Oral history interview with Peterpaul Ott, 1965 June 24

Transcript

Preface

The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Peterpaul Ott on June 24, 1965. The interview took place in Laguna Beach, California, and was conducted by Betty Lochrie Hoag McGlynn for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. This interview is part of the Archives of American Art's New Deal and the Arts project.

The original transcript was edited. The sound quality for this interview is poor throughout due to background noise and rendered some words inaudible. In 2021 the Archives retranscribed the original audio and attempted to create a verbatim transcript. Additional information from the original transcript has been added in brackets and given an –Ed. attribution. The reader should bear in mind that they are reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose.

Interview

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is good because you can collect supports and depiction [ph]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Sure. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I can probably not change anymore. Is it already on? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah, it is on. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It's on, yeah.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Inaudible] anything we want. This is Betty Lochrie Hoag on June 24, 1965, interviewing the artist, Peterpaul Ott in his studio in Laguna Beach. And that is spelled P-E-T-E-R-P-A-U-L in one word, I believe. Ott, O-T-T. And Mr. Ott, do you use a middle name or initial letter? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, this was the middle name, Paul, and I put that together because there was another Paul Ott and I don't like to be associated with him. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Wow [laughs]. That's a very good reason. I think it looks very nice that way. I liked it. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I put it together and it swings. It has melody, it has harmony, and it sounds okay. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah, and I like it especially because it's the name of my husband and my oldest son together. 

[Cross talk.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Oh, there we go. Good. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. [Laughs.] Well, Mr. Ott was head of the sculpture section of the Project in Chicago. And several of the artists have told me about him and I've been looking forward to hearing all about his experiences there. But before we talk about it, I'd like to ask him about his own life. Mr. Ott, would you tell us where you were born and when, if you care to? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I have to make the whole history now [inaudible]? 

[Cross talk.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  The whole thing, right? [From the beginning. (ph)] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That will take a whole—all right. I will see if I can make it short enough.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Good. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  You want to have the date and the year and [the rest (ph)]?  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah, and the place. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  All right. I'm fortunate to have three birthdays, the fourth, the fifth and the sixth.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, how did you get those [laughs]? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  The mother had it always under sixth, but the midwife forgot and put down the fourth and so, I had been celebrating it always under sixth. And when I got my diploma from the school, they told me I was born on the fourth. So, since that time, I'm celebrating it three days— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  What month? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —especially for—oh, June. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Of June. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  June [18]95. I'm quite old. I'm 80 now. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Wow. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Does it [make it (ph)] 80? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  You do not look 80. [Inaudible]— 

[Cross talk.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, of course not, I'm 60. So, you figure it out. [Laughs.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] Oh, dear. My arithmetic goes slow. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, no, no, it's 70. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Makes you 70? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Laughs.] Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] Where were you born? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In Pilsen where the good beer comes from which had been Bohemia, belonged to Australia, and now it is Czechoslovakia. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And were there other artists in your family? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yeah, I think my father had the artistic ability although he was a tailor, but he got always the very heavy—I mean, I [inaudible] should say heavy, the very hard customers to please and to cut the size of the garments. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Actually designing them. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Designing them, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And he was a very jolly fellow, and he was whistling the whole day and singing. I think I have it from him, and fantastic things I have from mother, I suppose. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  When did you start doing any artwork? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Already when I was a boy. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  A child? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. In school, of course, but it was like this. I could not beat the other students in all those great, let's say, in all those—how do you call that? Reading, writing, arithmetic?  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative]. The academic. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  The academics. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I was quite way back but I said to myself, I have to beat them in something, and so I picked up the painting and drawing. And of course, nobody could beat me in those things, especially done in those things which do not count when it comes to graduation. So, I was very good in singing. And in gymnastic in my—for my size. I was always the last one on the left side and— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Because you were shorter than the others? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, I was smallest. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  The smallest. So, this is—and I liked it very much and then the teacher did—the drawing teacher, painting teacher which we had, he usually set—when he set a task for the whole class, his last sentence would be then always, "And Ott, you go ahead and draw and paint what you want and how you want." Of course, he— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  That was good advice, wasn't it? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It was even so he—you see, he could not criticize me [laughs] because he was not good in art. 

[00:05:03] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN: [Laughs.] I see. Was this in the equivalent of our public school? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, public in high school. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  In high school? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And then did you go onto an art school? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Then I—yes, then I went to the kunstgewerbeschule. That is, let's see, Royal Academy of Applied and Fine Arts.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  In— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In Dresden. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —[inaudible]? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  In Dresden? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I'm sorry, yes. I was four years when my parents moved to Dresden. I got into school. Dresden is the capital city of Saxony. [Inaudible.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  And—yes, go ahead. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And—yes. I just wondered, I know that you, of course, are a sculptor and I didn't know if you did other kinds of painting first or what's your— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. No, I had to be good in drawing and painting and craftsmanship. Before you can become a sculptor, you have to be a painter too, not the other way around.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah, that's wonderful.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  And I made an examination on the school, and they found out that, of course, I went over with flying colors, but they said I'm better in sculptural things. And so they gave me to a master to become an apprentice and I was an apprentice for four and a half years. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  What was his name? Do you know? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In Dresden. Kurt Feuerriegel for one year and he took them over [inaudible] and then I got to Kurt Mattes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  M-A-T-T-E-S? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  M-A-T-T-E-S, Mattes, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN: And Kurt Feuerriegel, do you remember how to spell it? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Ah, that's a hard one [laughs]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Hard one [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Feuerriegel.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  F-R-E-I— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  F-E-U-E-R-R-I-E-G-E-L. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Good. Thank you very much. Because I'd never be able to make corrections [on those with that one (ph)]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And when you graduated from this school, did you go into the profession for your work? 

PETERPAUL OTT: Yes, Professor Gross took me under his wings and gave me a commission—that is, not a commission. I worked for him as an assistant in his private studio and this was quite an honor because there are about 30 students of his class waiting for that opportunity and I got it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, how wonderful. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That was very good, and I learned a whole lot. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. Oh, which man was he? Now, I didn't [inaudible]— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He was Professor Karl Gross. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Professor. G-R-O-S-S? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  G-R-O-S-S, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And Karl, K-A-R-L? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And how long were you with him? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And he was also—he became director of the school, of the academy. And I was with him exactly a year because I was called to the colors— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —in World War I and I went to the Austrian regiment with the [inaudible] regiment 35. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  Our regiment got quite some [inaudible]. We had been attached to the island division which did quite big damages to the Russians at that time. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  This was on the Eastern Front of the war? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Eastern Front, yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And were you in the— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In the [inaudible]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —in the Army quite a while? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, for—until the end. Until November 1918.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  It was hard then to get any job because—let's say, yes, job. So, I went to the academy and studied there. It was then the—formerly, it was the Royal Academy. It became then the State Academy of Fine Arts. I studied there under the tutelage of—it is unimportant now perhaps. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I think it's very important. The whole idea is that if some student is doing a work on this, he wants to look up the records—if you remember. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, sure, I do remember. Guhr. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  G-U— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  G-U-H-R. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And with Professor Gross again as a student, although I had been in his private [ph]—and with Albiker. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  O-T-T? No, A— 

[00:10:04] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No. Albiker? That is—that would be A-L-B-I-C-K-E-R. [sic Karl Albiker ‑Ed.] He was a student of Rodin. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  R-O-D-I-N, Rodin? 

PETERPAUL OTT: Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes [laughs]. I wanted to make sure I [inaudible]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes [laughs]. [In Paris. (ph)] That's true. And he gave me about the most, Professor Albiker. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He was a very, very fine teacher and an extremely fine artist-sculptor. And wood carving with Professor Winde. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  W-I-N-D-E-R? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  W-I-N-D— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Okay. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Winde, with e on the end. No r. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And you were here about how long? Three or four years until things got settled in the [inaudible]— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, over two years, I was in the academy and then I went for myself and opened a studio in Chemnitz. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Okay [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  C-H-E-M-N-I-T-Z. I don't—I always make a mistake with the third letter and with the last letter. So, the first is the third letter from the alphabet [laughs], and the end z is the last letter of the alphabet. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  That's your hardest word, then [inaudible] [laughs]? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, it is [laughs]. 

[Cross talk.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Were you doing sculptures— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I had very fine commissions, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —individual pieces? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, individual pieces. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It wasn't applied [ph] sculptor for buildings or anything like that? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Well, no, wait a minute. Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  A sculptor is—I am especially an architectural sculptor. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  You are? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, that's interesting. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Because that makes it a sculptor. In my free time, I will make figures and so for my own pleasure. And today, I have very much free time. This is why you can see all those figures here.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. Much [ph] work here. Wonderful. Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Inaudible.] 

[Recorder stops, restarts.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Oh, this sounds awful [ph]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Very good. 

PETERPAUL OTT:   This sounds awful [ph]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I'm amazed at the number of things that you have around, how long have you been retired? I presume that was what you meant [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Laughs.] No, not actually retired. An artist never retires.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  No. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I keep on and that keeps me young. As I told you, I'm only 60, actually 80. I had to put that in again [laughs]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It's great to see you doing so many lovely things. [Inaudible.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, you see the other people they retire, sit down, and then they die. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. When you retire that way, it is death, isn't it? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Had you done any architectural sculpture at the academy? The State Academy? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, there you study. But when I was—when I had my own studio in Chemnitz, there I've worked for architects and made quite a number of architectural pieces and also war memorials. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. I see. Now, I'm asking about that because I know that you did both type of thing for the Project later and I wondered— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN: —if you'd had experience doing it before you started. A lot of people at that time went into the Project to learn things on it really. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is true. I was fortunate I had commissions for the government, for the federal government and post offices. And then when they heard that I was out of work, they offered me the position at the Federal Art Project. And our director made me right away a supervisor, with the background I had. And so, we had quite some youngsters and sculptors and woodcarvers and of course, painters. I'm speaking now only of my own Project.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And they learned a whole lot. I think this was a wonderful thing to create the Federal Art Project under the WPA. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, certainly, it was marvelous for the sculptors under you to have the experience of working with you. It would be almost like going to school to have a master to teach them doing the work. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I think this is about drive because they learned a whole lot and even if they will not have seen it at the moment, they will see it now— 

[00:15:01] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —what they learned. That is true. It was actually a school too for them. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. Certainly, someone like Mr. Freund has stated this on the tape with great gratitude towards you— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —and expressed that very thought. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He would. And I had a very fine—I had a wonderful personnel on my Project.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And I've worked with them, and I can make even a little bit of joke. I always said, "Take your time because we want to turn out good things." 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Good.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  "And stop working before you sweat." Of course, we never know when we sweat so they kept on working.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But I could also rely on them because schools and so on, they had a certain date to meet an unveiling or whatnot. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  And then I said, "This has to be finished by this date," and they never let me down. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Isn't that wonderful? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And this is important. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. About how many did you have working for you? Do you remember now? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  About 24, I would say I had. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  My goodness. That was a large group. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, sculptors. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And [of course (ph)] men and women, both? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, that is true. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And this was just the sculpture project? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  You had nothing to do with easel or lithograph or any of the other things that went on? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, no, no. At that time, we had 13 supervisors. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Thirteen? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And the painters, of course, they took over. [Inaudible.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, did you have a headquarters where you did all of your work? Did they provide a building? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, in Chicago.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  We had to move once. I don't know the name of the building, but it was near the lake. A very [well-lighted ‑Ed.] big building and we had about one to three stories.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  My goodness. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And a big—yes, and a big house, big building. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And you were working in all medium then. Woodcarving and— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. And we had another supervisor for the stone carvers. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, you did? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  We have some sculptors and stone carvers and I had two sculptors and woodcarvers. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. Well, I want to be sure I understand this then: sculptor and stone carvers with one of the 13, like easel painting would be and— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is correct, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —and sculptors and woodcarvers would be another. Do you remember who had the sculptor and stone carvers? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, [Shoshane ‑Ed.]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Shoshane ‑Ed.], I've heard that name from one of the artists. [C-H-E-I-N-G (ph)]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It's a French man. He came from Paris. And he did very fine work too. A very good sculptor. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Hadn't he been at the Chicago Institute before? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, but I think he is now with the Chicago Art Institute. [Inaudible], yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. [Inaudible] for some reason. 

[Cross talk.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I do not know—yes, I do not know if he's still on, but he had been there. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. We have a gap here of about 20 years that I'd like to account for before we go into more about the Project because I have you at the end of the war, opening your own studio, and then the Project you probably went into around '45 or so, [didn't you (ph)]? I mean, '35. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Well, I was in Chemnitz until the end of '23. And in January '24, I landed in New York. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Now, why did you happen to come here? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  My brother had been here and sent me a ticket.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And it was not so easy to get along in Europe. We had the depression. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN: Oh. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And it came already so far that one silver mark became 1 billion paper mark.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, isn't that terrible. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But the billion is a bigger billion than you have. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, it is? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, because we have million and then milliard and then billion. And you come from the million right away to the billion. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  So, I don't know how many zeroes there would be if you want to say 1 billion [laughs]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Anyway, it probably meant a piece of bread cost about $10 or something like that? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Yes, it would come to that.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  I wanted to buy a suit. 

[00:19:59] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And I was working for three months, and I even had to borrow money in order to buy a suit and I gave the whole check of three months' work. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Inaudible.] My heaven. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is expensive. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It certainly is. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  We had been paid with paper marks, but we had to pay world [ph] mark prices.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And it is doing it now again.  

[Cross talk.] 

My nephew just came over and he told me. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  For heaven's sake. Well, I hope something would happen [to curb it (ph)] before it gets out of hand. [Inaudible.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Inaudible.] If that breaks again, we will have a very, very bad time [over there (ph)]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Had your brother lined up any commissions for you in New York?  

PETERPAUL OTT:  Oh, no. I came here in order to study again but my first job was already on the second day, and I was working as a woodcarver in a factory where they made furnitures in certain styles of, oh, let's say, Louis XIV, XV, and XVI. That Baroque and Rococo [inaudible]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. How long were you there? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Not long because I— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  You didn't like it [laughs]? 

[Cross talk.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  You had to finish it up.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  So, there was a very fine offer in the paper as a foreman in a—as a foreman and sculptor at the Terra Cotta Company and I applied for that but not having knowledge of the English language—I did not speak a word—they could not give me the foreman job but said they would hire me as a sculptor, and they did. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  What kind of company was it? I didn't catch it. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Atlantic Terra Cotta Company in Tottenville. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Atlantic Terra Cotta? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. In Atlanticville [ph]? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In Tottenville. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, Tottenville. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Tottenville. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Is that in New York? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  T-O-T-T. That is on Staten Island, New York. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And there I worked for two years. Then I heard of a sculptor union—modeler and sculptor union in New York. And I went to New York City, made an examination. And was admitted to that union and became then a sculptor and modeler from the union. And got different positions in those different studios.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It had to be union jobs, so to speak.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. They found the work and got the [inaudible]— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, [they must have had (ph)]— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —set the price and all of it. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —at the commission's entry there working. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  I was also working then in Boston and in Philadelphia. And then there was no work for me, and I went to the studio of Alexander Archipenko.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, really. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I studied with him. He was very pleased with my work. Whenever a new visitor came, he would show them my work. He would come [laughs] across the studio. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Wow. Mr. Ott, was this mostly metalwork with Archipenko? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, working in clay.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  In clay. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Clay and plasterline [ph].  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, he was already a very outstanding figure in that—in the art world at that time. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He was internationally known, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. And a very, very fine teacher.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Was he? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I met him accidentally in Rome when I was there in '63. And then accidentally again in Athens.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN: Well, for goodness' sake. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He had a one-man show in Rome. Formerly, he was thrown out with his work before World War II. And then Rome invited him and paid all of the expenses.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I didn't know that.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  He had a wonderful, wonderful one-man show in the palace there. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  My mother had about three days with him once, and she always spoke of him very highly, even with a brushing acquaintance. [Inaudible.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. That is true, yes. He had also painting lessons—gave painting lessons. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, I see, I didn't realize that. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He was an all-around artist. He invented also the Archipentura, a machine which had canvas painted on and square arts—many square arts, and they were turning. 

[00:25:05] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  What was the purpose of this? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  To get patterns and get the feeling of color. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  How interesting. A little like Stanton Macdonald-Wright's Synchromy? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, they have it now in the movie, but he was the first inventor to invent that. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  For goodness' sake, I wonder if he patented it? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That I don't know but it was an expensive machine.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Was it [laughs]? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It was quite a big box [ph], yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Did he display things he'd done with this or did he— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He—like he would show us. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It's something you saw. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. You would— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [You didn't (ph)]—there was nothing permanent. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, no, no, no. The best thing would be of course to film it— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  —to take pictures of it.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I wonder if anyone ever did? Isn't that interesting? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That I don't know.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  For goodness' sake. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He died last year.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I didn't know he'd died.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. I felt sorry to hear it. Read in the magazine.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  How long had you been with him then?  

PETERPAUL OTT:  For about a half a year. Not long but I wanted to check up if I was on the track. And I was. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. You felt sure after having that experience? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And just before we go any farther, I want to catch up here. You said that you were doing work when you were with the union for Boston and Philadelphia. Were these freestanding sculptures like [thousands for gardens (ph)], that type of thing? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Not so much freestanding but on buildings itself. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Architectural work, yes? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Architectural art, yes.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  So, after you were with Archipenko, did you go to Chicago?  

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, I met a lady there. She was a student also. And she asked Archipenko if he would come to Chicago to tutor her.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And he had another commitment but he said, "Why don't you take Ott?" You see I had been in Archipenko's studio and he could not come. The students asked me if I could come and give criticism here and there. So, I was actually in some way a little bit like an assistant. I do not want to say it— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes, like a TA [inaudible] [laughs]? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But I was an assistant. But I helped the students and they liked my judgment. And this is why the lady did call to New York and asked me if I could come to Chicago.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  I was working at that time in Philadelphia. My brother called up and told me that and gave me a name and that name was not familiar, but I did not know. And they said they would come to New York and would see me. So, I went to New York too. I met them [ph] and there it was, formerly Miss—Mrs. Davis was married to a painter, quite a famous painter, but they had a divorce and she married McCormick from the International McCormick Harvesting Company [McCormick Harvesting Machine Company ‑Ed.]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, McCormick [inaudible], yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In Chicago.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I'll tell you a little aside of interest perhaps. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Do you know Mr. Schwankovsky [Frederick Schwankovsky ‑Ed.] here?  

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, of course. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Did you know that the house that he's living in was the first theater for Laguna Beach?  

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is correct. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And the way it got moved was they wrote Mr. McCormick because he was interested in theater and the arts, and he gave them the money to move that little house. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I see. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Did you know that? Isn't that very—the same family. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  This I don't know. Would it be the harvester McCormick or the other?  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  No, he said the harvester McCormick.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  The harvester. [Look at that. (ph)] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It must be the same man. [Inaudible.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  This is very fine, yes? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And Mrs. Davis wasn't married to Stuart Davis before, was she? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Not Stuart Davis, no. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I just thought—he's the only Davis artist that I happen to know. Know of, I mean. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Randal Davis. Randal? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Randal? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, R-A-N-D-A-L. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Now, you went then to be her private tutor? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Tutor, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And it was wonderful, and it was quite fruitful, because [laughs] Mrs. McCormick had so many social engagements and she had hired a studio and I had the model, and I was working my way away. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, wonderful.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  And she came quite—not so often so I was not bothered. Although, of course, I would have liked her if she would have come every day.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN: Yes. But as long as she didn't, it was like having an angel, as they say in theatre. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But she—yes. She liked it very much. We've got very, very good along. Of course, everything has to end and so I parted and stayed in Chicago because I did not want to go back to New York. That had been so much [inaudible] politics. 

[00:30:08] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And I just hate that. So, I stayed in New York and got a good friend, got acquainted with Penny Cent. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Penny? I beg your what? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Penny Cent. Like you say— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  C-E-N-T? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —a penny and a cent. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  That is a person's name? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is a person's name. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  What a delightful name. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It is. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Man or a woman? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And he said—that was a man. And he said when he will have money, he will call himself Dollar Buck. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] Isn't that funny? Well, was he an artist? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He was a very good artist, in fact. And Non-objective artist but very good and he had no money, so we helped him out. He lived with us in the studio, and we fed him and so on. But he was a very fine fellow. And later, he moved away. And then he visited us again and said, "In a few days, you will hear what happened to me." And I did. He won the Guggenheim Fellowship in Non-objective arts.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  How wonderful! 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It is possible that he was the first one to win that on Non-objective. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Isn't that— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And he won it first two years to begin with. And they granted him another year after the two years. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Where did he go to study? Or did he use it as a traveling—?  

PETERPAUL OTT:  He did not go abroad. He stayed here.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  And later after this, he was also hired as an assistant to the Guggenheim Foundation.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, that's a very interesting story. And you said we. By this time you were married I suppose? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, that is correct. I married in Chicago. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Was your wife an artist too? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Not in this case but she is an extremely good cook.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, that's an artist too [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And this is an artist too [laughs]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  You're a very lucky man.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, I am.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  She's also a very nice person on the telephone— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —I enjoyed our various conversations.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Let's see. What were you doing? Still getting private commissions then? Because we have you from Mrs. McCormick's time now until the Project. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. I was teaching then. We opened a—with Penny Cent, we opened a school, a private school in Evanston. The manager of the Marshall Field store was interested in art, and he helped us. He paid the studio and all the rent whenever it's necessary. And they had announcements in the papers, and we had students. Penny Cent teaching in painting and I had sculpture students.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  After this, I folded up. We had the Depression.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  Depression hit that manager quite hard too. And so, I went to the Evanston Fine Arts—School of Fine Arts. And when Mr.— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  My goodness, whenever there's a depression, you go right back to school [laughs]. That's a wonderful use of your time. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Laughs.] Yes, that is true.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Great. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And Mr. Shafer [ph] was the director of the school. When I spoke to him asking for a position as a sculptor, he was not pleased and he gave me quite a long spiel with words. But then I said, "Do you have just one minute time?" "Well, I don't have much time I have to go back to school." So, I opened my folder with photographs. And there he looked and couldn't believe it that the work he saw was my work. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  So, he said, "I'll visit you in your studio." He came and he wanted to stay only a few minutes, but he stayed one and a half hour.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And he gave me a one-man show in his school. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Why how wonderful. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And then we started with students, and I had a very fine success. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, isn't that great? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  At that time when so many were without any means of support.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. Well, you were certainly a natural to take over this sculptor project. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It seems so, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah.  

[00:34:55] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Through that exhibition at Shafer's [ph] gallery, I met an architect. He saw my work and liked it very much, asked me if I would consider architecture work. So, I told him, "I am an architecture sculptor." 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  "The pieces you see here is only done because I had time. I did it for myself so I competed." He showed me drawings. He had a post office to build. And when I heard that the lowest bidder will get it, I wanted to decline. I did not know the practice that this was here in America. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Because in Europe, it is usually so the middle-priced fellow gets it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, is that right? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  That's interesting. I didn't know.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  [While he gets (ph)] straight commission without—and it is paid whatever he asked. So, the Depression was still on, we have no income, so I made it low and low, and I went over very careful. And it was given to me as the lowest bidder. And I had to make 30 different models for the post office in Oak Park, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  That kept me busy. I wanted of course to hire some helps but on that building they had so many strikes that I was never pressed with time, so I did all the work myself.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, my goodness. Now, I believe Frank Lloyd Wright came from Oak Park at one time. He—it wasn't his building, was it? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, not on his building. No, it was the post office in Oak Park.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And do you remember the architect's name? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Webber. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Was it W-E-B-B-E-R? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, that was certainly a wonderful commission to get at that time, wasn't it? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, that was very good. I opened on my—on account of this, I had to have a studio and having still much time on my hand, those students which I had in the fine arts—Evanston Fine Arts Institute, they asked me if I would keep on teaching, so I took the school over to my studio. And I had students then until I came to California.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  I had also my own gallery once. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, you did? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  People exhibited, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  In Chicago? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In Evanston. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Evanston. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And painters and sculptors. I did sell paintings, but I never could sell anything of my own because I could not brag. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs] Oh, you needed a manager? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Inaudible.] Yes, absolutely [laughs]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  To do all that. Isn't that funny? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It's still true today [laughs]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, it's my theory that all artists need them. I don't think they should be—have to be asked to hawk their wares. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, the strange—that is correct. The strange thing is that in Europe if you exhibit and you make good and you— 

[END OF TRACK AAA_ott65_8889_m.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  So [inaudible] tape. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Inaudible]—oh, I see. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. This is Betty Lochrie Hoag, on June 24, 1965, interviewing Peterpaul Ott. Mr. Ott, you were just beginning to tell me the difference about taking bids in Europe and the fact that when things were—no not paying bids. When things were exhibited in Europe. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. I wanted to explain that I did not know the procedure that they have here in America. If one artist exhibit and he does extremely good work, he is noticed, and the government usually takes care of it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Formally, of course, it was the king and the kaiser, or whatnot. And now, the government. If he—if an artist gets prizes, the government gives him commissions and employs him at the academies. We do not have any agent. And just a few years ago, I heard that here in America if you want to go ahead, you have to have an agent. And he does the spade [ph] work. You do the artistic work. That would be considered unethical. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  In Europe. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In Europe. I do not know how it is today, because I came here to America in '24. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It may have changed also. I do not know. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, I think all countries do something to help their artists. All countries in Europe, certainly. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  We're the only country that doesn't, except for this one little period of the Federal Art Project. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I was wondering all those years when we had the Depression. The government helped nearly every profession except the artists. And I pounds [ph] down my fist and said, "If the government is not taking care of the artists, then they should close all the art schools." Because America is creating artists without— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Taking care of them afterward. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —taking care. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  They can—they do not know where [they have to give up (ph)]. It would be done only for leisure, but an artist has to eat too. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is the thing. I have spoken with people, and they're under the impression that an artist has money and does it for the love of it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] Yes. It's just like any other work when he eats too. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. He has to eat too. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, it seemed during the Kennedy administration perhaps something else would be done. It's a shame that they had only one day of— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Inaudible.] Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —culture. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Of course, the Federal Art Project was created under Roosevelt. I think Mrs. Roosevelt had been instigating it. And I was sure after the war that our next president— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Whispers] What is his name? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Truman. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Truman. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes, would go on— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Since he plays the piano and was for art, I really meant—I thought that he would take over and continue. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  If at all, nothing happened. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I've just finished a term paper for school at USC on Truman and the arts. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I'll send you a copy or bring it to show you next time I come. I turned out some quite interesting things about his— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —impression of art. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  He wasn't the temperament. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  No. I'm afraid not. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I mean, I do not know Mr. Truman, of course. And— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. He did not have a vision for it. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is unfortunate. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Let's not forget that if we speak of the Egyptian, Greek, and Romans, and Renaissance, and whatnot, we see right away figures, paintings, architecture, and so on. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Right. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  We do not see automobile or machinery— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —which is important now. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But the artist is making it. The artists are leaders. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. They certainly are. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  If it wasn't for the artists, we would not have such a very fine cut [ph] automobile, airplane, machinery. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  All the things we are using in every day's life is three-dimensional. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And it has been designed by someone. Not just by a painter, but by someone who understands this third dimension. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. And many times, those artists doing that to earn—designing those things to earn money, so they have time to do the type of academic art which they— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —enjoy, painting or sculpture. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, understood. Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  But there should be some better combination. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And have you also noticed how many books are on the market about art? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But while the artists are living—is living. He has to die first. 

[00:05:00] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And then they put out books. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, that's why— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And then they put in monuments. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  That's why I think that this Ford Foundation grant that the Archives has to study this period is important, because we're getting a chance to get out and let the artists talk— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is very good. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —and say the things they want to. And it's the only time it's ever been done. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yeah. I— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And I think we're just becoming conscious of the fact that the Federal Art period was the first time that— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —the public was conscious— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —of what they had in subject matter, and in artists both. Don't you? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, very correct, because when I give a lecture, I talk about art. And then I tell them also that when we had the Depression, and people had no work, they went to libraries, and they went to galleries, and found that there was something else in life than hunting that dollar. Of course, we have to have money. That is a means of living now. But there is something else in life, and this is the higher things. This is also music, and dance, theater, and so on. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Did you feel that the public in Chicago and Evanston—now, you were in Chicago during the Project? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —were behind this thing and pleased? Were there exhibits of the work given and— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. We had very many. But if you say behind, I would like to mention something that you may have to strike it out here. I don't know. When I wanted to come to America, my friends said, "Peter, what do you want over there in America? They are behind in art 20 years." 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  So, I said, "All right. If that is the case, then we will be pioneers." 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Good for you [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  "I will be a pioneer." So, I came to New York and looked around in the galleries and found that America was not 20 years behind art, but 50. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Really? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But now, they have picked up. At that time, [hits table] we did not have any opera singer, American-born. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  That's right. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Now, we have them. We— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And are proud of them. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Yes, of course! 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes, very. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And we had also—sure, we had some painters and sculptors and so on, but take a look. They had been usually from European parents. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And we didn't have so good ones. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Now, we have. If you want to study art, you do not have to go to Europe anymore. You can study right here— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —in America. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And at that time, the artists had to get acclaim in Europe before it was acknowledged here, I think, too. This often happened, like Mr. Wright—Stanton Macdonald-Wright from our community in Los Angeles, for instance, who went to Europe and founded this Synchromism. And— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —he is better known in Europe today than he is here. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. [Inaudible]? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And still. Stanton Macdonald-Wright. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Stanton? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  He and— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Because you mentioned the name Wright, I'm thinking that on Frank Lloyd Wright too also. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It's so peculiar. He was world famous and was not recognized in America. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I know that. Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And then finally, the Architectural League—or how they call themselves—gave him the gold medal. He gave the only answer he could. "It's about time." 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. Good [laughs]. Well, it was, too. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Something's strange. I think it was part of our country growing up that we didn't have confidence that we were growing up. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And we still felt like children about Europe. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That—yes. And it is, like Christ said, the prophet is not recognized in his own country. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Without honor in his own country. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And honor. Whatever it is. It happened with even—with Rodin. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, did it? In France? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. He was recognized over the whole globe, but he died of starvation. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I didn't remember that. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Like nobody knows that. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  For heaven's sake [laughs]. I'm going to jump to the period from your being in Evanston— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —and the Project and go ahead and see how you got to California, and then we'll come back. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  After the end of the Project, World War II came along, and that project dissolved. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Where did you go then? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. The thing is this. I visit here, Laguna Beach, while I was still on the Project. Took about a month off, I guess. And I liked it here very much. Then I developed—oh, but at that time, I was also with the Northwestern University—connected. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  For three years. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  You mean, you were teaching there? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Teaching, yes, at Northwestern. And at the Chicago campus also. 

[00:10:03] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I'm sorry, Chicago what? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Chicago campus of the Northwestern University. They had two campuses. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Camper? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Campus. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, campus. I'm sorry. Yeah, I didn't— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yeah, that's my English [laughs]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  No, that's fine. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I'm still learning it. Yes. [Whispers] [Inaudible.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  No. I just wanted to be sure I had it right. Thank you. And you just came out here on a visit? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  On a visit. I liked it very much. And we—I had to go back, because I was teaching at Northwestern. And then I developed bursitis. And I hate it so bad that I had to have my arm in the sling—my right arm in the sling— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, no. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —and I couldn't move it at all. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  For a sculptor, that would be hard. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That—it is bad for anybody. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes, correct. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Not only for sculptor. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  But worse for sculptor. 

[They laugh.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And the doctor gave me nine shots—[X-ray shots (ph)]. That was the most. And I asked him, "Doctor, would a change of climate help?" And he said, "Yes. Where do you want to go?" I said, "To California." 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And he raised his hand up and said, "Why, you will have the sun firsthand! Of course." 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And I came here, lied down 10 days in the sun, and bursitis was gone. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Isn't that wonderful? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And I never got it back. Why should I go back East? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, I certainly agree with you. And you have— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, it was wonderful. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —such a lovely spot here. But I don't see— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —your sun today. 

[They laugh.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Inaudible.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, no. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, we have a bad—a late summer this time. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. A very lovely place. And incidentally, I'm interested that the place your children end up is Laguna Canyon, where there are so many natural sculptures. I think the rock— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —formations are fascinating [inaudible]— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It is very good and the hills and so on. Yes, that is true. Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Very beautiful. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  The nicest spots up [ph] the California coast. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I came to California exactly a year before Pearl Harbor, December 7th, 1940. And came to Laguna Beach a few months later—three months later [inaudible]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And you— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I could not get ahold of any college or university. The war was going in Europe. And the schools, the institutions, they knew that we may have to go in and they needed teachers for other things than art. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And this is what happened in '41. We had to go. And so, I went in a shipyard and was a carpenter at a shipyard. I had to make a living. My mother-in-law had several hamburger stands on the boardwalk. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, wow. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And we liked that, and so I took over one. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  For goodness' sake. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  With the help of the missus, of course, we swung it and— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  With her good cooking. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And lived out the war that way. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And that—yes. And that enabled us also then to put money aside and buy the house and build a studio. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, isn't that wonderful. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Where we are just sitting now. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, you're not just sitting. You're teaching every day for one thing, I know that. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Laughs.] Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And probably exhibiting your things too, aren't you? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, I did. I'm not doing it anymore, because I have so little time to create. I have so many schools and institutions to teach. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And believe me, the students, they take the pep out of you in a way. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, I would think it'd be a very big way [laughs]. Are you teaching someplace besides here in your studio? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, [inaudible]— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I teach at the Laguna Beach High School, adult education. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And San Clemente. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Adult education, too? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  This is all under adult education, yes. The strange thing is that I do not have that teacher's certificate, so I do not want to teach anything else but sculptor. 

[00:15:10] 

But I'm not allowed to teach even to kindergarten in a tax-supported institution. But I can teach anywhere else in any university, except in California. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Isn't that a strange law? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  This is peculiar. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Why? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Because as I say, I do not want to teach American history— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  No [laughs]? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —or anything else. Just sculpture. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And they wouldn't—I'm not allowed. But I have my life diploma for adult education teaching. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Where did you get that? When did you get that, I mean? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I was in Europe—in '63, I got it finally. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  In 1963? Well, that's a wonderful thing to have. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Being on that point, it may sound that I'm bragging, but in '62, the California Teachers Association gave me the [inaudible] CALCO Award. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I didn't get that name. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  CALCO award. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  CALCO? C-A-L-C-O? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Okay. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  As one of the most outstanding teacher. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Why how marvelous, isn't that now? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  At that time, I did not know what it meant. But now I know, because nine teacher got it and one instructor. I'm the one instructor. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Why, Mr. Ott, isn't that great? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And we've got chosen from over 20,400 teachers. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Why, for goodness' sake. And you were only an instructor? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, that is a marvelous award. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [I value this very highly (ph)], because if I exhibit and I win a prize, then I compete against, let's say, 40 sculptors, or 80 artists in all, sculptors and painters. But to—and I was not competing. It was awarded to me. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, that's— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I even declined when they said that I was chosen for it. I didn't want to take it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Why? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It seemed to me unfair, because we—I was under the impression we have much nicer and better teachers than I am. I mean it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I doubt it very much. 

[They laugh.] 

It sounds to me like you really earned it. You certainly had much acclaim on your Project. [Inaudible] while you were out of the room, I was glancing at some of your— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —things you'd gotten out for us to let us microfilm. And I'm just really thrilled with some of the things that you did at the time. One of them I want to be sure to get on the tape, it's that very powerful truncated trunk, sculpture of the man. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Oh, yes, the athlete [ph]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And in the corner it says, Harry Hopkins. And would you—you told me, but will you tell the tape again— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Oh— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —why this happens to be written on the photograph? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  A school had a very fine piece of walnut, and they would like to have something carved. I had assigned several artists to that piece. And they made [ph] designs, and we were not satisfied, and I was not satisfied at all, because they make not use of the material. So, after having, oh, about eight different artists making sketches, I finally sat down and made a sketch myself using the whole block, and yet having a very—very much motion in it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Of course, I would like to say that I studied Michelangelo, as much as I could. And he was actually my master. And this is what you see on this picture. [Inaudible.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Marvelous movement in it. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I used the whole block. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  What was the actual size? Do you remember now? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. About 30 inches— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Three? [Inaudible.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Thirty inches high. And it is a torso of an athlete. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It could be a shotput or a— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Javelin or— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —javelin thrower or jumping over the hurdle. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It is a torso. When the photograph was sent to Washington, Mr. Hopkins liked it very much—Harry Hopkins of the WPA— 

[00:20:03] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —administrator. And he asked three times for it, until finally outright [ph] to send it to him. And it is possible that it was the only piece in his office when he selected my piece. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, that is a great tribute, because he certainly saw all of the work from all over the country at the time too. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, that is true. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  He was active in this time. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And I wonder if it's still in Washington someplace. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Well, where it is now, I don't know. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  You don't know? That's happened to so many things. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It's a very fine oak [ph] piece carving. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  You said one of the schools had the piece of walnut you carved it from. Was this something given to them for a Project work? Or how did they happen to have it? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Well, they gave it to us, because we made something for them. We made that big panel. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  The panels at either side of there— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. On the— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Is that the Lane Technical High School? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  The Lane Technical High School, yeah. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Biggest high school in the world. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, really? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, it is. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, my goodness. So, you made your panels big proportionately, didn't you? 

[They laugh.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  They're almost life-sized figures. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. That is true. Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And it must be a huge—they must be huge panels. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Well, the panel—the first panel was the Evolution of the Book. And it is 6-feet wide and 15-feet high. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, my goodness. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And while we were carving on it, the director liked it very much. And we looked for a place, and we found the library would be the best spot. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He told me that, "You know, Mr. Ott, the student liked it very much too when they saw the scale model and the photographs. Now, we have on the other side of the library the same spot." I did not know what he wanted, and he hinted, and then I got it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  What was it? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He meant, "You better go ahead and make another panel on the other side." 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] And what was the name of that other one? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And this is what I did. I used on a bigger scale, and I called it Men Controlling the Elements. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. That's the one with the five elements [ph]— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. That is showing the four antique element. I mean, antique—when I said antique, I mean the classical elements, which would be air, land, water, and fire. And low [ph] panel showing the men in the middle with the building and his achievements right and left. That has a six movement over the whole panel. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  A very interesting movement, yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It is very well-designed, I think. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. Did you have people help assist you with these? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And I had the woodcarvers, yes. I had the woodcarvers do—carve away. And then I went over it myself at the—when it was nearly completed in order to have one handwriting over the whole panel. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Because each one is—has his own handwriting and it would be a little bit [chopped off (ph)]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But by having one at the end and going over it, that makes it one unit. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It gives it the unity. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And what finish do you use on the walnut? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Oh, the—just only lacquer— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Just black [ph]— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Some of the wood filler and—but not high shine. It's a dull-looking lacquer. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Good. Because mahogany is so beautiful on itself. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. It is very fine by itself, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And I noticed the headline on one of those newspaper articles thing that the idea of having the directional signs in the zoo in Chicago was your idea, is that correct? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And would you tell me how that happened and what went on? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Well, we had to make some cages for the snake—for the snakes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Cages for them? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, to have the surrounding. And it was painted. And, of course, a relief, jungle, and so on. And we made them. And the director came and looked it over, and he liked it very much. And while we were discussing it, we were thinking of, “Couldn't we do something else for the zoo?” And he said, "Yes, we could have some directional signs." And he was thinking, of course, putting the name down to the lions' cage— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  With an arrow [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —with an arrow. So, what we did is I sat down and started to sketch [whistling sound] and gave then also the—we can go on. 

[00:25:10] 

And gave also some artists the assignment make some signs for the picnic place and for the, let's say, for the bear cage and for the lion cage, and so on. And so, that a picture—like the Chinese proverb, "A picture is worth a thousand words." So, if you say a lion and a point an arrow, then you know that it goes to the lions' cage. So, children can see that, and grownups too, of course— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —without reading. And this is how it developed. And we made about, I would say, 60 different— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  My goodness. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —signs of the zoo. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I'm— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  All different kinds of animals. Yes? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I'm just so happy that you've saved some of them. Mr. Freund had a picture of just one or two of them. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And it was just such fun to look at these other ones. They're perfectly charming. The little crocodile, for instance, with this tail and snout pointing. And they must be very loved. You said that you'd taken pictures about— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I took— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —three years ago or something. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. No, it was earlier, but it doesn't matter. When I went East, I took then some pictures in the zoo itself. I had some, but they had been misplaced, some big pictures. But what I have is now snapshots. And not of all of them. Some I could not take. It was too dark. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And they were in the bushes. The bushes should be cut. 

[They laugh.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Inaudible.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Inaudible.] I hope they took care of it in the meanwhile. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, I hope they have, because they must be very charming around. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. I think that— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I want to get back to the cages for the snakes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I haven't heard anything about this. Were they wooden— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Well, no. We used plaster. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —like a fence? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Plaster. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Plaster of Paris. And the painters took them very—took over too, right? And we made [inaudible] things, and so on. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Were they grillwork and screen? I guess [plaster and solid walls (ph)]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And grillwork, too. Yes. And done some, actually, wood. And it was placed, so that the snake can [inaudible]. It showed the habitat of the different animals. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. That was the mural? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And it makes it much more pleasant— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —than to have only the— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Of course. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —wire cages and nothing in the back. Just— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, by the painters, you mean the easel project or the paintings department at the [inaudible]? It was a joint thing. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Easel project, yes. The—yes, they took them over. We made the cage and—I mean, let's say not the cage, but the background of it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And the painter took over and painted. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, that's very interesting. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And this is how it should go. We should work always with everybody. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  There is one big mistake what the American architects are doing here. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Because if an architect has a building—let's call it a building to build. If he will make his first sketches, and when he has them roughed out, he will call in the painter and the sculptor. And all three are working then together— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —from the beginning. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  They should, yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  So, it is not an afterthought. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That when the building is standing, they go then and say, "Now here is the wall. Put something on." That makes it much too hard in order to become an integral part of it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Like with your Lane Technical High School, they just— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —had the space— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —and you had to fill it. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And that it was too bad that they did it [inaudible]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, that is unfortunate, but it worked alright? The other thing is this also—usually at the end, there is never enough money left anyhow. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] No. That is a—I'm sorry to laugh, but this complaint I've heard so often from everyone [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It certainly is a sad thing. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It is not—I mean, I'm not looking for millions of dollars. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  No, but just enough to cover the materials [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But I have to make a living. And what I'm making is just an existence. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes, I know. Well, under the Project, did you go out and secure any of the commissions, for instance, when the—I suppose it was the Commissioner of Public Parks wanted these things. Did you go out and sell them on the idea or did they— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —come to the Project? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, I did. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  You did? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, I did go to the schools and showed him what we did and what could be done. And we went around on the building and on the ground and made suggestions and so on. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And that was very helpful. That was also the job of the supervisors. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  That must have been kind of hard work, too. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, in a way it was. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  You have the salesman, really. 

[00:30:00] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Of course, I was selling for the government, so to speak. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And I did not sell for myself. If I would have to have to do it for myself, I probably couldn't have done it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Like you're paintings [laughs]? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  What other schools did you have a sculpture in? Do you remember— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Inaudible.]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —any of the other ones on the Project? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Oh, no. This is hard to—no, I don't remember that. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Let me take a peek over here a minute.  

[Audio break.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mr. Ott and I had a time out for a cup of coffee, and it developed that he did some very, very beautiful work on the Treasury Department sculptural awards for post offices in this country, and had some most interesting experiences. So, we're going to get off of the other section that we were talking about and go into this a bit. The first one was for the Bronx, New York post office. And it was a competitive design. The subject was given out as the four elements. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  No? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  The subject was not given out that way. They said that we should make sculptural designs and a small-scale model and send it in. It was an open competition for the whole nation, for all the sculptors in America. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  When I read it, I—it sounded very good, but I had the feeling that it will stay in New York. So, I entered only because it had that sentence—the last sentence said, "If somebody sends in a good design and we are not using it, the sculptor will be awarded a straight smaller commission." 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  For that reason, I sent it in. I heard later that Mr. Manship, who was on the jury, wanted to give me the award. But the government decided to give it rather to two sculptors. And my two groups could not be divided, because I chose the four elements. And they would have to have been taken—I mean, both groups would have to be taken— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —to that building. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mr. Ott, you told me that the post office itself was very classical in design. And the design that you created for your sculptural group is very classical. And would you describe it, since I don't see any photographs of it that we can film? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. I chose the four classical elements. Again, standing up two together, land and water, and fire and—no, fire and water and air. 

[They laugh.] 

I'm sorry. And I chose a woman and a man standing as one group using also the fish for the water and the eagle for the air, which, of course, is also our American eagle. I used it for both. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah, nice symbol. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, it came out good. And [inaudible] also, facing the oceans on both sides. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And so, I used a dolphin. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, that's why the figures are carrying the side too from the center. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  That also is symbolic. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is correct. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I have just seen this. Mr. Ott has it, and it's a perfectly beautiful piece [inaudible]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. I think it still should be there, but the government chose otherwise. Mr. Manship had wanted to award me that—the first prize on it. That is to say the commissions. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But—and as I said before, the government wanted to have it split, and so they gave it to two New Yorkers, as I expected. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Do you remember their names? You told them to me, I believe. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Henry Kreis was one, a very good sculptor. He did wonderful work for the American—for the government too. He got commissions. And the other was Schell [ph]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Sheela? S-H-E-E-L-A? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  S-C-H— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  S-C-H— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [—E-L-L (ph)]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  But as a result of it, you did get another— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —post office. [Inaudible.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I have been awarded the first prize, and they gave me a straight commission, a smaller one, but—and I made a Mercury for the Chicago post office in aluminum. The piece itself is an over-life-sized figure. Ten feet long. 

[00:35:00] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It is. I've just seen a photograph of it too. And it's a very beautiful thing with the Mercury flying holding a very American letter in his hand. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is right. [inaudible]. 

[They laugh.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And it's in— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In aluminum. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Aluminum. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Cast in aluminum. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It was done in Chicago. Cast in Chicago. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  This indicates a little of your training with Archipenko, doesn't it? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In a way, yes, of course. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It has a little of that feeling? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Very, very nice. And that is in place in the post office in Chicago? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And then you— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In the Kedzie Street post office. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, Kedzie? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Kedzie, yes. That was a new post office. Unfortunately, here in America, when I had been awarded that commission, I went to the architect and he showed the letter to his associate, and I heard him saying, "Here the government sends me a sculptor to ruin my building." 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, what a shame. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And this happens so often. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, I think it happened more at that time with architecture than it is now. I think there's a definite trend away from it [inaudible] the architects are involved in the— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Well, I do hope—I do hope it is so. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Because this is awful. This is not the first time that it happened to me. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  No? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  The same words had been used by another architect. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. Well, my husband is an architect. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And I can tell you something that happens with them, too. I mean, he very much likes—would like to have architectural works with his buildings, which are usually residential. So, there isn't as much excuse for having them somehow. But they also are under the pressure of working within a budget. And they regret having to save anything out of their budget for architectural sculpture [or painting (ph)]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, it is peculiar that they have a—they put aside a certain amount of money for accidental expenses— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —which are unforeseen expenses. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But they never put aside enough for sculptural or artistic work. And the unforeseen money has to—always has to be spent. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I know. The owner suddenly decides they have to have an intercom— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —or an electric can opener or something [laughs], and then there's no money. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is all—and many other things too. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Inaudible] and whatnot. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] Yeah. Well, there must— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is unfortunate. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Anyway, I think the trend is more to doing this than it was at the time in the international school of architecture wanted such great severity in lines, and like this architect in Chicago objecting— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. But here is the thing. You see, when Europe—when the war was over, in the First World War, they did not have very much money. They had to build houses. So, it had to be very simple and boxlike. But not long after, they started to decorate those box houses. Again, sure, we cannot swim against the stream. And anything what is—has to develop, we have to go with it. But here, America forgot they took over that severity of the buildings— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —and kept it up until now. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Right. They stayed with the Mondrian approach [inaudible]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  They stayed—that is right. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And therefore, I may agree with Frank Lloyd Wright 98 percent. The two percent I disagree is he never used a sculptor. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. I remember that. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is most unfortunate. And, of course, being the most important architect, the other architects followed in his footsteps. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. And that always happen. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And that is—because if that—if we go on and keep that, then, again, I would say, erase the art schools and have only architects. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. Have you been down Wilshire Boulevard in Los Angeles lately? You know, the Miracle Mile section? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I have heard of it— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  You would be quite amazed. It's not like the same place even five years ago. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  The architects—the sculptures— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —are really having their chance. There are beautiful things, with our new museum and the Cal Federal Building with the [inaudible]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. This is wonderful. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It is. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  This is fine. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And the place is vital and alive, and people are very excited about it. Well, we should get back to this. After the Kedzie Chicago post office, you competed for one in Evanston—your own town—Illinois, and made designs which, again, are just beautiful. 

[00:40:03] 

I've seen the pictures of them here. And they were of a [inaudible] Indians. Am I saying it right? 

[They laugh.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Potawatomi— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Inaudible.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —Indian because that had been the Indians which roamed that section there. And the other panel was the civic Evanston, a woman's figure. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And using in the background as a relief, the figures itself, they are quite in the round, just putting it against the background but actually full round. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And in the—and as a relief in the background, the important landmarks of Evanston and the Indian panel, the wildlife of that section. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I think that the one behind the girl was so interesting. Would you mind telling me again? Or would you rather not go into it the background about the music and the traffic lights and all? I wish you would describe it for the tape. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. [Inaudible]— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Fascinating concept. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  The government told us that we should, if possible, try to get a local interest in those panels, and I tried to do that. Evanston is a very fine part of the city, so I used those trees they had. We had the wonderful trees on all of our streets. Then there is a very—since it is for the post office, I used also the very first house of our post office in Evanston and showed it. Evanston is located on the lake, and so I showed also a sail ship—sailing ship in the background. And we have become one of the nation's best-known composer [ph] city. So, I used the harp in the background, as well as the safest city. I used to hear traffic light. Our police commissioner had been sent all over Europe and to Japan— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  For heaven's sake. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —to tell them the traffic regulations and so on. And of course, using the old coach, post coach. How would you say that? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Stagecoach. Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Stagecoach, yes. And we have a landmark of our lighthouse, which is very picturesque. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And the immediate foreground is this the river or— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No. I— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —the products, the agriculture? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is agriculture? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, that is correct. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I'm looking upside down. I can't see what it is. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. And, of course, Illinois had been at that time, I think, the second largest state for corn. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  So, I let her hold a corn stalk, which makes it very sculptural tool. It is very effectful with the lights and shades and so on. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah, very beautiful. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And the left panel is the Potawatomi Indian with his tomahawk and his spear. In order to balance— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —the corn stalk, I gave him a spear in hand. And using the background, again, the woods and the different animals, which have been— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Upon [ph] which you probably did a lot of research. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I did research— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —very much and had to eliminate, of course, in order to show only the most important and decorative pieces. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Of course, I would have the bear and a lion and the bald eagle. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mr. Ott did a very interesting presentation. He worked out two different groupings of these pair of figures. The first one, showing the background he's just described. And the second one, showing it was nothing at all on the background. Now, I'm not sure the end of the story. Did they use this? And which one did they use on the post office? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Was it awarded? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  They did not use it, but I got the first prize in so far that they awarded me another commission, a smaller one, and I made two wood carving panels for a post office in Plano, Illinois. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Plano, Illinois. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Plano, Illinois. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, now, and is this Evanston one—one that was given to a New York sculptor? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Unfortunately, again, [laughs] it was given to New Yorkers, as if we had no other sculptors in this nation. 

[00:45:00] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh no [laughs]. Oh, what a shame. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  The competition had been for half of the nation. I said, at that time they can give it to the whole nation and leave New York out. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I would have gotten it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, it's very strange to me that something so beautiful wouldn't have gone into your own hometown, but they probably had— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —some politics or involvement that we didn't—don't understand. And then the one for Plano, Illinois, you also have picture—or showed me your original drawings for two concepts that you did. And it's the typical government post office area to be decorated of the post office—the postmaster's door and the bulletin boards on either side. And the two designs that you did were for first having a man and woman at either side of the door, and the second one having the same man and woman back-to-back over the postmaster's door, which was your choice of the two and actually would have been more architectonic, I believe. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. It would have been better if it would have been combined over the postmaster's door. This way, the two panels, which are either left from the door or above the—how do you call it? This— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Bulletin board. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Bulletin board. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And of course, so much writing is going on, and printing, and big lettering, so that nobody or hardly anybody will notice the wood carving, but they will see the bulletin board. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, it detracts. But I imagine— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It detracts. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —that when you come in the—or into this room from a distance, you'd certainly must be very conscious of these [inaudible]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And you will see a doorway [ph], yes. I think so. It is carved in wood—oak wood. It's about four inches deep, and silhouetted. And it is—those are over-life-size figures using—I chose the title Harvest. On the left side, a woman holding a basket harvesting the corn. And on the right, a farmer—I think you call that husking. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Husking, yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Taking it off the stalk. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Right. Mr. Ott, in the cases of both of these government sculptures, you submitted two alternative designs. Was this requested, or was this just your approach? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No. That was my idea, because I design and sketch and sketch very much. As a sculptor, I do very much drawing. In fact, I usually say—of course, the painters they will stone me when I said that a sculptor draws better than a painter. They will not believe it, but they would have to see it. [Inaudible]— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, of course, you've had this unique experience of having a marvelous training in drawing before you went into sculpture, so you knew what you were talking about. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is so true, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And it doesn't happen today very much, does it [laughs]? [Inaudible]— 

[Cross talk.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Inaudible.] That is correct. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Do you teach your own students to approach it that way? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Oh, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Do you— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I emphasize that in the very, very beginning. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Insist [inaudible]— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I tell them—but I cannot insist so very much. I might not get any students. 

[They laugh.] 

But I tell them again and again that they should draw and draw and draw. Because if you draw, and you draw a figure, let's say, from each angle, you will have—as soon as you turn it a half inch or even less, you will have always a different outline of the silhouette. And if you put all those silhouettes together, you have a three-dimensional object. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  That's very interesting. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And the painter has two dimensions, the width and the height. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And Leonardo da Vinci figured out a sculptor has eight times more work to do than a painter. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Eight times? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Eight times, because we have to create the third dimension. The painter makes the illusion—and if we want to use a hard word—fakes it in the third dimension. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Isn't that interesting? Well, that's a quite a philosophy. I'd never heard that. 

[They laugh.] 

He had most things figured out, didn't he? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Oh, he is the genius. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Okay. More than Michelangelo? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  You would not put those two next to each other and ask who was greater. In these cases, they are both great. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Inaudible], good. Mr. Ott, did you do any other Treasury Department work? 

[00:50:00] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No. I did make some sketches, yes, for the Washington post office. That was a competition. I made drawings. I will show it to you later. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Good. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And—but then the war broke out, and I did not hear again. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  They sent me my drawings back, but I have not heard of it, if it went on or not. Of course, after the war, the—I have not heard that the Project is still existing. [Inaudible.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  No. The war seemed to have been the complete end of it. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, eliminated. Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  In fact, all the artists were siphoned off into industry for war. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, let's—I'm so glad you mentioned that, because that's very interesting. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  But it would be so good if the government would do something and—a waking it up again— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —something similar like the Federal Art Project. It was so stimulating and so good for this nation, because we should try to have that too. I will give you a little bit to read. I wrote an article— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, good. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —and you will find that philosophy which I tried approach. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, may we have it for microfilming, too? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  That would be interesting, yes. I'm trying to remember if there was anything else on the Project that we haven't talked about that you had—that you were doing or having the people do on it. Do you remember anything we've missed? 

[They laugh.] 

Probably— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  We probably could talk on for hours and days and weeks, but we have to try to get only the most important thing out. And you probably have to cut several things out of that speech here anyhow. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, I doubt that very much. I know you have students waiting to come in pretty soon, and I've taken too much of your time already. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  This is all right. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  But I hope if there's—I wish you would add anything that you feel should go into the tape about the Project. Turn it off? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  All right.  

[Audio break.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  We've just had a time out again. And Mr. Ott has shown me something perfectly fascinating, which he's going to let us microfilm. One of the people working for him on the sculpture project was Felix Schultz [ph]. Is that the— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Felix Schlag. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Schlag. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Would you please spell his name? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I can't read what he's written. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  S-C-H-L-A-G. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  L-A-G. And the Felix is F-E-L-I-X? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Felix, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And he designed the beautiful Jeffersonian nickel, which is still in circulation. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I wished I had a whole lot of that. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, I do too— 

[They laugh.] 

This is—it's such a beautiful thing. It's a chart, and one of the nickels is in the center of it in a slotted area. And it says on it, "First prize winner among 390 competing artists in the national competition for a new five-cent coin, April 20, 1938," with Mr. Schlag's name: sculptor. And then it's a proof Jefferson nickel. And down below, it tells that he won this design. But the interesting thing is that up in the corner is his design for either side of the nickel which—and his design is twice as beautiful as what was done when he won the prize, and it's supposed to be the design. You want to tell me why in the world do you think they changed? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  This is hard to say— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —but he made a wonderful design, and [we talked it over (ph)]. I was with him when he was making it and to be criticized and so on, and he send it in. He had to do it under a very stress—his wife was deadly sick. And she died then. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, poor fellow. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He won the first prize on that among 390 artists sending in. The nickel had been given—the award had been given to him as the best design, yet when they accepted it and they told him about, they said also that they would like to have some slight changes. The changes had been somewhat unfortunate, because he put down a wonderful lettering. He had to change it to the Treasury lettering—what had been done before. He had to change the color of Jefferson and the hair somewhat. 

[00:55:02] 

I don't know why. It was much better. And in the—on the reverse side, he had the building of Jefferson's, who was also an architect. Designed that— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Montecito? Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Mount Vernon [sic], I guess. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Mount Vernon. He had it over the corner, and it fitted much—wonderful in that round formation. Yet he had to change it to the front look and admit [ph] a horizontal design— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —which ruins the— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Doesn't fit into the circle at all— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Doesn't fit in the circle at all. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, and in his Jeffersonian portrait, he has the man's head up slightly, and it shows the contours and the beautiful [firmness of line around the mouth of Jefferson (ph)]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It's much more—a much stronger character he has done. And when he puts his head down, that doesn't come out anymore. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, it is true. He did—the first design was actually better than the nickel we are having now. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Of course, it is still better than some other coins we have. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. Well, I think everyone considers it one of our favorite coins. It's very beautiful. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It's really strange that someplace in the minting of it someone who was not an artist had ideas about changing it that really spoiled it for what they gave him the— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —competition award for. That's very interesting. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And Felix Schlag did also some figure work— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —[metal clanging] for the Federal Art Project that had been his design. He modeled those figures, and a wood carver carved it after he's passed on. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. What wood are they? Do you remember? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Those—yes. This is—that one is mahogany, the runner [ph]. And the [inaudible] one is a woman's figure is walnut. It was done for two different schools. I forget which school. [Inaudible.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And how did the schools use them? They're just freestanding figures. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Just freestanding figure on display in the library. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Just for art's sakes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And Mr. Schlag is also a very good athlete. That's why he chose also the athlete figure. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He made then another panel showing about six or seven different athletic activities, a grill [ph] work with figures, men and women. Very, very fine designed. Extremely well. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  What has happened to him? Do you know where he is now? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He could not make a living as a sculptor, so he became a photographer. But a good photographer, having knowledge of art and sculpture and light and shade. I have seen his pictures. They are nice pictures. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Good. Does he do them for magazines or just freelance photography? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No. Freelance. He may have sent into magazines too, but I—he had to make a living, and so— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. 

[They laugh.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Like everybody else. It is unfortunate. We lost a good sculptor doing that. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, well, it certainly seems like it. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He studied in Munich with Wackerle and [inaudible]— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  With who? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Wackerle. It is hard name to spell, I know. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It would be W-A-C-K-E-R-L-E. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Wackerle, mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And with Hahn. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  What Hahn is that? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  In Munich. He was the old master of sculpture. He was the sculptor in Munich. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, isn't that interesting? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  H-A-H-N.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  H-N. Mm-hmm [affirmative] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, [inaudible]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, I'm so glad you [inaudible]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He—Hahn—[inaudible]. Yes, he made also that—Professor Hahn made also that figure, which is in standing in Chicago. A huge bronze figure showing a youth holding a—on his knee an eagle. And it is a Goethe Monument of the park. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Was it done for the fair in Chicago or something like that? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, later. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Later than that? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yeah. That is—I mean, not for the World's Fair. It was done before '24, even before— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I thought maybe for the centennial. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Done way back that earlier? 

[01:00:00] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Not so far— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  No? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Not so far back. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I didn't know how old the man was, you know [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes [laughs]. Because then Mr. Schlag would be a very old man. 

[They laugh.] 

Not so old. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, I guess he would, come to think of it. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, that's interesting. Mr. Ott, I think I'll go down and get us some more tape, and we'll have a little rest, and go on. All right? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  You use so much tape already?  

[Audio break.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That's not what—[inaudible] you had asked about the Project. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. Well, there were some more things on the Project— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  —with pictures I wanted to ask you to tell us about. For instance, the little designs which were made out of sugar pine that Mr. Freund just made the patterns for. Those were put around in different schools. And besides those, you also did medallions of children for children schools of Oakwood, didn't you? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Who designed those usually? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Some other artist designed it, which could not carve in wood. They not necessarily have to be sculptors, but he was a very clever and very good painter. And he made very fine design. His name was Travis. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Travis? And then the ones of the jazz orchestra used in the music room of the school [were done by school grads ph)]— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That was the same fellow—no. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  No, that was not the same fellow. School class made an honor roll plaque. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Honor roll plaque. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  A girl and a boy, right and left. And in the middle had been the plaques for the names of the honor students. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Came out very good. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Can you remember any of the other things done on the Project that we should talk about? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That is hard. This is so long ago. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yes. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And we did many things. And meanwhile, I met so many people as students. 

[They laugh.] 

Do you know I had thousands of students now? It is— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, we have already talked about the thing that I usually conclude an interview with, with an artist, about the value they think the Project was to American art in general. Do you want to summarize yours or— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  To summarize it is not so easy. But I think it was very, very helpful, so that the American people will better understand art and will value it also. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Until then as I said before, we were hunting the dollar. But when we had the Depression, the people found out that besides looking for the dollars, there was something else in life, and that is art. And we had, of course, also the theater groups and the music groups of the Federal Art Project which belonged all together. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And ours, painting and sculpture. We made also designs, and we had the Writers' Project, which is very important too. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  They put down historic things. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Did you have any of the Index of American Design in Chicago on the Project? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, we had— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Did you have anything to do with that at all? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Not directly, but they asked me sometimes how decent this looks, because the supervisors came together and had to criticize the work of the artist. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, I didn't know that. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And—oh, yes. That is important, too. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, I would think it would be, yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Ones from all the different fields? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. We were always together, the painters and the sculptors— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I see. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —and discuss problems and designs and whatnot. I mean, as well as painting and sculpture. I mean, the sculptors had been called in for the painters too and vice versa. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, it certainly sounds almost like a renaissance guild the way it was run [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  This is actually the proper word for it [laughs]. Yes, it is. It is. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It must have been quite a wonderful experience for all of the— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It was very fine, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And then before we stop the tape, there are a couple of things I do want to tell into it that you've told me about. One is the fact that you won the National Procter & Gamble Ivory Soap contest in the year 1930 and, again, in 1931 by doing two beautiful torsos, a female and a male torso, which were unique in being like a bas relief, in that you did not carve them completely round. They were flat on the bottom and— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  On the back. 

[END OF TRACK AAA_ott65_8890_m.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  This is Betty Lochrie Hoag on June 24, 1965, interviewing Peterpaul Ott, reel number three. We were starting to talk about this Procter and Gamble Ivory Soap Award which you won. And I was saying that these torso figures were done in high relief. And he had utilized every bit possibly of the Ivory soap bar which was unique in the contest. This is right? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  That's correct, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And it was unheard of for them to give the award two years in a row? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, you tell about it.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  No [laughs]. [Inaudible.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Inaudible.] [Laughs.] I'd rather hear you say it anyway. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It had been—so far, it had been given to sculptors. They had professionals as well as amateurs. And at that year, I entered too—do I have to tell the whole story? That makes it too long. No, I mean, I entered too— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] Interesting [inaudible]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —and, yes, and I won the first prize with that female torso. They made me promise to enter again and I didn't want to, but I did make another torso, this time a male torso and they awarded me the first prize again. I'm probably the only one winning it twice in succession.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I would like to add one point about this that you wouldn't tell the tape. I'm sure you told me that when you got your cash award, you felt guilty about having gotten it when you hadn't been entering all the time like many people who had tried over and over. And you wanted them to divide the money award even though you yourself were practically completely broke at the time, and they explained to you it would come out about ten cents per person. But I think it was the nicest gesture that I ever heard of [laughs]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, I wanted to, but they make me to take the $500. They said that I earned it. But anyhow, when they gave me the second time, I heard then that they were working three hours on it, coming back to my torso again. And finally, one fellow swung it because he said, "You don't have in your brochure that a sculptor can win it twice in succession. You don't have that sentence and therefore—and you said that it is the best piece therefore, you have to give it to Ott again." And I did get it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Inaudible.] And we're going to—I hope to have some pictures of that microfilmed and also, of some of your other work, one of which was of the dancer, Harald Kreutzberg. And would you just tell briefly the little story you told me about knowing him first in Germany [ph]? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  We studied together in Europe, in Dresden, at the Academy. He studied painting and on the side dancing with Martha Graham and we became friends. It is possible that I was at that time president of the student's society, Hans Holbein, and we had every year a celebration, a big ball, much doing [ph], and he came shyly and asked me if he could help us. And I said, "What are you doing?" And he said, "I dance." I said, "Fine, that's good." So, it is possible that I gave him the first chance to dance in public. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  I think that's a wonderful story. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And when I had been manage [ph] in New York, I met him several times because he came every year during the winter and toured America. In Chicago, when I read in the paper that he was in, I called up, asked him if he had time, he would like to see me? I took my camera along and sketch paper, photographed Kreutzberg from all angles, his head and also the hands. I took measurements, went home, worked blocking the bust according to the photographs and sketches I had. And then he posed about three times, each a half an hour. But while I was working that half hour, I was sweating like a dog. 

[They laugh.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, dear. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [I was. (ph)] And I exhibited then in the Art Institute in Chicago. And they awarded that piece with the first prize, the Frank G. Logan Art Institute Medal [Logan Medal of the Arts ‑Ed.], plus $750. It was— 

[00:04:58] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  It was the first time that had been given for sculpture, wasn't it? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  To sculptor, yes. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Would you mind telling me the name of it again, Frank G. what? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Frank G. art—Frank G. Logan. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Frank G. Logan. Thank you. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Art Institute Medal.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. All right. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  It had been given for 12 years straight to paintings. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, it certainly was well given to this head. It's a very, very beautiful thing. Mr. Ott has done a great many portrait heads which are lovely. He also has worked in many other types of sculpture including making awards and doing very interesting abstract animal shapes using the least possible, how should I say, development of a material and letting it speak for itself. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Making use of the material— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Making use of, mm-hmm [affirmative] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  —complete use, of the material at hand. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  And in metalwork and probably not much more of which will be in the biography which we'll microfilm. [Coughs] Excuse me. I certainly do want to thank you for this tape. I've enjoyed talking to you. In fact, it's been a fascinating afternoon. Is there anything that you feel you want to add before we close? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I think you will have to cut a whole out of that. 

[They laugh.] 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, and I just wish that I could get more of the other things that you've told me. I enjoyed it and thank you so much, Mr. Ott. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Thank you for coming. If necessary, [inaudible] camera for sure. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Are these—yes, [inaudible] these are recent portraits that might not be on the list, is that it? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I [inaudible]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  These are additional portraits that you've done which are not on the list of your biography? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, that is possible. For instance, I may not have a major relief portrait of King Frederick Augustus of Saxony [inaudible]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  For goodness' sake. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  And also, Emperor Franz Joseph I of Austria. That was before the First World War. After the First World War, I had been invited to make a portrait of Atatürk Mustafa Kemal Pasha, the first president of the new Turkey and his two ministers, İsmet Pasha and Refet Pasha.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Coughs] Excuse me.  

PETERPAUL OTT:  I also made a portrait of Albert Einstein, but I fear that the Hitler regime took care of that and destroyed it. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, did you do it with him posing? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  [Inaudible] I had photographs at that time [inaudible]. At that time, he could not make it, but he sent me photographs. I met him down in Palm Springs here and we had lunch together. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Was a very fine fellow. He played the violin wonderfully. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Really? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, wonderful. [Inaudible.] I found also that you can talk to quite big people much easier than to talk with the corporal [ph]. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Isn't that strange? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I had General Glassford in my class as a student.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  General who? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  General Glassford. He had been with— 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Who is he? I don't recognize the name. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He had been with MacArthur as a staff. He came here to Laguna Beach, bought a house, and lived here. He had been in West Point. And he was also an instructor for painting and drawing in West Point. He was a wonderful water colorist. Came to my class and enjoyed it very much.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  We met very accidentally. At a first Christmas morning, the phone rings and jolly as I am I called into the telephone, "Merry Christmas whoever it is." There was a pause, "Who is that?" "Peterpaul Ott." "The Peterpaul Ott?" "The Peterpaul Ott." "Mr. Ott, I wanted to see you. Can I come over? [Inaudible.] I have the wrong telephone, but can I come over?" I say, "Yes, yes, come over," not knowing who it was. A big strong, elderly man appears and salutes, "I am General Pelham Glassford." 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] Well. 

[00:09:56] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I was very honored. He liked it very much, my studio, and asked if he could enroll in my class and he did. I still have a work of his here. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN: Well, isn't that interesting? 

PETERPAUL OTT:  We became very good friends. One thing I could never make, he always saluted me first.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  He did [laughs].  

PETERPAUL OTT:  Actually, I never could make it fast enough. He said he honors the art. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  [Laughs.] Pardon me, he did what?  

PETERPAUL OTT:  He honors the art.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  The art, the artist.  

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Yeah. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  He was a very fine man. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh. Well, that's very interesting. You also have these lovely portraits here of your family, of your children [inaudible]— 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes, I finally started with the family too. I made so many portraits, and I supposed to be a very—they told me, a very good portraitist. Now, I finally make my own family too. I have made Melania, our daughter, then Peter, Alexander. And now, I'm working on two others—on Stephanie and then Elizabeth will be the next, then our two daughter-in-laws. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, that's—it's going to keep you busy for some time [inaudible]. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Yes. I wanted to make also portrait of Mrs. Ott and I told her not to cut her hair until I have made a bust of her. She has very long hair. It reaches to half of the calf. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  My goodness. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Two big strands. How do you call that? 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Oh, braids. 

PETERPAUL OTT:  Braids. And so, since I did not make a portrait of Mrs. Ott, she did not cut her hair yet. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well [laughs], I think you're just holding out because you're [inaudible]— 

[They laugh.] 

PETERPAUL OTT:  I'm holding out [inaudible]. Yes, that is true. 

BETTY HOAG MCGLYNN:  Well, thank you for giving us those additions. 

[END OF TRACK AAA_ott65_8891_m.] 

[END OF INTERVIEW.]