. And also, you see, so many cities didn't have good museums yet. There wasn't all the protection that one needed then and definitely not what we need now.

[00:02:43.66]

And so this has developed through the whole ground situation because the United States government would not give us indemnity, would not give us a grant unless our itinerary included only museums that were accredited by AFA, and that they knew to be absolutely reliable, and that had no insurance claim for more than $5,000 during the last year or two. And all these conditions we could always meet, because most of my very important shows could only go to about three museums, maybe five. And for this reason, I had to be very, very careful to see that we had the best, and we had people who knew how to handle these shows.

[00:03:39.49]

These museums, then—I sent a lot to Cleveland, quite a lot to San Francisco. Los Angeles still had not built a new building, and Fort Worth didn't exist at all. Dallas had an old building, quite good. And so it went all over the country. Certainly, there were all those three top museums that one wanted. First, I would always ask the National Gallery, then two more. It couldn't be too difficult.

Metropolitan took very few shows, but liked some of these very big drawing shows right from the start. They did. And they took one of Dürer and his time. And I also had several other very important shows that were ready at the time, or almost ready when I left. We have a very good catalog to prove it. I did all the work, but the Smithsonian did not see fit to give any credit to the person who organized the show and produced the catalog.

[00:04:39.94]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  That's unfortunate.

[00:04:41.10]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Well, c'est la vie. [They laugh.]

[00:04:42.98]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  I guess by that point, you got rather tired of the Smithsonian and decided perhaps you could grow better elsewhere.

[00:04:52.09]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  My successor was the woman who had been my bookkeeper and who obviously had been working against me. And she had absolutely no art training. This is what happens. And she was a very good bookkeeper and was daily in touch with the Smithsonian financial offices because it was, after all, very important. We handled it quite differently from today. We were really entirely dependent on private funds. We were not a government organization, and our positions were not government.

[00:05:26.15]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  They were trust—

[00:05:26.93]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  We paid actually our own postage, and everything was done outside. Photographs were made outside, not by Smithsonian photographers, and boxes were built outside by Security Storage Company. We also had a storeroom. Gradually, I think the person who really managed that was Dennis Gould, who persuaded the Smithsonian that it was actually one of their very, very legitimate functions, and that they should allow as much help as possible so the exhibitions wouldn't be too expensive. Naturally, if you can store them in your own building, in the basement or the attic, then that figure is out.

[00:06:09.49]

Insurance will always be there, anyway. That's true. But why shouldn't the Smithsonian photographer also do something for these exhibitions, which, after all, have always brought a great deal of recognition to the Smithsonian just as it did to AFA? AFA goes on, too. We are all on very good terms. I mean, we don't work exactly together, but we are also not very stiff competition, I would say. My feeling was always there is enough room for all of us. I mean, it is not Macy's and Gimbel's. There is enough room for all of us in the area of art. You can use dozens and dozens of the finest stores, so you can also use dozens of the finest traveling exhibition services.

[00:06:53.25]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Yes, indeed.

[00:06:53.40]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  And now, you have the state traveling exhibition services, and you have so many—Mills College sends out little shows, and so on. And for instance, [the state of –Ed.] Virginia has always impressed me very much with their very good state art program funded by city and county and state. They have done marvelous work for their museums, and I go there quite often. I'm going again tomorrow for the day with my husband. We look everything over. In the meantime, a new building, excellent exhibitions, and a wonderful traveling exhibition service.

For this reason, they take very little from us. Now and then, a very top show. That's what they like, even what you call a blockbuster. They like that because it actually brings in some money. But the small shows they know perfectly well how to make themselves, and they can send those around in their Art-mobile. We also worked on one Art-mobile. That was the South Texas Art-mobile, and that went only to very small communities.

[00:07:57.41]

And one had to be very careful what could go into such a bus and how long. One had to be very careful in one's selection there, naturally. It was well protected, nonetheless. There was certainly risk involved. Some years, always on the highway and stops in a small city with only two attendants, and no real armed guard. They had never heard of that. So we just sent some old things.

[00:08:24.01]

On the other hand, I never had a show that was not original material. I made a point of that. The Smithsonian always had those, and they are needed, and they are right. Those can go into the Art-mobile. Those can go into schools, libraries, and very small places. Nobody is worried about it there. And it can be excellent reproductions. And I even have two reproductions right here from a show that I made on the Japanese artist Hiroshige. They are so good you wouldn't really know that isn't perhaps an original. Why not? And if you like the picture—you can't hang your very finest possessions in your own office, so it's perfectly all right.

[00:09:08.25]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  So then you've been very involved in trying to bring a lot of really excellent art to a wide variety of the public, both in America and abroad, so I guess you could say that you believe in the humanist qualities of art, that art does educate.

[00:09:25.74]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  I certainly do, yes. There's no question about it. And after all, museums need them. The situation has changed a great, great deal. I would say especially in the last 15 years—and that's 15 years old here, the foundation. Our first show came in '61. Let me see. '64, '65. '65. And '66—'65, we were incorporated and had a Board of Trustees. Took me a whole year to do that. I didn't do it too fast. I asked one person after the other. I didn't make a list and ask all twelve all at once. I wanted to develop that most carefully. And I had wonderful people like William Milliken, among my first board members, and Mrs. Bliss, of Washington and several other very outstanding people.

Then, in '66, we had our first show, which was Chinese art from the collection of the King of Sweden. So we started at the top, didn't we? A marvelous collection by a private person who was absolutely wonderful to work with.

[00:10:32.96]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  His Majesty?

[00:10:33.60]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  [Inaudible] husband. Yes.

[00:10:35.21]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  The King?

[00:10:35.81]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes. Oh, he was marvelous. This was the grandfather of the present King of Sweden. The father of the present King was killed in a plane accident, so he became King rather in one way early and in another way late. The grandfather King stayed on very long because the grandson was too young. Now, all is well.

Well, the grandfather traveled a great deal officially or privately and went to China, and there watched excavations that were being made at an early stage when they built railroads, and he was fascinated. He started collecting, built up an excellent collection, and a fantastic library of his own. He knew dozens of languages himself. In one way or another, he met my husband when he was director of the Freer Gallery. He knew that gallery very well, and they had a very charming friendship. So every time we went to Sweden, we were invited to stay with the King, which was quite marvelous.

[00:11:42.89]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  In the royal palace?

[00:11:44.96]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Well, not in the royal palace but in one of the smaller palaces that were half an hour away, more or less in the country. And they were, of course, much nicer. The palace is very big and very formal. We went there—

[00:11:58.37]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  This other one was more gemütlichkeit.

[00:11:59.81]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  —for receptions, or we went to visit the King and see his collection, which was mostly there. But to live, and dine and so on—it was absolutely charming to be in this—One was called Sofiarud [ph] which is right opposite Denmark on the coast. And another is—what was it called? I can't remember now. Only a half an hour by car, quite hidden, and very simple, sort of a country like place, 18th century furniture and all that. Very, very charming. But there were some very formal occasions, which I will never forget, when the King opened an exhibition, for instance.

[00:12:41.10]

One was a marvelous show done by Professor Nordenthal [ph] who came quite often to the United States, and actually became a member of the staff of the University of Pittsburgh. And he temporarily then went back to Sweden. He did a show on Queen Christina. This interested the King very much, and he had a huge party, a dinner and heralds, with silver trumpets, and all of that, and white tie.

[00:13:16.19]

And the exhibition was utterly marvelous, filling the whole museum, the National Museum in Stockholm. This kind of thing was absolutely marvelous. These were my rewards. Salaries were not great. I liked this kind of life. I met the most interesting people here and abroad in connection with my work. And then sometimes, there were these absolutely fantastic privileges of meeting a King, and seeing him often under the most favorable circumstances. And we were really considered friends of the royal family. That was utterly marvelous.

[00:13:54.38]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  The Swedish royal family?

[00:13:55.79]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes.

[00:13:56.66]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  His second wife was actually one of King Edward VII daughters, wasn't she? Queen Maud was the daughter of King Edward VII.

[00:14:05.99]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes. They have always been very international in their marriages. And the present King is married to a German lady, you know. Queen Silvia is German. He met her during the Olympic games when she was his guide.

[00:14:20.96]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  That's very romantic, isn't it?

[00:14:22.46]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  And she is so charming a person whom every Swede loves, and she has already produced two children. And Princess Victoria is going to be eventually King—Queen, rather.

[00:14:32.27]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Princess Victoria?

[00:14:33.41]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yeah, she will succeed—

[00:14:34.55]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Queen Victoria of Sweden?

[00:14:36.05]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes. Because their law of inheritance—the firstborn child, regardless of whether it's a man or a woman, a male or a female, becomes the successor.

[00:14:49.67]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Not [inaudible] law.

[00:14:51.29]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Her brother will be waiting in line. He will be the second in line of succession, but he will not supersede her right away because he is a male. Very interesting, the whole story. Well, anyway, these were very marvelous times, and the trips were terribly interesting. I took almost always my husband, and I still do. We are married over 30 years, and we have made utterly marvelous trips together. We usually don't meet much during the day because I go after my official appointment, and he goes out to his. His, of course, are all in the Oriental field. But we go to auctions together, to dealers, very often to openings, lectures, whatever. We go together. So after six, we have our private life, and we travel abroad.

[00:15:45.66]

And one marvelous trip when Dr. Wetmore was secretary of the Smithsonian—my husband had not been all over Southeast Asia. There were several countries he had never visited. They felt that it was probably necessary for the Freer that the Director should know all this. So it was arranged that he should travel for eight months touring Southeast Asia, and I should accompany him. And in order to make that official, Dr. Wetmore appointed me my husband's secretary. At first, I sort of [inaudible].

[00:16:25.88]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  You didn't like the idea of being called his secretary.

[00:16:28.37]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  I didn't like it too much, but it was so funny, because they assumed I was just that, because I needed help, and there was no help. And I didn't type, but I took notes. And I put down measurements, and I did all kinds of practical things. I held things while they were being photographed and so on. And an awful lot happened, especially on one trip to Persia.

[00:16:50.12]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  When was this?

[00:16:52.26]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Now, Persia was in the late '50s, and then we started all through the '60s and '70s, almost every summer. I think this is our 20th trip or something like that, that we went abroad. And usually, our trip takes us to about eight or ten countries in two or three months, which is quite a lot. I usually stay in England longer than in other countries, because there are wonderful opportunities. There are marvelous museums. June is the most fantastic month there. You see everything and everybody, and you can refresh yourself and learn about new things, new artists, see even very good American shows there. The best Jamie Wyeth show or something like that is there.

It's quite interesting. And they have very lively, very good scholarly museum personnel from the directors down, as you know. And that has really always made it very interesting for me. Then, maybe we stop in Belgium and in France. Paris is really a necessity every year. I have two shows pending that are almost ready, and then I just go to see if everything is all right, if it's finished. Then, at the same time, I look for at least one or two new shows. It's very easy. You could get dozens and dozens of shows in one short trip, in a week, let's say. But that's not what you want, because you have to be very selective these days. First of all—

[00:18:35.85]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  These are working vacations, very much.

[00:18:38.11]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  No, they are not really vacations. I mean, even on Saturday or Sunday, it's mostly going to the country and visit one more collection, or going to Oxford or Cambridge, or visit a friend who has a beautiful castle full of pictures and that kind of thing. I mean, it's vacation in the sense that it's very fresh and different and no office routine, no telephone ringing all the time, no dictation.

[00:19:06.66]

My husband always travels with a typewriter, and I usually make notes of what I have seen during the day. That's important. You cannot remember it all. And then I type letters, memos, to my office very quickly. I mean, just striking over, and then they know exactly what I have been doing. Every few days, I write a long memo, maybe three or four pages. They then make excerpts from that or Xerox portions, put it in the right file, and everything is in order when I come back. It works very well.

[00:19:41.92]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  So your eye and your mind is very much the inventory of art that you may seize upon for a future collection, that you're constantly becoming aware of art in private collections and in museums abroad, so that when you have the idea to put together a show, you know where to go and get these things.

[00:20:01.92]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes. I mean, that is perhaps the most important thing. People always think that my connections are of the greatest importance to the whole job, knowing people all over. And some countries, I've never visited. I've never set foot into Africa. But if you wanted African art, I would go to London or to private collections in New York. I've already done the Tishman Collection years ago, and now the Metropolitan is doing a Tishman Collective for the first time. We did a marvelous show from Nigeria, and it was exactly the same people who then did the same show, which came—

[00:20:43.52]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  To the Corcoran.

[00:20:43.96]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  [Inaudible] exactly where it started last year. And it did go to the Metropolitan Museum, and I saw it in Detroit and in New York. And it started still somewhere else, and I forgot where. And it became very clear to me it was exactly the same show that I already had, but things had been added. And what had been added had not been excavated before. There were also marble ceilings had been discovered later where people didn't know what it was. And they could identify it and place it correctly. But the same man who made my show, who rejoiced in the name Ecco Eheu, was already—was still there. He made my show, and he made the present show.

[00:21:31.70]

So this showed that we were pioneers, of course, in many, many ways. We brought many shows to America for the very first time and even new types, even new kinds of shows. And these connections helped me enormously. I kept them up. I write quite a lot. I send catalogs "with compliments". And they're marvelous and very, very great privileges, and I don't have to ask a soul about accepting any show. I'm doing it entirely by myself. And in the Smithsonian, I was also, actually, very free. After Dr. Wetmore came, Dr. Carmichael, and Dr. Carmichael was extremely kind, friendly, understanding.

[00:22:17.49]

He saw in me an expert in her field, and let her do it. If she makes a mistake, it's her mistake, but I think she can do it. And I asked him literally just once, I think, about a show. I had been offered a very interesting, very good Picasso show that you would find very harmless today. But it contained quite a few of his erotic works. And I thought, well, I have to think about the name of the Smithsonian, the reputation. Is this right? After all, mainly, it is a scientific institution, and art is a sideline, really, especially the traveling exhibition services, a minor, minor function of this huge, marvelous organization.

[00:23:04.45]

So I asked him. And he said, "I agree with you. I think we better not take that." This was the only time, I think, in my long career—and I went to him because I wanted him to make the decision. And so I never had a Picasso show when I was at the Smithsonian. In fact, I never had one since, either. Now, there is another reason. I would like to have one. But it's not very complicated.

[00:23:30.00]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  And terribly expensive.

[00:23:31.59]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  And terribly expensive. And it's being done already. You see, the Fogg Museum had a very fine show of drawings recently. And there was a little show here, which was, again, only the erotic drawings and prints. And after all, you have done so much, and had thousands to choose from. There are so many other things, marvelous portraits or whatever. Anyway, now, it's really much by chance. I could still do one, but it would now be difficult to get, also because the Museum of Modern Art had the show so very long, and people are just tired of lending so much. So I probably will never make one, but then there are other things one can make.

[00:24:14.19]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  So Dillon Ripley was really the last Secretary of the Smithsonian that you had to deal with.

[00:24:19.69]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Well, he was—yes. He was the last, and he was only there one year, or even less. He came in '64, and I left in December '64. So I saw him only for a very short time. He also did not interfere with what I was doing, not at all. I mean—but I was careful on my own. I mean, I thought, is it suitable for the Smithsonian? Not only whether I liked it or whether I wanted to do it. My own taste is conservative, and I don't like far-out things and do not usually do them. There are other museums that do that much better.

[00:24:57.54]

The Museum of Modern Art does a fantastic job showing us what is the very latest, something I have never yet seen. They discover it on their trips. They go after it. They deal with artists. They know hundreds and thousands of them. I do not know many artists personally. Hockney was one of the living artists, but there are several others who are much more conservative with whom we have dealt. I mean, you all have you have to cut out your own work, your own job in accordance with your own background and taste, and that's what I have been doing.

[00:25:34.22]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  So then, you began this very unique venture of organizing international traveling shows on your own here in Washington, as you said, with the help of this board, and launched into what must be one of the few independent private ventures of its kind.

[00:25:52.04]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes, I suppose it is. The American Federation of Arts, which also started again after the war—and we had some very funny meetings with them. I attended some of their meetings here. Dennis Gould called me "the grandmother of the traveling exhibition services," which we all thought was marvelous. I'm in touch with him now occasionally because he's Dr. Hummer's Assistant Curator. But there are probably not too many. Though, on the other hand, what is happening now, there's another of these new development. More and more people think, ah, here's my bandwagon, and they jump on it. Art is in. I have connections. I know a duke or two. Why don't I make a show?

[00:26:38.34]

This has just happened a few months ago. A lady came in to say she would like to do a certain show, and she had the connection, that she had a journalistic background, not at all an art background. And it turned out that what she really wanted was a connection with an organization that knows how to organize, correspond, finance, and everything. That we can do ourselves. Ideas abound. We have far too much. I mean, there are files and files of ideas, and wonderful things that may or may not be done sometimes. We don't want to have too many shows at the same time.

[00:27:20.83]

Then, you have to have a larger staff. It's already quite crowded here. We cannot get more space in this building. Everybody is crowded in this building, and we don't want it to grow more and more. That is not the answer. I say better and better is the answer and also to meet the incredible challenges of today. That is what you must now do. But you have to concentrate on it. It was really child's play. I sometimes said, "Oh, I can organize this exhibition in one afternoon." I [inaudible]. I knew to whom to offer it. Here's the budget. I get it from so and so and so and so. Here's my guest director. And in one afternoon, it was all ready and could be given to someone else to do.

[00:28:04.86]

But, no, that time has gone. It's now very complicated. Now, what you have to do is first make the bookings. First, I mean, after your negotiation, or what you have. Then, you have to get the bookings, which is difficult because you have not yet got a list nor photographs, and we do not have a budget. But what we have found is that our friends among the museums have confidence in us, and they have blind confidence, shall we say. And therefore—do we have to stop right now?

[END OF TRACK AAA_pope81_6223_m]

[00:00:05.63]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  It was 1970, let's say, and we never did any fundraising. We now then said to a foreign country, could you help us, whether it was the catalog or something like that. But basically, we had the money we needed. The museums had the money to pay the rental fee. The rental fees were very low. I mean, there were literally exhibitions at AFA for $50. Then they became $150 and so on. But we even now, have one or two under $1,000, but that's already getting very difficult now. And the fees are now up to $25,000 for one booking, or even more.

[00:00:47.37]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  How much for the Chatsworth show, for example?

[00:00:49.19]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Chatsworth was something like $30,000, yes. And simply because even if you have indemnity, you do not have to take care of insurance. But sometimes they exempt something from the insurance. Therefore, they say, these three pictures you still have to insure yourself, commercially. There is also the $15,000 that has to be—what do they call it? Even if you have indemnity, you have to insure in the value of $15,000 yourself, commercially. But let's say now you find those museums. You want only three. I do it over the telephone or I see [inaudible]. Every time I come back from Europe, I make an appointment and tell him what I saw. And he is also so clear in what he wants, that he can even tell me right then and there, "This does not fit. No, I don't think I'm interested in that. This, I will bring up at my next meeting."

[00:01:46.70]

And so I usually have one or two exhibitions every year at the National Gallery, which I consider good. I couldn't have more, really. They have so many outside things. They also are approached by the embassies, and have to, in many cases, probably, make concessions, and are obliged. They cannot turn down everything from Egypt and so on, you know. They have to try what they—what can be done, which is of the highest possible quality. And they might perhaps, when something is offered to them, say, "Yes, we would love something from your country, but it is something else that we would want." You could do something like that.

[00:02:26.89]

We are also approached by a great many people—"we have a show for you," and in most cases, you cannot use that particular show. It is not right for you. So there are funny things like what I just told you about a person who just wants to, for the fun of it, make an exhibition, and it's sort of a form of self-aggrandizement, or even a source of income. Some look at it—well, I get a retainer. How wonderful. Well, that we don't need. We pay salaries to the staff here, and the staff here knows how to do it. And we have our own connections. We don't need the dukes, you know, so to speak. This could work under certain circumstances. But most of the time, it doesn't.

[00:03:14.05]

And we have another one where an exhibition has been offered to us. And, well, this man then shopped around. He went to Versailles. He went to AFA, perhaps others, and has not let us know yet what he decides. And he will be surprised to hear when the time comes that we don't want to show. He hasn't really offered it to us yet. First, he has to offer it to us. When he does that, he will be very disappointed because we might say no. This is how it goes. Well, then the great difficulty today is, of course, the minute you have your itinerary, National Gallery, Fort Worth, Los Angeles, let's say, you rush out to get a corporate sponsor. And he says, well, you know, I would take it, but I absolutely have to have Oklahoma City, or I must have New York. Almost—New York is almost absolutely impossible to get, but we try. And the Metropolitan has more shows than they can possibly handle.

[00:04:17.10]

It's a wild scramble. And one chases the other, you know, and that brings in the public, and that brings in the entrance fees and so on. This is how it goes today. If you have a blockbuster like Titian, they all want it. And the whole situation has changed completely. Then after we had that corporate sponsor, or at the same time, we asked for indemnity, the deadline for any aid comes, only one a year, which we very much regret. It should definitely be two, so that you don't—sometimes you fall between, and then it's too late, because you weren't absolutely ready, which is not your fault. Sometimes people aren't ready. You cable, you write, you phone. We do an awful lot over the phone now, although that has changed.

[00:05:08.54]

Formerly, we hardly made any long-distance calls. One didn't make any calls to foreign countries at all. When necessary, you had letters, and they answered the letter. Today, nobody answers the letters. It's very difficult. Some well-educated, older people still answer, but I still write a lot of letters because an awful lot has to be done in writing. Otherwise, there can be horrible misunderstandings. We do not have formal legal contracts at all. But what we do have is letter contracts with the lender. Then that is—if they have only one lender, or we have loan forms in duplicate, which one has to be returned to us. The other is kept by the lender.

[00:05:54.84]

For instance, we had one show recently—it was 45 lenders. And that's, of course, an enormous amount of trouble. You start out writing a form letter. Let's say they all say yes. Then we write again and say, "How wonderful. Please fill in this form." Then it turns out they can't fulfill all the conditions, or don't like them all. Then they bring in their own conditions. For instance, "I would like this drawing or this painting to be returned after the first showing. I don't want it to go to three places." All of this. Finally, you end up with a package about one or two inches high of correspondence with each individual lender, which is just terrible. They have become then very complicated, and they also make mistakes sometimes. There can be language difficulties.

[00:06:47.22]

For instance, our Palaghiaccio show, which is my next show at the National Gallery—May 15 is the opening, May 17 the public, we had to do the entire correspondence in Italian. The Italian embassy had to help us. The Papal Nuncios had to help us to get one loan from the Cathedral of Bologna. And you just had to have these drawings to make the show complete, to make it wonderful. And there was no other way but to do it this way.

[00:07:19.26]

And it went right on 'til last week. The catalog had to go to the printer, you know? And even then there were changes, so it was terribly complicated. But we managed it in a way. We hate to put in little slips with corrections because they're always lost and fluttered down on the floor. But in one way or another, we managed it. And I have a wonderful editor, Tammy Swanly, and she manages to deal with the writers and the lenders and everybody. Just fabulous.

[00:07:54.81]

Then, of course, you also want to have the grants for your catalogs, which we have. And then you want a foundation, maybe, in addition to the corporate sponsor. And maybe the government from the country gives you a grant, too, because they feel it's part of their public relations. It's good for the country and the embassy. With the Palaghiaccio, it's under the sponsorship of the Italian ambassador. And directly after the opening, he gives a dinner. That's like the good old days.

And the Italian government has made a small grant, and the corporate sponsor is Fiat. I mean, there are certain, very logical things. And after all, the United States does business with a vast number of countries, including, for instance, Japan. It really should not be at all difficult to get a Japanese grant, and we have had quite a few. Each show has at least one grant from Japan. They have also Japan-America friendship collections, you know, collections. And all of that works together.

[00:09:02.32]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Do you think that this corporate grant has taken the place of the individual patron, as opposed to the old days, when we had—

[00:09:10.62]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  [Inaudible]

[00:09:11.97]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  —from Medici, on, or even down as far as, say, the Duke of Devonshire? But now that the corporate grant has taken over for sponsoring and funding this kind of activity, so that we're out of the age of the individual.

[00:09:25.74]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  See, and formerly, we didn't even ask the individual, either. There was sort of an in-between period, but even now, for instance, I think Palaghiaccio is one show that's had four or five grants, and the more the better, naturally. Then what happens is we can—the rental fee might be $25,000, but then it comes down to $18 [thousand], or something like that. That looks better.

[00:09:47.97]

And the museum still has to pay, in addition, the transportation to the next place, which we collate at the end of the tour. Otherwise, you find that one man has to send it from Chicago to Seattle, and the other has to send it only from New York to Boston, so we even it out at the end of the tour, which is very democratic. And one should do that. And as I said, you still find a lot of possibilities for shows. They often know you. Some shows, like maybe Chatsworth, which we then showed in London at the end, has certainly helped us enormously to really be known. "Ah, there's Mrs. Pope. Well, I didn't know she was doing that." All the time, you know? "Oh, Mrs. Pope, this is this your show?"

[00:10:38.25]

When we are at the National Gallery, you know, I am at the opening. "Oh, hello. How do you like the show? Oh, this is this your show? Oh, I had no idea." People are not that perceptive, are they? And there it is. And you wonder how many read the catalog and see the acknowledgment, and even the newspaper. You might wait for the first article in the Post and the Star. There may not be a word about international exhibition. It is—very often, they put it in the last paragraph, and then the editor cuts it off, or they think that we are commercial and profit making—whatever the mistake may be—

[00:11:18.06]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  You are a non-profit organization?

[00:11:19.75]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes, yes. Otherwise, we wouldn't get these government grants, you see? We have a very good IRS rating, and we can get government grants, and indemnity and all of that as a result of this very important situation. I think today—

[00:11:36.66]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  That is quite interesting. So then you've given yourself to this, really, in a very selfless way, because you're merely taking salary. You're not in a profit-making business, so you're not a business woman. You are a functioning art historian.

[00:11:48.67]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  That's true. At the same time, we have to be businesslike to the extent, and the government recognizes that you can put in something that you could call "overhead." You never call it profit, naturally, because it isn't a profit. Our trustees do not get their dividends, you know? And they work without any remuneration, happily, because they all come to Washington for meetings and so on, without charging us, which is very nice. Because everything today—you have to watch every penny, with this incredible inflation. And now we pay at least $6,000 just for frames for a show. It's unbelievable. And the transportation from one place to another—it's absolutely fantastic to see.

[00:12:40.69]

Naturally, we use only the very best firms, the best we know, because they have a guarantee. You cannot go out to the cheapest firms. Then you have no safety, probably, no security. So we have been working for a long, long time with security storage, all along, at AFA, and Smithsonian, and here at the beginning—we used them. Now we are using some other people as well, because—and it's a different kind of transportation now, too. You see, all these things have changed. Now it's almost all by plane, which it wasn't, formerly. So you need a different company and a different method of packing and shipping.

[00:13:22.19]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  So since 1966, when you've been on your own, you've been doing this wide variety of shows, including several different eras and epochs of art. And you have done three shows of collections from The Dukes of Devonshire's collections at Chatsworth. You've done—

[00:13:42.25]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Chatsworth was the fourth. Well, [inaudible] the fourth. We had two of old master drawings in successive years. And then we had one of Inigo Jones. There was wonderful 16th century stage and costume designs. And then the Duke himself suggested, why don't we make a big show of all the best treasures from Chatsworth? He also thought up the name, "Treasures from Chatsworth, the Devonshire Inheritance." It was really aptly marvelous.

[00:14:14.11]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  How did you first come to meet His Grace?

[00:14:18.58]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  I don't really know. It must have been in England, and perhaps in connection with the launch show of drawings in general, where our guest director said you must have this particular drawing from Chatsworth. Probably started that way, you know? And I really will have to think about it.

[00:14:40.55]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  So you've worked quite closely with him, though?

[00:14:42.34]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Oh, all the time. And I stayed overnight there, too, because it—now, it's easier because there is a wonderful freeway where you can travel by car very easily. Mostly by train is—in England, is really the best, and so comfortable. And then it was a little too far, too. You couldn't do it in one day, see. You had too much to do. And the house has more than 350 rooms, so you really were very, very busy. And then of course, the same as—the Devonshire collection is one on which we work at the same time as the [inaudible], so we were all surrounded by nobility. [Laughs.]

[00:15:30.19]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  The entire time. Well, when you were organizing the Chatsworth show, did you select Sir Anthony Blunt to write the introduction to that catalog?

[00:15:39.88]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative], yes. And he was selected because he definitely was the best man to do it.

[00:15:44.48]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  And this was before all of the—

[00:15:46.27]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  This was, of course, before. And I don't think it could have happened otherwise. After that, we would not have started. It was too complicated. But it was all done, and the show was ready to be shipped when this happened. See, it started in this country, I think, in December, and in November, the whole story came out in the papers. Catalog was already printed. Nothing could be changed. And, you know, if people were broad-minded enough to say if he is the best art history England has, or one of the best, and he knows everybody, he knows everything, he has the confidence of the queen, everything is going to be all right. We had a meeting. We mentioned several names. Oh, Anthony Blunt is really our man.

[00:16:35.99]

And then it just stayed. The last time we were in Chatsworth, he was also there. There were three days of really hard work because the printer came. Everybody came, publicity, and a film man and so on, photographer. The whole house was swarming with people working on different aspects of the show. And we had a real, very formal meeting where the Duke presided. And then we were on the train on the way back, with Anthony Blunt, and you know, not one suspicion in the world. I would have never, never thought. Then when I came back to England, "Oh, you didn't know? Oh, that was quite well-known." But I bet it was really people who always liked to know better and, you know, sooner than others. I can't believe that many people knew this, and that it never came out before.

[00:17:31.22]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Were you disappointed, or was it am embarrassment in light of the catalog?

[00:17:36.77]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  No, it really—I don't think it turned out to be an embarrassment. The more difficult situation was then when we finally took the show to England, because we suggested to the Duke, wouldn't it be a good idea to have it in London. There, thousands of people see it, who this coming summer then will go to Chatsworth. You will have many more visitors, and that will be good for entrance fees, and all those things. It is a certain source of income, like the Duke of Bedford and so on. It's always source of income and probably all adds up.

[00:18:12.68]

He liked the idea, and it was a great success in London. But they ordered only 50 copies of the catalog, which we thought was ridiculous for the city of London. And we found then that all along, they ordered more and more, 300 more, then 300 more. And so as a result, it's practically sold out. We may have a few more copies. But of course, I was terribly disappointed. Just imagine how the Queen must have felt, you know? That was—she may have known it earlier, but there was not going to be any prosecution. The only thing she did instantly—she stripped him of his knighthood. That happened the day after. And you know, it came out in that little sheet that's called The Private Eye. They just dig for dirt. And when they find it, they are absolutely delighted. There is a story.

[00:19:08.51]

And then of course, the Times saw that and "My God, how can this be?" And did some research. And then everything—all hell broke loose, as one says. And of course, they looked into Whitehall, and what have you got? And then all kinds of very suspicious things and letters and everything came into the open. And then came this book, you know? Oh, the book brought it out, of course, first, yes. Then came The Private Eye, and then came the London Times. And this book, which I then read—it was not yet out in this country. I bought it in England, and found it, of course, interesting, though tedious at times. And finally, his name was not mentioned in that book yet. But people began to think, "the false man," you know. Who is it? Who can it be?

[00:20:02.19]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  And it was Sir Anthony Blunt. But there was a very interesting article in the New Yorker magazine by George Steiner on the entire situation and whether or not Blunt was indeed acting in his right conscience, and was indeed a great embarrassment to the royal family, since he'd been so closely connected with their collection.

[00:20:21.48]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Really. I mean, going in and out of the palace, as well, you know, and all of that. No, it was a very, very sad story. I've never met a spy knowingly before, but now I know I have met one. And he was very pleasant to work with, excellent, on time, everything delivered punctiliously and in perfect condition. I mean, it was a joy to work with this particular guest director.

[00:20:50.94]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Oh, the introduction itself, which I read in your catalog, is a masterpiece of small prose. Very tight little essay.

[00:20:59.31]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  There was nothing at all wrong. No suspicion whatsoever. We never talked once about anything political. Didn't exist at all. All was art, all was Chatsworth. That was that.

[00:21:09.88]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  There's no—well, there's really no reason why one's political convictions should spill over into one's art interest, or why one's political interests in one area means that one can't be a good art historian. One might very well able to be a—

[00:21:22.96]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  There may be others; we just don't know. [They laugh.]

[00:21:25.78]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  We may both be spies. [They laugh.] I doubt it.

[00:21:29.83]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Oh, my.

[00:21:30.64]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  But you've worked with some great modern collections, too. You've had a show of David Hockney's work. Was this your idea?

[00:21:37.84]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes, because I saw maybe a collection or an exhibition in England, and then said, "Fine, this would be marvelous for us. And who handles his work? And that's how it's done." And you meet him, and then everybody—he had not had a show in America. That was the amazing thing, you know? Because now he is very well-known, and he's had at least 15 bookings of that show.

[00:22:02.71]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  This was the show of Hockney's drawings and watercolors.

[00:22:06.25]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes.

[00:22:06.67]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  Wasn't it? And it was at the Hirshhorn?

[00:22:08.50]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Yes. [Cross talk.]

[00:22:10.16]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  And you met Hockney himself?

[00:22:11.74]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  Ripley liked it very much. And he came for that. And we all, of course, fraternized and had lunch and dinner. And I went to—it started in New Haven at the Mellon Museum there, because that is a museum of British Art. It was the first time that they had an outside show. And it was also the first time that they had a living artist, so we were very pleased. The students absolutely loved it. It was of their own time and place. They could identify with it beautifully. And he goes right on. There's a marvelous show in New York right now of his theater design.

[00:22:48.82]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  He's an interesting artist, I feel, because he's such a tight draftsman, and he manages to cover the range between abstraction and realism so well, I feel.

[00:22:59.77]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  And even surrealism sometimes.

[00:23:01.39]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  And even surrealism, definitely.

[00:23:03.16]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  And then an awful lot is travel reminiscences. You know, ours was called "Travels with Pen, Ink," and—what was the third? [Laughs.] I can't remember. Something else.

[00:23:22.43]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  And watercolor?

[00:23:23.21]

ANNEMARIE POPE:  One more? No, no. [Inaudible] and brush, something like that. Anyway, that was his title. He had decided it. Usually, we start out with the working title, and we use that for months, even years. Then when we come close to the catalog, we say, now, let's find a good title, a really good one. Now, have you got enough? I think we should probably stop now, shouldn't we?

[00:23:46.87]

ESTILL CURTIS PENNINGTON:  All right.

[END OF TRACK AAA_pope81_6224_m]

[END OF INTERVIEW.]