Oral history interview with Margaret Taylor Burroughs, 1988 November 11-December 5

Transcript

Preface

The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Margaret Taylor Goss Burroughs (Margaret Taylor Burroughs) on November 11 and December 5, 1988. The interview took place in Chicago, Illinois, and was conducted by Anna M. Tyler for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. 

The original transcript was edited. In 2024 the Archives retranscribed the original audio and attempted to create a verbatim transcript. This transcript has been lightly edited for readability by the Archives of American Art. The reader should bear in mind that they are reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose. Additional information from the original transcript has been added in brackets and given an –Ed. attribution. This interview is part of the African American Artists in Chicago oral history project. 

Interview

[00:00:03.29]

ANNA TYLER:  [Today, November 11, 1988, our guest is Margaret Taylor Burroughs, Afro-American –Ed.] visual artist, poet, founder, and director emeritus of the DuSable Museum of African American History. This interview is being conducted from her home and studio, located at 3806 South Michigan Avenue, Chicago, Illinois. I am Anna Tyler, your interviewer for the Afro-American Oral History Project, sponsored by the Archives of American Art. 

[00:00:36.68]

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

Margaret, you were born in St. Rose, Louisiana. May we start at the very beginning of your life, please? 

[00:00:44.49]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yes, we may. 

[00:00:50.29]

ANNA TYLER:  Will you give us your date of birth—

[00:00:53.01]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well—

[00:00:53.30]

ANNA TYLER:  —plus the year? 

[00:00:54.43]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, I was born—my mother told me—I was led to believe for many years that I was born on the 1st of November, 1917. However, when it came time that I had to establish my birth, there was no record. And so I had to write back to this Louisiana town. I had to write to the Bureau of the Census. And the Bureau of the Census had taken a census back then some time. And since there were three girls, they had given me my oldest sister's age, that is 1915. And my oldest sister had 1917, according to the way they wrote it down. 

[00:01:43.93]

And so when I finally had to get a passport, it says 1915. And so that gave me a few more years than I deserved. However, I used to feel very bad about it until it was pointed out to me by one of the teachers at DuSable High School said, "Look, you shouldn't worry about that. You should be glad because that means you can retire two years earlier than anyone else. You can get your pension two years earlier, you see?" And then my sister had to work those two years before she got to hers. 

So it was quite all right because I since have enjoyed it. I was able to retire and get my pension. And all I said was that I was born in 1915, but I knew I was born in 1917. And an interesting side note on that is that when I was in the hospital a couple of months ago, and they were hastily taking the records and all. And somebody put down that I was born in 1907. You see, they're making me making me older and older. 

[00:02:55.58]

ANNA TYLER:  Right, that's even older. Yeah, ten years older. 

[00:02:58.65]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I noticed when I was lying up in this hospital bed at Presbyterian St. Luke's that these young nurses and orderlies kept coming in and looking in my room and looking at me and looking in my room. And then one of them finally said, "Gee, you sure look good to be 80." [Laughs.] So I said, "Well, what do you mean, 80?" "Well, it says on your record here, born in 1907." So well, I felt a little bit insulted about that. But since then, I've decided if they want to think I'm 80, it's quite all right, because I really look good to be 80. Go on. 

[00:03:33.77]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, now, your family moved to Chicago in 1920, or when you were five years old. So that means 1922. 

[00:03:42.41]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  About 1922. Yeah, because at that time, that was the period of the great migrations that you probably have heard about when many Black people were leaving the South because they had no opportunities. There were no educational opportunities for their children. And there was just no hope for them staying down there. Had I stayed down there, I would have been going to inferior schools. I probably would have married early. I probably would have had about fifteen children and never had any accomplishments or achievements. And so after the war—well, during the war, my uncles and all had gotten a chance to go over to France and to Europe and to see—

[00:04:29.15]

ANNA TYLER:  Now, this is World War I.

[00:04:30.84]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I, World War I, because that was 1917, you see? I was a war baby, I guess. And so when they came back from the war, they decided they wanted to resettle. So some members of the family decided to move to Chicago, because many Black people were moving to Chicago at that time. And so one segment of the family would move North, and then they would save money, and send money down home for other segments of the family. So they came up like that. 

[00:05:02.24]

And so I particularly remember riding on that train. That was my first train ride. And I was kind of large for my age, and my mother told me to sort of scooch down when I was walking past the conductor so I wouldn't have to have a ticket. And of course, we rode in the Jim Crow car 'til we got past the Mason-Dixon Line. And came to Chicago and got off at 12th Street and Michigan Avenue, where the I.C. Station was. 

[00:05:33.88]

And down in the little town of St. Rose, the schooling that we got was very meager. The Black children only went to school a part of the time of the year. And then they had to—school had to be turned out so everybody could go pick cotton or cut sugar cane. And we didn't even have a school of our own. We went to school in the Baptist Church. I remember that very clearly, because as little kids, we used to crawl under the pews, you know? And my mother was the teacher. And she had only gone to the eighth grade. But then you see, eighth grade was enough for you to be a teacher if you were teaching Black kids. 

[00:06:20.14]

And she had what you call a diversified classroom today, which they decided—so new and so innovative—a diversified classroom. That is a classroom where you have all ages and all grades and everything. And one teacher drives herself mad trying to teach all of that stuff like that. And I remember that she would be teaching some of the older kids, and we little ones would crawl under the benches and crawl out, and going outside, be playing until she discovered, and come and shooed us back in and so forth and so on. 

[00:06:53.59]

I think the main thing I remember about that town was—a village, really, it was a village—was the floods. And when the river, the Mississippi—it was right on the Mississippi River. And when the river would rise, and how everybody would be so upset and excited and frightened. And the children, we were really frightened because the water would come right up to the edge of the levee and flap on over sometimes, you know? And we had to leave our houses and go into the big church, the Baptist Church, you know, to be safe, because—

[00:07:30.49]

ANNA TYLER:  Now, the church was on higher ground, I guess? 

[00:07:33.49]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  It was either on higher ground, or it was built up. And so—and the houses were flooding. And so we were in there. Anyhow, that's the main thing I remember about that. And we can go on from there. 

[00:07:50.17]

ANNA TYLER:  Okay. Well, what are your early recollections of Chicago? Because you began school here. And you know, the neighborhood that your family settled in, what was the racial makeup at that time? 

[00:08:05.44]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  [Laughs.] Well, you know, when Blacks came in Chicago, Blacks almost in every town lived around the railroad tracks, around the tracks, close to the railroad tracks. And so at that time, I guess, 1920, '21, '22—time of this great migration, they would get off at 12th Street, and they would move in areas as close to the railroad tracks as possible. 

[00:08:34.99]

At the time we came, Blacks were living around 26th, 29th, 30th [Streets –Ed.], and we moved in with my uncle on 31st in Cottage Grove. And we lived there for a time until my father got a job in the stockyards. And my mother got a job doing domestic work over in Hyde Park someplace. And then we were able to get our own flat. 

[00:09:03.75]

And of course, that was really quite a thing when you got your own flat. And that was on 35th and Rhodes, on the site where the Lake Meadows Shopping Center is now. And there was a police station right next door, and a drugstore across the street at 35th and Rhodes with those glass bulbs with the colored water in them. I always remember those. 

[00:09:29.77]

And we went to the Doolittle School. I remember the police station, because we were little kids, and they had the men down in the cells, and there would be bars on the windows. But we would go by the alley, and the men would call us and they would give us a nickel to call their families and let them know they were in jail. So we used to do that. And I think that developed—early in me, it developed an attitude about the police, you know, and police brutality and all that sort of stuff. 

[00:10:09.40]

ANNA TYLER:  In other words, they weren't even entitled to one phone call or one—

[00:10:13.78]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  That's right. Well, see—

[00:10:14.44]

ANNA TYLER:  —message sent officially by somebody to their families. 

[00:10:18.26]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, the reason why so—you can imagine how bad it was in those days, because it's bad enough these days. But the reason why there are so many Black men in the penitentiaries, which I visit regularly—going Sunday to Stateville—is because most of the Black guys, they don't have a lawyer. They don't even have a quarter to call anybody. And before they know it, they're shipped off someplace. You see the trial comes up and before their families get anybody to come up there and speak for them, they're shipped off. Now, the white boys are able to get in touch with somebody, and they come and bail them out, you know? Then go to trial. 

[00:10:55.73]

ANNA TYLER:  Right. 

[00:10:56.02]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  And they get a defense set up and so forth and so on. But there's just a trap set for Black men and boys early in life to get them in the computer so that anything comes up, they can get them, because—they take them off the street. Take them out. And the government would rather pay $30,000 a year to maintain—

[00:11:21.16]

ANNA TYLER:  Keep them contained in jail. 

[00:11:22.15]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  —one guy contained in there than to have him out on the streets. Because if he gets out on the streets, he might really begin to see what is happening. And they might become active in demonstrations and protests and so forth and so on like that. So you take them off the street. But that's getting away from our story. 

[00:11:39.68]

ANNA TYLER:  All right. Now, the thing that I'm—during your grade school, I want to know at what time did you show early talent for the arts, as well as the kind of support that you got in school for your creativity? 

[00:12:00.10]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, I can remember into, you know, first, second and third grade or whatever it is that I began to show this ability to art—sensitivity to line, form and color and design. My sister Marian, she was a good dancer. My sister Dorothy was a good singer. So my sister Dorothy would sing. My sister Marion would dance. And I was the one that would draw and recite. 

[00:12:40.68]

And I remember we used to go to my uncle's house after we'd moved on 35th and Grove. We used to go back and visit my uncle on Saturdays, and we would do our performances to get show fare. I would do my recitations. My sister Dorothy would sing, and my sister Marion would do the Charleston. And my uncle ran a flat. In those days, it was, I guess, a whiskey flat. And people would be there all night, you know? 

[00:13:18.92]

ANNA TYLER:  He had parties. 

[00:13:19.40]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  He ran—he did bootleg whiskey in the bathtub. You know, he made this whiskey out of still and everything like that. That's what everybody was doing. And so some of these people would be left over on Saturday from a Friday night. And so they would give us quarters, and nickels, and dimes. We'd put on our performance, and it was very enjoyable. 

[00:13:40.79]

Well, then I remember that I was the one that was always drawing things, you know? And my mother did not discourage me. In fact, rather, she encouraged me because—well, sometimes I would be drawing. And I'm just being an artist, drawing away. And if there were dishes to be washed, well, my sisters had to wash them because my mother didn't want me disturbed from doing my drawing. And my sisters got very upset about that, saying that mother was favoring me, you know, for letting me do this. 

[00:14:24.22]

Well, anyhow, then coming up in school—and this was further encouraged—particularly, I'd say at the Doolittle School, I remember one incident that always stuck in my mind that my mother—when we went to the school in the country, my mother was a teacher and she had taught us our numbers up to 20, up to 100, and ABCs and so forth and so on. 

[00:14:47.50]

So this white teacher—of course, they were all white teachers at Doolittle School at that time. It was the old Doolittle School. And she had us all up to the board. And I remember it was on the second floor room front. And she said, "Now, I'm going to teach you how to write." And everybody had a piece of chalk. She said, "Now, everybody take your chalk and put it on the board. Yes. Now follow me as I make an A." And she went around and made an a. So before she could get through making the A, I had done B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J—I think I got to about J. And she told me, "Stop!" And she said, "Go and stand in the corner!" You know, you're not obeying the director's law. I found it very difficult to understand why I should be admonished for being smart. 

[00:15:40.90]

ANNA TYLER:  So with that, I mean, you already were getting a taste of what life could be like in the Chicago public schools. 

[00:15:48.89]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  What life would be like. Anyhow, it was many years later that I understood what was happening, that after I became a teacher, that I understood what was happening. That many of these people, their main role was to try to discourage you and try to break your spirit, try to discourage you. Fortunately, that did not discourage me, because I kept right on, you see? 

[00:16:13.66]

ANNA TYLER:  And then at what school—this was when you were in seventh grade, you met Miss Ryan, who was very encouraging and supportive of you. 

[00:16:24.70]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, we went to—from the Doolittle School, we transferred, I think, about the fourth grade and went to St. Elizabeth's 'til about the sixth grade. And then we began to move south as the Black population continued to move south. And we ended up at—[background noise]. Well, then we moved out to 58th Street. Is that banging bothering you? [Background noise]. 

[00:17:08.31]

We attended St. Elizabeth's school for a couple of years. And then we moved further south, because the Black population in Chicago has been steadily moving south ever since the migration began. And my teacher at Carter School, which is at 58th and Michigan, was Miss Mary L. Ryan, a Catholic lady, a maiden lady. And she really recognized my talent. She was very encouraging. She had taught people like Charles Sebree and William Sanford. 

[00:17:51.86]

ANNA TYLER:  Okay. 

[00:17:52.24]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Sanford, I think, and Sebree had either preceded me. I know Sanford had, because he was older than I, and Sebree had—

[00:18:01.55]

ANNA TYLER:  And this is Walter Sanford? 

[00:18:02.45]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Walter Sanford, yes. And Sebree had passed through there. [Background noise.] And—it's a TV. That's a talk program. But anyhow, she was the art teacher, and I had a great admiration for her. She was a small woman. She dressed beautifully. And so I found myself just looking at how she dressed and how she acted, how she talked. And I said, "I want to be like her." Like many kids, you know, you pick a role model. 

[00:18:40.55]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, yeah, and your teacher—

[00:18:41.82]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  So I would say that maybe she was the first role model, you know, outside of parents. And she encouraged me. She let me draw. She encouraged me in my development of creative writing. Thoroughly creative person. 

[00:19:00.24]

And when I graduated from grammar school and went on to high school, she said, "Well, you be sure to come back and see me regularly." So I remember the first time I decided to go back to see her with my report card. And I had gone to high school, and I was grown up. And I had put on lipstick and rouge and fingernail polish and all. 

[00:19:26.62]

And so I strutted up to the elementary school and to her room, and she took one look at me and she said, "Young lady, I see that you've improved quite a bit in your art. In fact, you have it all over your face! You immediately go to the girls' washroom and wash all of that stuff off of your face." I was so embarrassed. I went and washed it off. And up until this day, I've been very leery about wearing a lot of makeup. 

[00:19:52.86]

ANNA TYLER:  A lot of makeup. 

[00:19:53.77]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  And I think it stems way back to that. 

[00:19:55.69]

ANNA TYLER:  Now, was this in your freshman year that you went back? 

[00:19:59.04]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yeah. I would go back—

[00:20:00.13]

ANNA TYLER:  What year did you graduate from high school? 

[00:20:02.40]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  June 1933. So then when I would go back and visit her regularly. And then when I came to graduate, well, I had won a scholarship to Howard University, but it was only a tuition scholarship. There was no room and board and transportation. And my parents could not afford to send me. 

[00:20:29.76]

So when I talked to Miss Ryan about this, she said, "Well, I tell you what we'll do. We'll coach you to pass the teachers' [exam –Ed.] to get into the teachers college." Chicago Normal College was called at that time. And so I would go up there. I graduated, and then for a full semester, I would go every day up to Miss Ryan's room and sit in the back of the room and study these exams to pass to get into Normal College. 

[00:20:59.55]

So I finally took this examination. And she would quiz me, and all that kind of stuff. And I passed the examination. I got 100 in art, and I got average 85 in everything else because this examination consisted of English, history, grammar, math, and all that stuff. So that was when I started out at Chicago Normal College. I think that was in 1935. Let me see. No, '34, because I took that year or so out where I was studying. 

[00:21:41.68]

And at that time, Chicago Normal College educated people who became teachers in the Chicago schools. There was a quota on Blacks and minorities—Blacks and Jews. So you had to be exceptional to get in there. There was an open-door policy for the girls who came out of the Catholic schools because all they did was put a little cross or a little sign on their paper, and they knew that they were from a Catholic school. And that's why you found so many Irish Catholic teachers ending up in the Chicago school system. 

[00:22:19.60]

I went there. Oh, when I was in high school, I enrolled in an art course. Now, my uncle had told me not to take an art course, to take something practical that I could make a living from. But I slipped and signed up for the art course anyhow. And by the time they found out, it was too late for me to change out of the art course. 

[00:22:44.89]

At Englewood, I had such teachers as Miss Agnes Danlicker, nice lady, and several others whom I remember very fondly. I had a very good division teacher who was not prejudiced at all, but who was teaching young people, not Black or white. And he was very encouraging. And in fact, I think it was he who went out of his way to write to Howard University to try to get me this scholarship. I was on the honor roll—an honor roll student, and all that stuff. I did drawings that appeared in the yearbook, which I still have the yearbook and some of my cartoons and drawings that appeared in there. And that was considered a great accomplishment to see your work in the yearbook, as you well know. 

[00:23:34.84]

ANNA TYLER:  Now, what was the student population in terms of the ratio of Black to white back in those days at Englewood High School? 

[00:23:42.80]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  When I went to Englewood, it was 70 percent white and 30 percent Black, a situation similar to what occurred at Gage Park a few years ago. They did not want us there. They did everything to discourage us. We Black kids had to gang together to get to school because Wentworth was the dividing line. We lived on the East side of Wentworth. So we had to go in bunches for self-protection. And then when we came home, we had to gather in bunches—

[00:24:21.67]

ANNA TYLER:  Bunches. 

[00:24:22.27]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  —to get back across there without them throwing stones at us and stuff like that. But we overcame. And now, that whole area is all Black. 

[00:24:32.98]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, that whole area is all Black. And then—

[00:24:37.12]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  You had a few—some good sincere teachers, like Mr. Fitzgerald or these art teachers that really work with us. But then you had some that were prejudiced as heck and resented us coming in. Back on to Chicago Normal College, well, by that time, my major was pretty well established as art. 

[00:25:03.17]

And so—I forget the head of the art department. Anyhow, he was very sensitive man, a very good man, a very honest man. He was very encouraging. At Chicago Normal College, besides having an opportunity to do art as much as I wanted to, I was also in the athletic program. At Englewood, I won an athletic E, purple and white E. And also at Chicago Normal College, I won my N, which meant CN—Chicago Normal College. 

[00:25:45.48]

ANNA TYLER:  Wonderful. 

[00:25:45.95]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Which I still have those trophies somewhere. They'll probably end up in the museum. In fact, I was elected vice president of the Women's Athletic Association at Chicago Normal College, and there were only about ten Blacks there. So somebody else had to vote for me. 

[00:26:02.18]

ANNA TYLER:  What was the cost of the tuition back in those days? 

[00:26:06.50]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  We only we only paid 20 bucks a semester. 

[00:26:09.41]

ANNA TYLER:  Wow. 

[00:26:09.74]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  See, that's why it was important to go there, because we only paid 20 bucks a semester, which took care of books. And it was a Normal School, Cook County, under Cook County. And that was the only way I would have been able to go because I had a girlfriend, Jane Kalas Evans. Have you ever heard of her? 

[00:26:31.59]

ANNA TYLER:  No. 

[00:26:32.28]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  No, you've never heard of her. But anyhow, she graduated from high school with me. We were both in advanced art courses. Her father was a doctor, and her mother was a professional. Jane was able to go straight down to the Art Institute from high school. I couldn't. I couldn't do it that way because my folks didn't have any money. So I had to go to Normal College. 

[00:26:57.86]

And I had to work after school. I think I remember babysitting for some Jewish lawyer over in Hyde Park. I'd have to leave school and go over there and sit there until they came back from their social events at 10:00 or 11:00 at night. And then he would drive me home. And I had to do my homework and so forth and so on. 

[00:27:15.98]

But anyhow—and it took me—we did three years at the Normal College. Then we had to do another year—because it was only a three-year school, but we had to do this other year at someplace like DePaul or Loyola, or someplace to get the fourth year to get your degree. So I started—but you could, with the certificate, start substitute teaching. So I started substitute teaching in the morning. And then I enrolled at the Art Institute in the afternoon and evenings. 

[00:27:50.73]

And so while it would take one person ordinarily just a year to get through, it took me two years because I was going half-time. And so after I got my bachelor's, then the woman who was head of the education department, art education department, she told me, she said, "Look, now, you still have some credits from Normal College that have not been applied. And if you will continue in school, I will fix this record so that you get credit for those on a master's." So I continued and was able to use those credits. And I think I got my bachelor's in '46 and got my master's in '48 from the Art Institute in art education. And of course, art education was a means of doing your art and also eating. 

[00:28:46.14]

ANNA TYLER:  Which is extremely important for artists. 

[00:28:48.25]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  So that even though my girlfriend, Jane, went on through straight four years and had it paid for her, you never heard of her, have you? 

[00:28:55.60]

ANNA TYLER:  No. 

[00:28:56.07]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  No, you never heard of her. 

[00:28:56.85]

ANNA TYLER:  Absolutely. 

[00:28:57.57]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  So I think sometimes having some challenges can make you much stronger. Brings out strong points in you that if you just have it handed to you on a silver platter. 

[00:29:06.01]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, you know, I think it tests your survival skills. And certainly, we have not heard of Jane. And there are probably other women that we are not familiar with from Chicago area. So it certainly does prove itself out. As a young person in the community, the arts in our community was beginning to grow. How did you meet some of the artists that you know, including some of the writers, like, for example, Gwendolyn Brooks? Were you all friends from childhood or—

[00:29:45.00]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  No, [Gwendolyn and I –Ed.] were friends from youthhood. But how did I get to meet some of these artists? 

[00:29:49.62]

ANNA TYLER:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

[00:29:53.57]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I graduated in 1937 from Teachers College. And in about '39, they began to—you had the Federal Art Project going on at that time. And they began to talk about setting up an art center. And so I became part of an artist group. You know, we artists always like to hang together. And the South Side Community House, South Side Settlement House, which was directed by—what's her name? Well, I forget this lady's name right now. I can't remember it. 

[00:30:39.42]

It was at 33rd and Wabash, and they had art classes. Some of the art classes were taught by people by the name of George Neal. And we were about 18 or 19 or something. So they had art contests. Ada S. McKinley was the director. Ada S. McKinley. Now, they renamed the place the Ada S. McKinley after her.

[00:31:03.73]

ANNA TYLER:  McKinley Center. 

[00:31:04.54]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  And so they had this art contest. And Mr. Golden B. Darby, who was with the Victory Mutual Life Insurance Company, had gotten some money from the insurance company for prizes for this art contest. And so we all entered in this art contest. Charles Sebree, I guess, was in it. And several of us—Charles White, all of us were like teenage people. And I won my first prize in that little exhibit, you know, with a certificate. And I think we got $10, which was like $100 back then and all. So that was very encouraging, you know? 

[00:31:46.65]

And then they would have little art fairs. I remember particularly they had one down in Grant Park. And I was down there with my watercolors. And that little painting up there of the little brown baby was from that period. And I think that was 1932, signed "M. Taylor." And apparently somebody bought it from me. 

[00:32:12.35]

Well, many years later, I guess—[counting] '30 to '40 to '50 to '60 or '70—about 40 years later, somebody called me from over in Hyde Park and said, "Was your maiden name Taylor?" I said, "Yes." "Did you used to do watercolors of little brown children?" I said, "Yes." They said, "Well, there's a lady over here in Hyde Park, and she's retired. And she's moving away, and she's breaking up housekeeping and all. And she's selling her things. And she has this little watercolor. She said that she bought it from a young Black girl so many years ago down in Grant Park at an art fair." So I found out where she was. I immediately went down and bought the painting. So that's what I have—one of the earliest pieces of the work that I remember that survived. And this wasn't bad in its technique, either. 

[00:33:04.52]

ANNA TYLER:  Now, on those Grant Park art fairs, you know, I guess I have heard it rumored that there was even problems of those fairs being integrated, of Black artists getting into those fairs. Was that so back in '32? 

[00:33:21.39]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, I'm sure there was a certain amount of it, because you still have problems even today with Hyde Park and with the Old Town [Art Fairs –Ed.] that rather limits, puts limitations on Black artists, you know? So that's nothing strange about that. 

[00:33:42.67]

ANNA TYLER:  I know a few—Joe Kersey had told me a story. It was just a few years later when he met Eleanor Roosevelt. And one of the things he was doing was protesting the Grant Park Art Fair because there was difficulty in accepting all of the artists of the community. 

[00:34:01.42]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  That's true. Well, and then we started organizing to develop the South Side Community Arts Center. And many of us came together there, Carter and all the rest of them. Fred Jones. Fred Jones—when I was at the Art Institute, there were several like Fred Jones, who was at the Art Institute. Jenelsie Walden, who moved back to Atlanta, and others like that, that we became friends with and remained friends. And many of them came in as working for the South Side Community Arts Center, which was started under the auspices of the WPA in 1941.

[00:34:48.26]

And from that point on, the Art Center became a rallying point. But the immediate predecessor of the Art Center was George E. Neal. And George E. Neal had studios at 33rd and Michigan, a coach house. And he would have us always down there, and we would have exhibits, little exhibits and receptions and teas. And George was going to classes at the Art Institute. And then he would come back—then on Saturday, we would come down, and then he would teach us what he had learned at the Art Institute. We'd have sketch class, and he would pass it on to us, because it cost money and not many of us could afford to go down there. 

And so he was a central figure for a long time. He was a close friend of Joe Kersey's. They were close associates. And of course, he died [in 1938 –Ed.] at a very early age of—I think it was tuberculosis or something like that, at about age 36. But he had been recorded in Alain Locke's book, in some of the early volumes on Black art. But I think he deserves credit to—well, mention for having inspired and kept together our whole generation of young artists. See, we was included in that group, Charles White and many of us. 

[00:36:18.03]

ANNA TYLER:  One of the things I wanted to ask you, and this is when you were in high school, did you ever have the opportunity to attend those Saturday lecture classes at the Art Institute? 

[00:36:30.67]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I went to the Thursday classes. Elementary school, I went on Thursdays. And on Saturdays, I did go to the James Nelson Raymond Scholarship classes that was taught by Watson. I forget his name. His name was Watson. And then Karl Buehr was his assistant, both deceased. 

[00:36:58.53]

And those classes were very important and very significant because you would receive an assignment, and you'd go home over the week, and then you would do your assignment, and you'd bring it in the next week. And you'd hand them in. And then they would rate them "good, excellent, and superior." And you'd get a red star or a gold star or a blue star according to those values. And if you got so many gold stars, you got an "HM," an honorable mention pin that you could wear. 

[00:37:37.81]

And then usually those students who came to those classes, when it was time for them to graduate from high school, they would bring portfolios down and present to the Art Institute. And they usually got some brownie points for having been in those classes. You know, they had a scholarship that you could try out for. 

[00:37:55.87]

ANNA TYLER:  So there was a definite outreach into the community to have city students—

[00:38:02.24]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yes, it was. 

[00:38:02.95]

ANNA TYLER:  —as students there? 

[00:38:03.35]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Very good idea. 

[00:38:04.78]

ANNA TYLER:  I think it's an excellent idea. 

[00:38:05.56]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I think it's been helpful to many people, particularly inner city Black young people, because most of the people that were able to afford to go to Art Institute came from—they were those wealthy North Shore kids, you know? Money was no problem with them. 

[00:38:21.91]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, I know Al Tyler tells me that at the time that's how he became involved at the Art Institute, was through those classes. With this Arts and Crafts Guild, you were active in that. That was an early Chicago—

[00:38:40.71]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  That preceded the South Side Community Arts Center. It was an Art Crafts Guild, which a gentleman by the name of Mr. William McGill, who was a commercial sign painter, who was the president. And we used to meet from house to house. We used to have exhibits at the "Y" or in church basements and places like that. And it was only when many of those people came behind the movement to establish an art center where we would have a gallery to show in the Black community. 

[00:39:16.71]

ANNA TYLER:  As far as places other than churches and community houses, you know, in the late '30s, were there any other places around town that Black artists had a chance to showcase their works, that do you recall? 

[00:39:35.97]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  No. 

[00:39:39.00]

ANNA TYLER:  What about this Katharine Kuh Gallery? Was that later? I understand. 

[00:39:43.98]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I believe—

[00:39:44.70]

ANNA TYLER:  Marion [Perkins –Ed.] and Sebree exhibited there. 

[00:39:46.72]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  No, I think that was later, after the Art Center was established, that she exhibited some Black artists. Also, Peter Pollock had a gallery. Peter Pollock was the first director of the South Side Community Arts Center. And he was appointed by the WPA, you know? He was paid by the WPA. But he had prior to taking that job, he had a little gallery on North Michigan Avenue where he had shown some of the Black artists, I think including myself. You know, Bernard Goss—

[00:40:23.08]

ANNA TYLER:  Marion Perkins was a very good friend of yours. You both had a very close-knit relationship and respected each other's talents. How did you and Marion become friends? 

[00:40:37.44]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, I'll tell you the truth, Marion Perkins—I was riding on the Indiana streetcar past 37th Street, and we saw this man sitting out there with a paper stand on the east side of the street of 37th Street, and chipping on stone. And he was carving stone, and he was selling his newspapers. 

[00:41:07.79]

And then pretty soon thereafter, there appeared an article somebody wrote about him in the newspaper, and had pictures of him in there in the newspaper. And I think subsequently we met him through the South Side Community Art Center. And we just became very great friends, because he was such a sensitive person and became sort of a mentor, you know, somebody that you could talk to and ask questions of, and all and so forth and so on. 

[00:41:36.20]

And he had learned something about stone carving from these classes in the South Side Community Arts Center taught by Si Gordon, who was on WPA because the teachers were paid by WPA. And so he developed to be an outstanding artist. He won prizes. He got a couple of pieces in the Art Institute. And he was just a very fine friend. 

[00:42:08.75]

And he had three sons, two of whom became prominent in the arts, Toussaint Perkins, who has done painting, but is doing silkscreen work now. And Eugene Perkins, who became a social worker and a poet and a playwright, who worked with the Better Boys Foundation, who worked for the Urban League, and who now is director of the Urban League out in Washington State or Oregon, or someplace like that. 

[00:42:47.03]

ANNA TYLER:  There were quite a few young artists at the time, Bernard Goss, Vernon [Guider –Ed.] and Harold Winslow. Are there some others that you recall know in the late '30s and '40s that you all hung out together and really planned to showcase your work? 

[00:43:09.50]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I think you've named them all, including Joe Kersey, and George Neal, and William Carter. And I think there was Henry Avery. There was a—we had a primitive folk artist whose name I've forgotten, but it's listed in the annals. That's really that's about all I can remember. You've already mentioned this Alfred Jackson, who was in Atlanta or someplace, I understand. 

[00:43:53.54]

Many of them moved away, you know, because—well, like Eldzier Cortor, the opportunities for artists were for exhibiting and selling and all was on the East Coast pretty much. And so many of them moved away, and you never heard about them again. Doug—there was one fellow named Douglas. One would have to really sit down and record them. But they all—

[00:44:20.84]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, and then Harold Winslow moved to Mexico. 

[00:44:24.36]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yeah, Winslow moved down to Mexico, while another Winslow brother, Vernon, was co-director of the Art Center in New Orleans. And they just went many places. But we always kept a core of the artists together. We always had them. And I think that many of them centered around my studio or Perkins's place. You know, we were always around with each other, eating. George Neal used to feed us very well. Carter fed us very well. You could always stop, drop in, and get a meal. 

[00:45:09.31]

ANNA TYLER:  Which certainly was important in those times. 

[00:45:12.73]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:45:13.54]

ANNA TYLER:  The show at the Coliseum, the American Negro Exposition in 1940, I happened to notice that there was quite a representation from Chicago. That was quite a big exhibition then. 

[00:45:32.41]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I think that was celebrating the 75th anniversary of the Emancipation Proclamation, if I remember correctly. It was at the Coliseum. They had this significant show. They had things from Chicago artists, but they had them from all over—Washington, DC. They had—from Howard University. And Lonnie Aden was the curator. 

[END OF TRACK AAA_burrou88_2870_m]

[00:00:03.11]

ANNA TYLER:  [This is a continuation of an oral history interview with –Ed.] Margaret Goss Burroughs, November 11, 1988. 

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

You and Elizabeth Catlett became friends. At one time, the two of you shared living quarters together. I think you were living on Vernon. 

[00:00:20.33]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yeah. Well, I think I received the—I had gotten a studio. Rosalie Davis and I had gotten a studio at—it was a coach house, a nice little coach house at 6243 South Vernon. 

[00:00:46.69]

ANNA TYLER:  Now, is that the same Rosalie Davis that's on the Art Center board? 

[00:00:49.47]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yes. Rosalie and I have been friends since grammar school. We were in eighth grade together. 

[00:00:55.40]

ANNA TYLER:  And she is an artist? 

[00:00:56.60]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  No, Rosalie writes poetry and stuff like that. 

[00:00:59.85]

ANNA TYLER:  She's a writer. Okay. 

[00:01:00.39]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  But we've been friends for a long time. And we graduated in 1929 from grammar school together. So you know how long we go back. So I had—at that time had a child, Gayle, and was separated or divorced from Bernard Goss, my first husband. And so Rosalie and I decided to find ourselves a coach house apartment and move in together. So we found this one building owned by a dentist, Dr. Jones, a dentist. And the rent was nominal, and it had three small bedrooms and a sitting room up on the second floor. And it had a sitting room and a kitchen and a small garage space on the first floor. So we rented it. 

[00:02:02.80]

And I got a phone call from Elizabeth Catlett, whom I did not know at the time. And she said that she was going to be attending the Art Institute that particular summer. And someone had told her—she was looking for a place to stay, and someone had told her to contact me and Rosalie, so which she did. And we—since we had this extra small bedroom upstairs and the little garage area—which we had no car, so it was like a utility room—we allowed her to move in with us, and she did her stone chipping and all in there. 

[00:02:43.52]

She had a bedroom. And we got along very well together. But it was there, however, that she met Charles White. Because Charles White had come to—he was my friend, and he'd come by to see us. And so that's how they met and struck up an association. She was not married. He was not married. And I think he wanted to go to New York to the big time, go east to the big time. And so that's how they got together and they got married. 

[00:03:18.72]

ANNA TYLER:  And subsequently he went—the two of them went south. 

[00:03:23.64]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yeah, well, they were at—I think they were at Hampton, too. 

[00:03:28.26]

ANNA TYLER:  Yeah, Hampton [and then to Dillard University in Louisiana –Ed.] 

[00:03:29.35]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Because he painted a mural at Hampton. 

[00:03:31.98]

ANNA TYLER:  Now, we're moving into the war years, or we're into the war years at this point. Your newsletter, Life with Margaret—just how did that come about? 

[00:03:51.14]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  [Laughs.] Well, there were all the guys who had gone to the service. And I think a lot of people were thinking about what they could do to help. And so I decided to start the newsletter Life with Margaret, and just write them on a regular basis. And I could not afford to be writing all individual letters, because so many of my friends and all relatives and everybody else were in the service, that I just had it mimeographed, because mimeographing was just coming. They didn't have Xerox then, or copiers, but they did have the mimeograph. And so we mimeographed them and sent them out, telling them news of what was going on at home, what I was doing, and so forth. Some of the fellows were highly insulted at receiving a mimeographed letter, but I figured it was either get a mimeographed letter or none at all. 

And through that, I got some—they passed their letters on to some of the officers, and I got correspondence from them. And some of them turned out to be very decent people. One thing they would write in their letters—they were telling me about all of the prejudice and discrimination and all of that stuff that they went through. So that provided an outlet for them at least to get it off of their chest. 

[00:05:09.58]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, and then it seems that the military had sent around a memo to the servicemen in Mississippi about how they were to behave. And consequently, there was a young man that ended up in jail. And that was communicated to you because there was a white woman that had beer spilled on her dress by accident, and he was put in prison for a year and a half. So you became quite active in protesting to Washington the problems of the Black military. 

[00:05:53.43]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Forgot all about it. Well, at that time, I was protesting whatever needed to be protested against. I was a young radical. I guess I'm an old radical now. But I believe that people should be involved, and I also believe that art itself should be used as a weapon. That's the reason why most of my work has to do with people or social conditions and so forth. And I'm not ashamed of that. 

[00:06:22.25]

ANNA TYLER:  What is it—back in the '20s and '30s, people out on the East Coast were developing these philosophies as to the kind of art that we should create as Black artists. I see from looking through your work that you've always had a creed and a philosophy about your work. Would you like to elaborate a little bit more on how that consciousness [developed? –Ed.]

[00:06:56.49]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, I just feel—I've just always felt that—back in the Renaissance time, back in early caveman period, art was always communication. In the caveman period, they drew the animals on the cave, the animals on the walls, showing the hunt, showing what the people were doing. 

[00:07:18.67]

In Egypt, in the hieroglyphs, they showed the people's activities, what they were doing, and so forth and so on, so that you could read how people lived at those times. In Greek art, you saw the portrayal of how people lived and what they did. And I feel that art is a means of communication, and that art is the response to the times. 

[00:07:42.71]

And of course, in our times and the things that we have to go through, the Jim Crowism, the racism that you had to protest against, the fact that you still have to show—that even though they would try to make you believe that Black is ugly, we must show them that Black is beautiful. We must show our people that Black is beautiful. 

[00:08:04.08]

Art should make a statement, a positive statement. That's just always been my philosophy, and always will be. And I don't care whether the academies, the Art Institute or Metropolitan Museum or whatever, never show my work. Because I have concluded that the main audience for my work, as far as I'm concerned, the important audience, are the little people, the street people— [Audio distortion.] And I believe the same in my creative writing. Everything that I write must make a statement. I think that every artist or every writer, whatever they say should be a statement for the liberation—the total, complete liberation of our people. 

[00:08:56.44]

I do not see any—I know—I realize that the system—and when I say "the system," I mean the capitalistic system—encourages artists to do all this stuff that says nothing, non-objective whatever it is, polka dots, dashes and so forth. And many, many artists fall for it because they are richly rewarded by $2,000 or $3,000 and so forth and so on. And so they promulgate that upon the people, which is utterly meaningless, which is negative, and which doesn't help any. 

[00:09:33.79]

So they can go ahead and do that. And they will be touted by the establishment as our great artists. They are put before us as the great artists. But I think in time, their art will not even be remembered, because in the final essence, art is communication. And the reason why we are able to understand the Renaissance or the people that painted at that time or how they lived and all that because we can understand what the artist was trying to say. He was trying to give a message. And that's what I think. 

[00:10:11.13]

ANNA TYLER:  In terms of your creative writing, at what was the earliest time that you had something published? I happened to notice that—I guess this was during the war—Freedom Road by Howard Fast, that you had to have read that book and did a critique that was published in one of the local newspapers. And that information was also included in your newsletter, Life with Margaret. 

[00:10:41.34]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, I used to do a column for the Associated Negro Press, of which the editor was Frank Marshall Davis, the poet who passed away about two years ago in Hawaii, and who was also a very good friend of mine. And I guess that's how I started writing. Because when you write something, and you see your byline, it makes you feel real proud. And that's what I wrote. 

[00:11:10.30]

And the Associated Negro Press under Claude Barnett, who was Etta Moten Barnett's husband—he's deceased also. They paid you about one-fourth of a cent a word, so that I would get this magnificent check of five dollars. It was the first time I had ever gotten any money for writing, so I found out you could get money for writing. [They laugh.]

[00:11:34.29]

Well, I never formally studied any writing, but I would read a short story or an article and study the form. Then I would take that same form and apply it to what I was doing about, you know. I would read a short story, and I said, shucks, I can write a story as good as this. And I'd sit down and write me one, cook up something based on your experience and your imagination. I think being an artistic person and having a lot of imagination, that's what helps you to create things. 

[00:12:04.94]

And I think that every family ought to have an artist in the family. To have a well-balanced family, they should have an artist, people like us who are called crazy, insane, nuts. [They laugh.] But every family deserves one because I think we're the salt of the earth, really. I think we're the best people. 

[00:12:27.19]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, I think we're the ones that also—certainly, we're the ones that really carry on the culture from one generation—[Cross talk.]

[00:12:32.51]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, I think the artist also has the vision. The artist can vision tomorrow. He can make a painting of what this city would look like tomorrow. And architects can be inspired by that, and they begin working toward it, and so then it looks like that. He can paint a picture in words. 

[00:12:52.91]

And another thing I would like to say while I'm talking is that a creative person can be an artist or a poet or an actor or a dancer. They are just—they're the same people, but they're working in different mediums. You can work with paints and colors and all those things. You can work with forms, movements, the dance. You can work with acting, dramatic expressions, and all. That's the drama. And that any really, truly creative person should be able to do all of those things. 

[00:13:31.03]

A true artist should be able to make something creative or artistic out of anything he's got. You just give him whatever you give him—a bunch of papers, a bunch of sticks. He should be able to arrange them so that it's aesthetically pleasing, whatever. At least that's the way I look on it. So that you can take—so that you're not just limited to one medium, like I'm just only going to do watercolor. But you should be able to take the whole world as your material. 

[00:13:58.69]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, isn't—that's what life was about during the Renaissance, the versatility in the arts. 

[00:14:06.36]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  That's right. That's right. People were—they call them the Renaissance men and Renaissance women. They did everything. 

[00:14:15.13]

ANNA TYLER:  One of the things that I think is important to the Black community is its social life. And of course, the artists, Margaret, were not spared of that. Can you give us some insight into the kinds of activities that took place in the '40s—exhibitions and parties, et cetera? 

[00:14:39.25]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, the main thing that the artists had—we had the parties on Friday and Saturday nights, because most of us lived in coach house studios which were on the rear on the alley, where we could make as much noise as we wanted, and nobody bothered to call the police or anything like that. And so we usually met on Saturday nights or Friday nights at each other's studios, and drank beer and told jokes and sort of had warm fellowship and looked at each other's works and things like that. 

[00:15:14.95]

Then the Art Center was the scene of many of the social affairs, principally the Artists' and Models' Ball, which was the major fundraiser for the South Side Community Art Center. And it was held once a year. I think it was probably in the wintertime at the Savoy Ballroom, which has now been—which is now a parking lot, which used to be next door to the Regal Theater, which is not there anymore. So many things are not there anymore. 

[00:15:59.99]

And as a benefit for the Art Center, all of the artists would choose a model. And then the artists would design a costume for that model. And then the dressmakers would each sew that costume, create that costume. And then the night of the ball would be the grand parade of models, the artists with their models. Also, there were dance numbers and music. 

[00:16:35.15]

And the very first director of the Artists' and Models' Ball was Frances Matlock Moseley. She's still alive. She incidentally used to be the sponsor of the NAACP Youth Council, which Gwendolyn and Henry and I were members of. Catherine Flowers, who was a dance teacher, directed one of the balls. And Rosalie Dorsey Davis, my girlfriend that I went to elementary school with, who's married to Charles Davis—she also was one of the directors. There were many beautiful girls. Some of the most beautiful girls in the community appeared in those balls. 

[00:17:30.41]

Sometimes the balls would have various themes. It may be Egypt. It was Streets of Paris, various things like the Caribbean—various things like that. They were very—many, many people came and supported them. And the money raised from that ball usually took care of the DuSable Museum's budget for a year. Not DuSable—

[00:17:55.97]

ANNA TYLER:  Do you mean—

[00:17:56.69]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  The South Side Community Arts Center. [Laughs.] Boy, I'll tell you—the DuSable Museum, of course, started 20 years after the South Side Community Art Center. And it was in effect really an outgrowth of the South Side Community Art Center. So it's kind of understandable why I would make that slip. Because I was the founder of the South Side Community Art Center and got it going on its feet. 

[00:18:25.74]

And then 20 years later, some of us decided that there was room for yet another cultural institution in Chicago, and that is one that would be oriented more toward history. And so that is how the DuSable Museum got started right across the street from the Art Center. And we did this consciously, because this block, 38th block on Michigan Avenue, has always been a place where the cultural institutions clustered. 

[00:18:55.85]

There used to be the Black Spider Club down the street there, which has since been torn down, which is not there anymore. And they used to have affairs and parties and teas and receptions. And then next door, the Episcopal Church—St. Thomas Episcopal Church, owned the mansion next door, and it used to be rented out for various affairs and so forth. 

[00:19:29.01]

And now, looking toward the future, Walter Williams, a young man, has bought a building down toward—closer to 39th Street by the filling station on the east side of the street. And in a few months, probably February, he will be opening up the Ancient Egyptian Museum, which will feature Egyptian art and Egyptian history. There will be classes and stuff like that. So that will be yet another cultural institution that's in this particular block. 

[00:20:04.39]

ANNA TYLER:  Oh, so that's wonderful. It'll still maintain its status in the community as a cultural neighborhood. When you were speaking of the Artists' and Models' Ball as a fundraiser for the programs at the Art Center, under the direction of—who were some of the early directors of the Art Center? 

[00:20:26.59]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, let me see. I think the first director was Rex Goreleigh. No, the very first director was Peter Pollock. And Peter Pollock was a white man, Jewish, who opened up the first gallery down on Michigan Avenue, which advertised or carried the works of the Black artists, including people like Charles Sebree, et cetera. 

[00:20:52.20]

And then the WPA started, and he went to work on that. And he became the project director for the South Side, and for the South Side Community Art Center. And he was assigned to that. And he met with a group of interested community people up in the parlors of an undertaking establishment on 55th Street between Wabash and Michigan Avenue. That building does not stand anymore. 

[00:21:25.59]

And among the people there was myself and a number of the artists and—young artists at that time. We were all young. And the decision was to—we were informed that the WPA, the Federal Arts Project, would assist us in setting up an arts center, cultural center, in our community. It was to be one of some 50-odd set up throughout the country in inner city neighborhoods. And if the community committee could find and purchase a building, that the Federal Art Project would staff it and pay the salaries and the operational expenses. 

[00:22:21.43]

And so that committee did get together [in October 1938 –Ed.] and had a search committee to find a building. They did find the building, which was the old Comiskey mansion, which is across the street at 3831 South Michigan Avenue. And they were able to purchase it for the sum of $12,000. In those days, many of these mansion homes—the owners—the white owners were fleeing them. They were selling them out, complete with furniture in it. 

[00:22:59.24]

And so then these large houses were taken over by Black people, who cut them up into smaller apartments and things like that. So the WPA paid the money to renovate and redesign the Comiskey mansion. And it turned out to be the only gallery, and I guess it's still the only gallery, functional gallery, in the Black community, either South Side or West Side. And had classrooms and ceramic room and an auditorium up on the third floor. And it was opened in 1941, and it has been operating continuously, sometimes on a high level and sometimes just dragging along, because there was low valleys and high mountains. But it will be approaching its 50th year, 1941, when—[counting] '41, '51, '61, '71, '91. 

[00:24:10.01]

ANNA TYLER:  '91. 

[00:24:10.87]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  In 1991, it will celebrate its 50th year of continuous operation. And I think that's probably a record for any Black cultural institution in the United States. I understand there are only three that were left of all of those that were set up by the WPA back in the '40s, and the South Side Community Art Center is one. 

[00:24:35.19]

ANNA TYLER:  Is one of them. 

[00:24:35.94]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  This Art Center—anyone—any Black artist or writer who amounted anything passed through those doors. I'm thinking of people like Eldzier Cortor, who served for a short period of time as the director of the center, the resident director. Rex Goreleigh followed Peter Pollock. David Ross, now deceased. Goreleigh is deceased also. And Gordon Roger Parks, the great LIFE magazine photographer, came from Minnesota and was looking for a studio. And he was allowed to set up the darkroom down in the basement, and there he worked. Charles White worked in the classes there, had exhibits there. 

[00:25:27.27]

ANNA TYLER:  Hughie Lee-Smith was the director. 

[00:25:29.67]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yeah, Hughie Lee-Smith came in as the director. You name it, and they were there. And I think this institution played a very significant role, and is still playing a significant role in the Black cultural community. I had my first exhibit there. I think Bernard Goss had his first exhibit there. All of the artists. Well, there was no other place for us to exhibit, you see. 

[00:26:04.05]

ANNA TYLER:  From the material that I've been exposed to, in those early days, there was quite a social interaction among both Blacks and whites that all centered around the Art Center. Emil Armond also was active at the Art Center in its early days. And I'm trying to think—Harold Haydon. 

[00:26:34.15]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, we had people like Ed and Joyce Gourfain, who lived over in Hyde Park. I think Ed was in advertising, or something like that and Joyce was an artist, and they were very good friends of the Black people. They were—I think Ed served on the board of the South Side Art Center. Those were the days of "Black and White, Unite and Fight." Black and white people were together all the time. We were in each other's homes. It wasn't like it is now, where if you see a white person coming to your house, they say, what's wrong? 

[00:27:17.17]

Or you see—after—it was—the thing that broke that up was the '50s and the McCarthy scare. And the McCarthy period came on, where McCarthy was—everybody under the bed was a communist. And certainly, any Black person who had a white friend was a communist, and any white person who had a Black friend was a communist. And so people began to be frightened, and they got away from each other. But hopefully, I see this as beginning to heal back again. People are beginning to recognize each other as human beings. 

[00:27:50.06]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, I'm particularly interested in this phase of Blacks and Jews, simply because I know—

[00:27:55.99]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, we had people like Si Gordon. Well, now, the Gourfains were Jewish. We had people like Si Gordon who taught classes over at the South Side Community Arts Center and who was Marion Perkins's first teacher, and who was very inspirational to many of the young Black artists. And besides, he was a wonderful guy. He lived over at 35th and Lake Park. There were some buildings, some storefronts, an arcade of storefronts which were left over from the World's Fair of 1893. And so the artists moved into these and made living quarters and studios out of them. 

[00:28:43.55]

And I particularly remember myself and Charles White going over to visit Si Gordon. I think we were about 17 or 18. And I looked up at Si Gordon's bookshelf, and I saw these books. And there was one about Harriet Tubman and a picture of her. And he said, "Oh, you want to look at it? Look at it." I look at it, and here was this Black woman, great Black woman. So he said, "You want to borrow it? You can take it home, but just be sure to bring it back." And I tell you the truth, that Si Gordon gave me my first introduction to Black history, for which I appreciated. And after I read that book and I came back again, he said, "Well, here's another one." And I guess he knew what he was doing. He was planting seeds. 

[00:29:33.17]

And there were people like Morris Topchevsky, who was the resident artist at Abraham Lincoln Center before it became the Center for Inner City Studies. And he would always have us to come over to his studio, and we'd drink coffee and look at his paintings. And we could bring our paintings over there and we would have a critique of them. He'd tell you what to do, and so forth and so on. Well, there were those kinds of people around, many people like that, wonderful people. 

[00:30:05.36]

That's why—you see, my orientation—I never could have become a so-called Black nationalist, hate all white people, or nothing like that, because I know white people, and I know that there are white people and white people. There are good white people and there are rats, just like there are good Black people and there are rats. And in those days, I happened to have met some of the good ones. 

[00:30:28.57]

ANNA TYLER:  Now, when did you meet your long-time friend Sophie Wessel? 

[00:30:33.88]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I met Sophie during that period, around there somewhere. Because I first heard about Sophie, that she had been arrested down in downstate Illinois because she was getting petitions signed for some good cause, some good cause favorable to Black people or minorities. And she was a young student at the Art Institute at that time, I guess. And they were getting petitions signed for something downstate. Sophie will have to tell you all about that. 

[00:31:05.79]

And I just heard about this young white woman who'd been arrested for some cause that seemed to be in the interest of my people. So I took a real interest in that. And then later on, I had an opportunity to meet her, and I guess we've been friends ever since, almost—almost 50 years. But just the best of friends—the best of friends. She lives over there in Hyde Park. And she was the one that—when it was evident that the 57th Street Art Fair was discriminating against Black folks, Black artists, she went and got together and got a permit from the school people and the aldermen, and started the Community Art Fair right in the center of the Hyde Park Art Fair, where we minority artists had a chance to show our work and all. 

[00:31:59.19]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, one of the things—I don't know exactly what time Negro History Week became popular, but the two of you used to put together art exhibitions. 

[00:32:11.49]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  We sure did. 

[00:32:13.17]

ANNA TYLER:  And take them around. 

[00:32:15.96]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I have a wonderful picture of Sophie and I and a couple of white kids in one of those Jewish temples over there in Hyde Park, where we had a brotherhood exhibit. And I think I had exhibited pictures of Harriet Tubman and talked to these kids about Harriet Tubman. 

[00:32:43.33]

ANNA TYLER:  One of the things I noted in your correspondence was you also received letters from all over the world—Guam, South Africa, Si Gordon in France. And this is during World War II I'm talking about. It was the communication that kept you in touch with where the various artists were. They noted when Charles White came into the service, where Joe Kersey was over on Guam. 

[00:33:19.54]

Si Gordon also sent sketches to you of the various towns he was in France. And one of the letters mentioned—asked if you spoke French. He was going to send you some newspapers to read in French. How soon—and he also invited you to Paris. How soon after that did you make your first trip to Europe? 

[00:33:48.22]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, this correspondence was due to the fact that, during the war, since I was not able to work in a war plant and I wanted to do something for the war effort, so I thought perhaps the best thing I could do would be to correspond with the fellows. So I developed a newsletter called Life with Margaret. And it was mimeographed, and I would send it to—I would tell about what I was doing, and what was going on back home and quotations from various things and send it to them. 

[00:34:20.88]

Well, many of them—some of them were highly insulted at getting a mimeographed newsletter. But as I told them—I said it'll either be mimeographed or not at all. So they did accept it, and they would—these were all of the various replies and all that I got, which gave me a pretty good idea of what was happening in that war, particularly in relationship to how they were treated racially. 

[00:34:48.72]

And there were some very interesting stories that came out of that. Someday, I think, as you suggested, it might be interesting for those to be printed in a book, taking another look at World War II, racism in World War I. But when—well, I didn't I didn't get to Paris until many years after. That was what, 1944? 

[00:35:13.97]

ANNA TYLER:  Yes, 1944, '45. 

[00:35:14.72]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  1941, '51, '61. Oh, I guess it was—'65 I got there. About 25 years later, I did get to Paris. 

[00:35:27.15]

ANNA TYLER:  And you were able to—

[00:35:28.61]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I was able to see Paris, and see what it was and all. 

[00:35:33.05]

ANNA TYLER:  When you returned—when you went to—started going to the Art Institute to work on your master's, were there any teachers that you were really fond of and that were fond of you? And just what was your experience with—if so, will you give the names of these teachers and experiences? 

[00:35:55.70]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, I graduated from Chicago Normal College. It's now—then it became Chicago Teachers College; then it became Chicago State University; then the other part of it became Northeastern Illinois University—in 1937. And I think I worked about a year to try to save and some money at all. And then I think maybe I might have started at the Art Institute in '39 or '40. 

[00:36:27.43]

And because Teachers College gave you three years, so you had to go somewhere else to get that one year to get your degree. So since I was interested in art, and I had been taking art majors, I wanted to go to the Art Institute. Well, I had to go—I was—I had to do substitute teaching. And I usually got a deal where I would work in the mornings from eight until twelve, because they had a double shift then—crowded school. 

[00:37:02.08]

And then from one until four [P.M.], I would go to the Art Institute and then stop—break for something to eat. And then from—I guess it was from six to nine was the evening sessions. And I'd go to evening sessions. And I went summers, and I got my bachelor's in 1946. And see, it took me a longer time, because I was just going part time. And then in 1948, I got my master's in art education.

[00:37:40.76]

The teacher that left a great impression upon me—a couple of them, I guess, maybe two or three—Miss Kathleen Blackshear, who was the history of art teacher, and who was spoken of by some of the whites as a "nigger-lover" because she was a Southerner out of Texas, but she was very interested in encouraging to us Black students, including people like Charles Sebree and others. 

[00:38:16.20]

And she, I particularly revere because I was going through some very hard times, very hard times. And I remember the head of the art education department called me in and said, "I think you ought to drop out of school while you're not doing very well," and so forth and so on. So I said, "I can't do that." He said, "Well, you're behind in your tuition, and you're not doing your best work." 

[00:38:55.89]

So I was walking down the hall, and I met Miss Blackshear. She saw me with this woebegone expression on my face, and she asked me what was the problem. And I told her this person had tried to get me to drop out because I was behind on my tuition, and didn't have materials and all and so forth and so on. So she listened. 

[00:39:18.17]

Shortly thereafter, I received a note to come to the bursar's office, and came to the bursar's office, and they had a—the bursar told me, "Your tuition has been paid up for the rest of the year, and you will receive—for the rest of the semester, and you will receive an allotment of $25 a month for materials. And this is from an anonymous donor. I cannot tell you who it is, but if you may wish, you may write a letter of thanks, which I will see that the donor gets." Well, you know, I knew who had done that. I knew who had done that. And that was that lady, Mrs. Kathleen Blackshear. So that eased me quite a bit. So I was able to get back into the swing of things and to improve my grades. And I got my bachelor's. 

[00:40:18.79]

And then I—the head of the art education department called me, and she said, "You got your bachelor's." But she said, "There's still some credits left over from Chicago Teachers College that you have. And if you will go on straight to working toward your master's, I will fix your record so that you get credit for these credits." So I said okay, so I was able to continue. I think the way it was, I probably was working in the morning and going to school in the afternoons again. And so in '48, I got my master's. 

[00:40:57.97]

Among the people that I met there as teachers who were very—I was impressed with Ethel Spears, a close friend of Miss Blackshear's, who was a printmaking teacher, I think. I forget what she taught—lithography, so silkscreen or something like that. But a very sensitive person and very encouraging. Mr. Shaker—we used to go out with him to do landscapes, watercolors and all. Very decent person. And several others. They were very good people there for the most part, who took a real serious interest in you. They didn't see Black; they didn't see white. They saw human beings. They saw young artists. 

[00:41:50.40]

I would say that I'm really glad that I didn't accept that scholarship to Howard University that I was given in high school, because I might have grown up to be a different person. But going to the Art Institute where we had the racial mix, the ethnic mix—we were all together. The only important thing that people looked at about you was your work and what you expressed. And I think it developed me into a—well, a world person, that love developed my whole attitude toward people and humanity. 

[This concludes the first session of an oral history interview with Margaret Taylor Goss Burroughs on November 11, 1988. –Ed.] 

[END OF TRACK AAA_burrou88_2871_m]

[00:00:02.41]

ANNA TYLER:  [Today is December 5, 1988 –Ed.] This is a continuation of an oral history interview with Margaret Taylor Goss Burroughs at her home and studio, 3806 South Michigan Avenue, Chicago, Illinois. I am Anna Tyler, interviewer for the Chicago Oral History Project, sponsored by the Archives of American Art. Margaret, may we begin with your enrollment as a senior citizen at the School of the Art Institute, please?

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

[00:00:34.57]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  For some time I had been thinking about coming back to—going back to school, and particularly at the Art Institute, to work in the printmaking department, because I did not have the necessary equipment, like presses and all. And I did want to make some more lithographs and etchings and silkscreen prints. So I finally got my courage up and decided, as a senior citizen, to go down to the Art Institute and to enroll. 

[00:01:09.25]

I went to the admissions office and told them that I would like to enroll. and they asked me my status. And I said I was a former student, had graduated. I was an alumna. So the young man who was about 25 years old looked at me and he said, "Then when did you attend here? When did you graduate from here?" I said, "I graduated from this school in 1948," and he had a great expression of surprise on his face. And he said, "Whew!" He said, "That was before I was born." 

[00:01:45.19]

So anyhow, I entered the class, and at first I felt very timid in the class because I was surrounded by all these young people wearing these strange looking clothes and these strange looking hairdos. Some of them had purple hair, some of them had yellow hair. Not naturally blonde yellow hair, but yellow, yellow hair. Cadmium yellow hair, shall we say. Others had fuchsia hair, and they just looked terrible. Terrible. 

[00:02:21.59]

And I wondered to myself, how long could I stand looking at that? I'd go into the cafeteria to get a cup of coffee and there was all these strange looking people—and these were the white ones. And then the Black ones were just as strange because they had discovered the Rastafarian look, and they had these add-ons of this yarn, and some of the boys had earrings, dangles, and they had this hair. Unkempt, dirty looking stuff, just going all the way down their back. 

[00:02:59.40]

And this reggae hairdo is hair that you're not supposed to comb it. You just let it grow like it grows. If it picks up some lint, it keeps the lint and all. So, you know, really, I said, gee whiz, I can't—I really don't know how long I can stand this. But I did stand it long enough to go two summers—or no, two semesters, and to work in the classes. And I just sort of shut my eyes to all these things, because apparently I had forgotten when I was a student at the Art Institute. 

[00:03:29.56]

And they had two cafeterias. There was a cafeteria for the public, which was a very nice dining room, restaurant. And then there was one for us, the students. And our cafeteria was under the steps, way under the steps of the Art Institute, and we would go through there. They didn't allow us to be in the proper dining room. And we would have on our smocks just full of paint. There was so much paint on the smocks that they would stand up. 

[00:04:03.31]

We would wear these jeans, and we'd wipe our paint on the legs of the jean, the oil paint, and it would dry. And so the jeans got so they could stand up. And then we had forgotten all the kind of crazy getups that we wore in those days, because in those days, of course, back in the '40s, if you wore your hair natural, boy, you were really a sight to look at, a sight to behold. So I suppose I must have looked just as strange to people at that time as these present-day students look to me. 

[00:04:35.75]

ANNA TYLER:  And by today's standards, those jeans were canvases. 

[00:04:39.69]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Oh, yeah. [Laughs.] That's right. I imagine now they're using them, they're framing them, and calling them soft sculpture, or three-dimensional sculpture, because they just stand them up. They nail them on to a base and call it a three-dimensional sculpture. Well, that was about—when I first started in the class, that is—this was an etching class. I was very timid, because it takes you a little time to sort of work into things, especially with all these bright young students in their twenties and thirties who were just going about their work so assuredly. 

[00:05:20.66]

So I felt really very inferior to them, and very timid. You know? I imagine you might say, "Well, is it possible for you to feel that way?" So in the etching class, I'd worked on my plates, and we had criticisms. It was time for class crit. And so we all sat around this big table, work table, and we'd put our metal plates upon—they were copper plates. Also we were working with zinc plates, too—on the table. So the professor, who was about 26 years old, he looked around, and looked over things. 

[00:06:01.19]

Then all of a sudden his eyes lit upon mine and he picked it up and he said, "Whose is this? Whose is this?" So I was feeling, my God, what have I done wrong now? And I held up my hand very slowly. He said, "Oh, Margaret." He said, "Now look, class." And he held it up and said, "This is what I've been trying to get into your heads all the time. You see the way she's approached these lines and so forth and so on? And this is what I want you to get. This is the way I want you to approach this—approach to making an etching." 

[00:06:34.87]

So I began to get a smile on my face, and all of these young students began looking at me. And pretty soon, later on, they come looking over my shoulder. They wanted to all speak to me and be my friend and try to learn what I knew. But anyhow, from that point on, I went along very well. I did about 20 lithographs, 20 etchings, 20 silkscreens. And the thing is that I was in the class merely to use the presses and the facilities, and I sort of made it very clear to the professor that I was not—I did not want people worrying me about my subject matter. 

[00:07:18.38]

I wanted to do whatever subject matter I felt like doing. And so the professors didn't bother me. They just let me work. And so as a result, I have quite a supply of new etchings, new prints, which I'm quite satisfied with. And I hope to get back, but I'm not going to go back to the Art Institute. I'm going to go—again, I'm going to go to City College because I understand that Harold Washington College, that they have a good print shop and a good teacher there. It'll only cost you about $50 or so a semester, and so that's all I want to do is to use the presses to make some new prints from time to time. 

[00:08:01.27]

ANNA TYLER:  Didn't you have a show after at the Southside Community Arts Center? A big show of your new works [in 1987 –Ed.]? 

[00:08:08.47]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I had a show of my prints at the Ward Gallery at the University of Illinois. 

[00:08:15.45]

ANNA TYLER:  Oh, okay. 

[00:08:17.12]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  At the Circle, which was quite successful and looked very good. 

[00:08:23.60]

ANNA TYLER:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Now, you have been not only—your role has been more than just being a visual artist. And in the 1940s, you had your first publication published by Viking Press? 

[00:08:39.41]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yeah. Well, children's books. 

[00:08:41.22]

ANNA TYLER:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 

[00:08:43.58]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, you know, prior to that time there were very few Black writers or authors of children's books. I took a course under Charlemae Rollins at Roosevelt University in children's literature, and that got me interested in children's writing. And so I happened to have written a book called Jasper, the Drummin' Boy for children. I was teaching. And this story was based on a little boy that I had in class who was always drumming on the desk, and drumming on the floor, and drumming with everything and so forth and so on. 

[00:09:28.79]

So I made a story of it and Ms. Charlemae Rollins read it and she sent it to Viking Press, to Mae Massey, who was the children's editor at that time. A very sympathetic lady. And it was accepted for publication. I think it was one of the first times that a person—a first manuscript by a new writer was just accepted immediately. And so Jasper—that was in 1947 that Jasper was published. And so I kept up an interest in children's writing. Incidentally, the first edition of Jasper, I illustrated. 

[00:10:13.31]

So anybody who has a copy of that book, the first edition, that's a collector's item. And then a few years later, I guess in the '70s, Follett Publishing Company contacted me. By this time, Jasper had gone out of print with the Viking Press, and they returned my copyright to me. And so Follett Publishing Company asked if they could republish it. So they did. Also, I had done, under Mrs. Rollins's inspiration, too, a book called Did You Feed My Cow?—a book of children's nursery rhymes and games from city streets and country lanes. 

[00:11:08.33]

And that was inspired by Charlemae Rollins, who really should get a lot of credit for inspiring a lot of young writers and artists, because she was the children's librarian at the Hall Branch Library. And so when we would come in there, she took an interest in us. She was very inspiring to Gwendolyn Brooks and Margaret Danner and others. And that book came out by Crowell Company, which was a New York company. 

[00:11:43.23]

It went out of copyright, and so then Follett Publishing Company picked up both, and they brought out Jasper, the Drummin' Boy again, and they also brought out Did You Feed My Cow? And Did You Feed My Cow? became very popular because Head Start had started. With that book, a nursery school teacher or Head Start teacher could take that book, and that book would comprise her curriculum for the whole semester, things of rhymes and games that she would teach the children. So—

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

[00:12:39.55]

ANNA TYLER:  In the '50s, you'd made a decision to go to Mexico. How did that come about? Will you tell us about your stay there? 

[00:12:50.62]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, one had always been hearing about Mexico and what a colorful place it was, particularly when you'd see the paintings and the arts and crafts that'd be brought back from Mexico. So—

[00:13:04.60]

ANNA TYLER:  Surely much—

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

[00:13:07.36]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Seeing all these colorful things and seeing all these beautiful posters, travel posters about Mexico and talking with people who had been there, I decided that maybe I should—being an artist, I should like to visit Mexico. So Charlie and I saved up our money, and in about 1952, I asked for sabbatical leave from teaching because of the fact that there were an awful lot of pressures. That was during the McCarthy period, and there were a lot of pressures against anybody who was the least bit militant. 

[00:13:49.81]

They claimed that you were a communist and they were trying to take your job away from you and so forth and so on. So I asked for this sabbatical leave and got it for 1952, and we got in an old 1947 Chevrolet, and took Gayle, who was about nine years old at that time, and my nephew, Adrian, who was about thirteen, and took off for Mexico to spend a sabbatical year in Mexico. When you have a sabbatical, the school pays you one third of your salary. 

[00:14:30.80]

They hire a substitute to fill your place, and then they pay the substitute's salary, then whatever is left you get. However, that one-third was sufficient to take care of one in Mexico. Might not have been sufficient to take care of you in Chicago. And so we went down there and we—that's where we—I had known Elizabeth Catlett before that; Elizabeth Catlett Mora. And so we contacted her and she helped us to find an apartment. We found an apartment in a building with practically all Mexicans. 

[00:15:15.60]

I think John Wilson lived in that same building. And this is how we really helped to develop our understanding and speaking ability of the Spanish language, because there was hardly anybody in there—you had to talk Spanish or you couldn't talk at all. And then I enrolled in the Esmeralda Art School for part of the time, because my contract for the sabbatical was that I would study art for a semester, and then the second semester I would travel and do sightseeing. And I had to send in a report every month about what I had done, and so forth. 

[00:16:01.64]

ANNA TYLER:  Is that when you were working with Taller de Grafica? 

[00:16:05.49]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yeah. And then at the same time, we Elizabeth helped us—helped me to sign up to become a visiting member of the Taller de Grafica Popular, which Charles White and she had worked at previously. And there I did lithographs and stuff like that, and linoleum blocks. I learned a lot. I met a number of artists there, had an opportunity to visit Siqueiros at his home. I don't think we met Rivera because I believe Rivera had passed by that time. 

[00:16:45.16]

But we had an opportunity to see all the great Mexican murals and artwork, visited the museums, and all. And had just a wonderful year, the best year of my life. Met people like Harold Winslow, and many others. And the year there sort of strengthened me in more ways than one, not only artistically, but morally and intellectually, so that when I came back to Chicago, I was in a fighting mood, and I decided to fight the reaction that was trying to run me out of my job as a teacher in the Chicago Public Schools. 

[00:17:33.44]

So I came back determined to fight anything like that and to continue in the way that I was doing. Well, it seemed that I didn't have—nobody bothered me. I didn't have any problems. Nobody ever called me in for questioning or anything else, or threatening me again. And so I was able to go back to teaching and was able to teach at DuSable High School, teach art, until I decided I would like to leave. And I left because I was called to teach at a college, a community college, Kennedy-King College, at a higher salary and as a professor. 

[00:18:21.16]

And that was how I left. Of course, I stayed at Kennedy-King College ten years, until I decided to retire from teaching [in 1979 –Ed.]. And of course, you must remember that all the time I was directing the DuSable Museum of African-American History from 1961 until 1985, when I became emeritus from the DuSable Museum because Mayor Washington appointed me to be a commissioner on the Chicago Park Board. 

[00:18:53.20]

And since the museum got a small amount of money from the state, it would be considered a conflict of interest, so I chose to become emeritus and be the commissioner because I felt being a commissioner, I could be of more service to the DuSable Museum than as the director of the DuSable Museum, because the Park Board is the overall landlord of all of the museums that exist on park land. And whatever they want to do or whatever they want to get, the commissioners have to give the okay. I think that based on my service for the past couple of years, that I made a correct decision. 

[00:19:37.94]

Even though despite the fact that [in my opinion –Ed.] under the present leadership at the DuSable Museum, […] that the museum has suffered. But I do hope that something will happen very soon to remove that lady out of there so that we will not have to suffer through her mismanagement. And I hope that the museum will not have been brought down so low that it cannot be pulled up again to the standards that we used to have it on, a very high standard of being a research institution, a serious historical research institution, rather than just a background for parties, teas, and receptions. 

[00:20:27.14]

ANNA TYLER:  Aside from—you've been involved in the founding of several other organizations. One of them is the NCA, which was in the 1950s. 

[00:20:40.31]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  1959. Yeah, the NCA. 

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

NCA, National Conference of Artists—that came about—I wasn't the only one involved in that. I think Marion Perkins was and Bernard Goss was. And I think we were—each year we would receive this invitation from Atlanta University to come to the opening of the Atlanta show. Not only did we receive the invitation to come to the opening, but we would always receive an invitation to the prospectus to participate in it. And many of us had. 

[00:21:27.64]

Well, one time we got it and I was talking to Marion Perkins. [Audio briefly cuts out.] Why don't we go down to Atlanta and see that show? So Marion said okay. So we got together, put our heads together, Bernard Goss and Marion and I. So then we said, well, why don't we—well, why don't we invite some other artists to meet us there? Invite some Chicago artists to go with us, and then we'll send some letters to other artists throughout the country who had been in the show to meet us there. 

[00:22:01.63]

And so we did. And we wrote to Dr. Clement, the president of Atlanta University, told him what we wanted to do, and we asked him if he could please send us a mailing list of names and addresses of some of the artists who participated in the show. So he did. And we sent out this letter at our own expense, and we said, meet us in Atlanta. Meet us in Atlanta. And so when we got to Atlanta, some 75 Black artists throughout the country had come to Atlanta to meet with us. 

[00:22:37.88]

So we had a good time meeting each other. We would drink—go to the tavern and drink beer together and everything. It was just wonderful just to meet each other, meet your fellow artists, you know? And so then Dr. Clement provided us with a place to meet. He said we could if we wanted to have a meeting, we can have a meeting. So we called a meeting, and we decided that we would form an organization called the National Conference of Negro Artists to meet once a year. 

[00:23:15.90]

The purpose is to encourage the Black artists in every way to exhibit his work, to sell his work, and all. And Allan Junier, James Parks, Jack Jordan, and others came together. And so we formed a committee, and I think I was the first chairman. And I forget who the officers were at that time, but we have that—that is all recorded. And we said we would meet again the following year at about Easter time. 

[00:24:05.89]

We usually met about Easter time, because people were usually off at that time. We would meet on Black college campuses because the Black colleges gave us an opportunity to stay in the dormitories, so it was inexpensive and all. And in the earlier days here from Chicago, we would bring a busload of kids, high school seniors who were art majors. And I'm happy to say that all of those—one time we brought a group to Washington, a busload of kids to Washington. Included in that group was Marion Perkins's granddaughter, Marian Perkins, and Larry Daley. Larry Daley was—the kids stayed on the campus in the dormitories and all, like we did. 

[00:24:59.68]

They got a chance—while we were having our meetings they were exploring the campus, exploring the campus with the other students and all. Though all of those kids came back, finished high school, went to college, some of them majored in art. Marion Perkins' granddaughter Marian studied law, went and finished law school. In fact, she went back to Howard University to law school and finished from there. Larry Perkins went to the Art Institute. He finished. He's a well-known artist and designer, and all of the others. So that was a great encouragement to them. 

[00:25:37.95]

ANNA TYLER:  So this organization was not only an umbrella for the adult artists, but a motivator—a source of motivation for the youth. 

[00:25:46.84]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Oh, yeah. Absolutely, because we had the youth chapter that was headed by Virginia Kiah. 

[00:25:52.83]

ANNA TYLER:  Oh, yeah. 

[00:25:53.47]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  And Virginia raised money throughout the country so that each year we would present so many scholarships to high school seniors, artists, so they could go to college and major in art. So I'm very happy to say that that organization is still going on. 

[00:26:17.81]

ANNA TYLER:  And in 1989, it will be in existence for 30 years. 

[00:26:22.73]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yes. And we're going to meet—I think they're going to meet in California, in LA, for the next meeting. We had our 29th meeting. Every third year, we have a meeting in an international spot. So as you remember that last year we met in Brazil. 

[00:26:46.51]

ANNA TYLER:  Yes. 

[00:26:46.69]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  That was really a wonderful experience. A wonderful experience. And in previous years they met in Dakar, Senegal. I don't know where they say they're going to meet. It may be somewhere in the Caribbean. I think they're going to meet in the Caribbean at the next international meeting. 

[00:27:05.54]

But that was a lot of fun, and that expanded it because we get a chance to meet other Black artists of other countries. So I'm really very proud of that organization that Marion and Bernard and I helped to bring into being, and the fact that the young artists have taken it and carried it on through. We've had people like Parks, we've had Jimmy—what was his name? 

[00:27:33.71]

ANNA TYLER:  Mosley? 

[00:27:34.06]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Jimmy Moseley of blessed memory. Eugenia Dunn. Many people who've come through there and who've worked with it and who need to be remembered. 

[00:27:46.36]

ANNA TYLER:  And there was a print portfolio produced by that organization, which I'm sure is a collector's item now. 

[00:27:52.28]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yes. The first print portfolio—I was sort of inspired by Charles White's print portfolios that came out, which were some of the first that I had seen. I think his was the first I had seen, ever seen, and perhaps yourself, too. And so I said, well, we'll get together. So we figured it out and brought out a portfolio of prints. And anybody who owns any one of those print portfolios brought out by NCA, that's a collector's item too. I don't think I even have one left at this point. 

[00:28:28.30]

Later on, Eugenia Dunn brought out her own, and then that started all the artists—many of the artists are bringing out portfolios, or if not portfolios, they started bringing out single prints, taking their prints and having them reproduced, and selling them and so forth. 

[00:28:45.67]

ANNA TYLER:  There's a local organization that you have been involved in recently, and that's AVAR. Can you tell us? 

[00:28:55.58]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Really maybe not too much that I can tell you about AVAR. I think it's called African—Let's see. African American Visual Artists Association. And that is an organization, really sort of like a chapter, a wing of NCA, whose main purpose is to encourage the development of Black artists and to help promote their work, sell their work, bring their work to the attention of the public, and to do things together. Because we figure that together, you're stronger. 

[00:30:05.15]

ANNA TYLER:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Okay. 

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

[00:30:05.30]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I've been busy, haven't I? 

[00:30:07.25]

ANNA TYLER:  Right. But there's another organization or outreach that you began was the Lake Meadows Art Fair. 

[00:30:17.52]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yeah, I guess I'm just an organizer. You know? I got to be organizing something, one thing or the other. But, you see—

[00:30:28.77]

ANNA TYLER:  It's always done at a timely time. 

[00:30:31.02]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I think that the Lake Meadows Art Fair developed like this. At the South Side Community Arts Center, which was—the main backbone was the artist. And then after a time, the Black bourgeoisie, the Black society people came in and they thought this was so interesting, so they just practically took over and they kicked us out. They kicked the artists out. So we were on the outside. And I said, well, my philosophy has always been never to look back, but to just keep on moving forward. 

[00:31:12.72]

So I said, well, now we're going to do something that will put the Art Center into the background. And so we're going to—they were just building it. It just opened up this new shopping center at 35th and King Drive. So I went over there and got an appointment with whoever it was supposed to be, and waited in the outer office until I got a chance to talk. Went in there and said, sir—I forget his name. "We think that if you had an art fair here, an art activity, it could do a lot to popularize your shopping center quite a bit." 

[00:31:55.86]

I think I was talking to the head of the Merchants Association or somebody. And they said, "Well, interesting. Well, who could do this?" "We can do this. We've had experience at organizing these things." Never had any. Not one day's experience. Only thing that we had done was observe how they organized 57th Street art fairs. [Laughs.] So I said, "Well, yes, we can do this, and this would be very good." So they said, "Well, okay" 

[00:32:25.52]

All right. I think we made some kind of financial arrangements, because I have to pay my helpers and people to check the things and so forth and so on, the registrars, and so forth and so on. I think we got maybe a budget of about $1,000 to do the first one, which meant I made about $200 being the coordinator of it. And we set it up. We were afraid that nobody would show up. But about 50 or 60 artists did show up. And from that point on—that was in 1959. 

[00:33:07.56]

And from that point on, every year, it would grow and we sort of got the pattern of it. Pretty soon things like that become—they give themselves, because everybody knows what time it is and when it comes up, and they send in their things and they're there or so forth. And so it became institutionalized. At some point there, I don't remember exactly when, but the head of the Businessmen's Association was a woman that owned that beauty parlor. Chez—

[00:33:42.54]

ANNA TYLER:  Chez Paul? 

[00:33:43.56]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Chez Pompadour.

[00:33:46.12]

ANNA TYLER:  That was it. 

[00:33:47.88]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  And she figured that this thing just happened of itself and it was very easy to do. And so she took it out of our hands, the people that worked with me. I had this committee that worked with me. Everybody got paid a stipend for whatever they did. I think you helped me at one time. And so she tried to do it, and from that point—she figured they could do it without paying anybody anything. Well, from that point on, it began to deteriorate. 

[00:34:15.28]

So right now, at this point, it's just more or less like a flea market, because there is no standards. People come out with all kinds of handmade—machine made objects and articles selling anything from soup to nuts, you know? And at least we had tried to keep it on a high level. I'm very proud to say that a number of fine artists came out of that art fair. Gerald Sanders. I have pictures of some of our people who won prizes. And there was one little boy—Anna, you may not remember him—At the first art fair. His name was Walter Arnold. 

[00:34:53.82]

ANNA TYLER:  Yes. [Cross talk.] Russ Arnold's son. 

[00:34:54.45]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  His father was Russ Arnold, the Hyde Park photographer. That little boy was seven years old. He won the first prize at the Lake Meadows Art Fair, which was a big package of art materials. He is now one of your outstanding, nationally-known stone carvers and sculptors who went over, studied in Italy, who did the repairs on the Tribune Building—you know, of the gargoyles and all—who's worked on the National Cathedral in Washington, and who remembers and has appreciation for the fact that these Black people, these Black artists, having this little art fair out there, gave him his first start. And he told me—he had me up to his studio, and he told me that he still has some of those materials that he got, and he appreciates it very much. 

[00:36:00.41]

ANNA TYLER:  Wonderful. Because, you know, I was in charge of the children for a couple of years. 

[00:36:04.74]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  That makes you feel really very good, you know? 

[00:36:07.80]

ANNA TYLER:  And I never heard this story. I knew about Russ. [Cross talk.]

[00:36:12.48]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  And he did the—he did the bust of Harold Washington, which is in the Social Security building over there. A beautiful thing. A beautiful—it's not a full thing in the round, but it's—but you know—You know what it—

[00:36:30.90]

ANNA TYLER:  Yeah. 

[00:36:34.47]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  A beautiful, beautiful thing. And he's very, very appreciative. And so I told him that I had here the mallet of Marion Perkins, which I've—at the time I saw him, I couldn't find it, but now I've found it. I want to give it to him to carry on the tradition. But I'm very proud of him and many others who came out of that art fair. I guess, Ben Bey. Many of the artists who achieved any prominence came out of that Lake Meadows Art Fair. 

[00:37:09.33]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, one thing about you, Margaret, you know, you've always given the artists exposure and opportunity. And I think that's what's so extremely important in our culture. 

[00:37:23.07]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Now, there's something else that I'm starting now, which I guess you know—you're aware of it, that three years ago I organized the Culture Fund. And the whole purpose of the Culture Fund is to encourage young artists. And we're starting from grammar school, high school, and college. And our grammar school kids, this will be our third year, I guess, on January 26, which is a Thursday. I usually do it the last Thursday in January, and we have our awards ceremony in the form of a potluck supper. 

[00:37:59.43]

And we're going to give—we give our grammar school kids gift certificates, $25, at an art store where they get their art materials. High school, $50. We gave high school $50. We gave college $100. And then two or three select college students, we gave $200 to. Now, this year we're raising that, and our grammar school kids are going to get $50; our high school kids are going—there's ten of each. Ten. We give ten of each. Our high school will get $100. Our junior college will get $125. Our senior college will get $150. And then Art Institute students will get $150. 

[00:38:52.56]

And I feel that in that way we will encourage the development of artists, because if you or I had—Al, had had a little money to buy some art materials, some brushes, some red sable brushes or something like that when we were in school, we might have been very much better artists. But you know, a tube of paint costs so much. The reason why so many of us are more proficient in watercolor is because it was the cheapest thing we could get. Oils, we could not afford. Canvas, stretchers, all that kind of stuff. So that's why I decided to start this. 

[00:39:34.12]

And many of the things that I sell from my collections, that money goes into this Culture Fund to give it away to the artists each year. And I tried to give—we're going to give $5,000 away all together. I tried to give—whatever I have in the account, I try to give half of it. So we still have some left and then we build on that during the year to ask for contributions, or we sell our booklets and so forth. So that is the Culture Fund. 

[00:40:05.04]

ANNA TYLER:  Okay. Well, in the early '60s, when we as Black Americans were getting ready to celebrate our emancipation, you also were involved in organizing another organization or project, and that is the support from the state of Illinois for the celebration of the Emancipation Centennial. 

[00:40:33.99]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, that was 1963. And of course, you remember the museum opened in 1961. So there was this state commission that was set up to observe—make proper observance of this. So the commission met, and they were receiving proposals from people who had any ideas of how to do it. And so we decided—not knowing too much about the proposals, but we decided to write up a proposal. 

[00:41:11.62]

And so we wrote up this proposal in a way that would involve artists—Black artists, to get some of this money, because we were afraid that somebody would come along with some company and put up a commercial exhibit of blown-up photographs or something or other. Then when it was over, it'd be over, and the pictures would be destroyed and there would be nothing left. We proposed to have, say, about 50 artists to create 100 paintings of great moments in the lives of Black people in Chicago and in Illinois. 

[00:41:52.15]

You see, because this was the Illinois Commission. We put the emphasis on Chicago and Illinois, and particularly on Abraham Lincoln. So we figured out various topics to be painted on. So we presented this. The only thing wrong, I didn't ask for enough money, because I think I asked for—I think I asked for $30,000. They gave me $15,000. So then I had to take the $15,000 and make do with the $15,000. I think at that time we paid our artists, what, $100 a painting? 

[00:42:27.73]

ANNA TYLER:  It was $125 a painting. 

[00:42:29.75]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  $125 a painting, which was a lot of money in those days. But we also paid for the canvas and the paints and all that, and the framing out of that. I think out of it, I made about, honorarium, about $2,000. But we did get it, because nobody else appeared to put in a bid for anything. You know? So since we were the only ones putting in the bid, we got to the commission. 

[00:42:59.69]

And the artists were working and all, and we didn't really get the full recognition for the job, because the state of Illinois Exhibit was held at the McCormick—that exhibit was a part of the whole exposition, which was at McCormick Place, the first McCormick Place that didn't burn. And these people who put on—who were over all over the exposition, they were crooks who were just trying to give—they got control of it to see how much money they could drain out of it. They were just going to put on a minimum exhibit. See? 

[00:43:38.19]

And they had a lot of photographs and stuff like that, and they didn't put any money into it because they were putting the most of the money in their pocket. Well, then these paintings then belonged to the state of Illinois, and it was really the best thing they had at that exposition were these paintings by these various Black artists, including our honorary Black artist, Sophie Wessel. And it was a fine series of paintings. I think I was quite proud of them. And I think you had one in there, and Al [Tyler –Ed.] had one or two or—

[00:44:12.68]

ANNA TYLER:  Al had several. I think it was three, but—

[00:44:15.71]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  So the exposition was held. The paintings then traveled in various places in the state. And then I found that they were put in storage down in Bloomington, Illinois. 

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

[00:44:30.39]

ANNA TYLER:  Okay. This is the conclusion of side one of tape number two, a conversation with Margaret Taylor Goss Burroughs. 

[END OF TRACK AAA_burrou88_2872_m]

[00:00:03.35]

ANNA TYLER:  Continuation of an interview with Margaret Taylor Goss Burroughs, side 2 of tape 2. 

[00:00:18.75]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  They were in Bloomington, Illinois. Now, the museum started in 1961. This [Emancipation –Ed.] Exposition was held in '63. And I remembered that these paintings were still [in Bloomington –Ed.], and they were very fine paintings. And so I kept worrying the people who were in charge of them, the man who was head of the state library that was under his jurisdiction at the time, about the possibility of lending these paintings to the DuSable Museum. 

[00:00:56.85]

And so Mr. Corneal Davis, who I must call and go interview myself sometime—he was a state senator at the time. So he became active in it. And finally, they were able to get the State of Illinois—the State Museum in Illinois picked out twelve of the paintings, which they kept because they fit into what they were doing there in their museum. And so there were the other 46 or whatever it is left, so many left. And so then they transferred the rest of the paintings to the DuSable Museum of African American History in Chicago on a 99-year loan, see. 

[00:01:38.45]

ANNA TYLER:  Oh, okay. 

[00:01:39.25]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  And so that's how we have the rest of them, which we exhibit time from time as a group. So that's how that project developed. 

[00:01:48.76]

ANNA TYLER:  So in other words, many of these artists are in the permanent collection—

[00:01:53.02]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yeah. In the permanent collection—

[00:01:53.53]

ANNA TYLER:  —of the DuSable Museum. 

[00:01:54.25]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  —of DuSable Museum. 

[00:01:59.76]

ANNA TYLER:  You have to start over. Oh, I forgot what I had said. 

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

[00:02:06.79]

[In progress]—about your first large—your exposure, you know, on a larger scale, outside of the community, the Chicago community, is one place that you exhibited was Atlanta University, the Atlanta show. You won first prize there, I think, in 1955. 

[00:02:27.91]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Yeah, 1955. I won first prize in watercolor. It was a purchase award at the Atlanta show. And that is in their collection now. I forget really now what the subject matter of it was. And then in 1962, after we had organized the NCA, this was—they were meeting at Lincoln University. I received an award, the Hallmark Prize, for the best artwork, for the "best in show." And I think that was—best in show, that was for a piece of sculpture, incidentally. And I can't remember what the sculpture was, but I still have the award. It was a beautiful crystal glass plate put out by the Hallmark people. 

[00:03:29.51]

I had my work shown at International House in Leipzig, Germany. And then I had an exhibition of my work at Friendship House in Moscow, USSR, in 1967. Most recently, I had—not that I didn't have other outstanding exhibits, because I know that in 1982, my work was shown at the Evans-Tibbs Collection. And in 1980, in connection with the NCA meeting in Washington, D.C., my work, along with ten other black artists, was shown at the Corcoran Gallery in Washington, D.C., which is one of the most prestigious galleries. 

[00:04:25.49]

Most recently, I was honored by being in a group show, and honored as among five outstanding women artists—I was the only Black one—at the Women's Art Caucus honorary exhibition at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, Texas. And so that, you know, makes me feel very good. And I'm continually trying to exhibit.

[00:05:00.76]

I tell you one thing. I have been invited to many shows, but I refuse to submit any slides to any juries. If I'm going to exhibit, they will have to invite me to exhibit, and I will be the one who selects what I want to exhibit. I am not going to be judged by anybody. Many times, these people are my inferiors. They have not had the experience I've had or the education I have, and they set themselves up as jurors and they don't know what I'm trying to do.

[00:05:35.45]

So that is one reason why I have not been in a lot of other shows, like the show that they have, Atlanta Life Insurance Company, which I helped to set up. I was one of the founding members of that show. It's in about its third or fourth year now. But they require people to submit slides, and I refuse to be—submit any slides. That's a principal position that I've taken, because I think I have paid my dues and I should be able to state what I feel is my best work. 

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

[00:06:18.08]

ANNA TYLER:  You were also honored as one of eight outstanding Black women to encourage others in the field of art. [That was in 1983 in Hartford at the CRT's Crafter Gallery. –Ed.] […] Elizabeth Catlett and yourself—

[00:06:44.39]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, but I don't know whether—that was not specifically women, I don't think. That included men and women artists, because I think—particularly I remember that William Artis, the sculptor, was included in that. And that was at an NCA meeting also, which shows that the NCA has been carrying out its purpose through the years. You probably want to know what did I see in the future for the next ten years? [Laughs.]

[00:07:11.88]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, I was going to ask you, what do you see in the future for the next ten years, and also give a note of encouragement to the young aspiring artists. 

[00:07:23.67]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  I intend to try and stay healthy, you know, and try to stay here a while. And all I can say is to keep doing what I'm doing. Keep—you see, I believe very seriously in this song. It's the song that says, "If I can help somebody as I pass along, if I can help somebody with a word or a song, then my living shall not be in vain." And so that is really part of my theory. And I think that's what keeps me going. And I think that people should work creatively in every way until they drop, you know, until you just stop. Until the mechanism stops working. 

[00:08:06.22]

ANNA TYLER:  Working 'til you drop. 

[00:08:07.18]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  See? Until the old car stops dead in its track. But you know, you go with your boots on. And you want me to read this poem? 

[00:08:17.11]

ANNA TYLER:  Well, yes, I—you know, your creativity is just in every area of the arts. You embrace all aspects.

[00:08:23.80]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, you know why? That's because I believe that an artist, a creative person, should be able to work in any material, any medium. If you write poetry, words are your medium. If you act, actions and diction is your medium. If you dance, movement is your medium, if you're painting, all the mediums like watercolor, oil, so forth, so if you're an artist. Sculpture, you should be able to work in first dimension, two dimensions, three dimensions, so forth. So that I think that all creative people should be renaissance people, you know, like Leonardo. 

[00:09:04.28]

You see, Leonardo was that way. Leonardo not only painted; he wrote, he danced, he sang, he sculpt, he did everything. And that's the way I think artists should be. And that's why I think that artists—you say a word for the young artists coming up—that artists should be versatile. You should not just be saying, well, what do you do? "Well, I do scratchboard." "What else do you do?" "I don't do anything else. I do scratchboard." [Laughs.] It's utterly ridiculous. You should be able to do all those things, if you're going to cope with this society. 

[00:09:35.15]

ANNA TYLER:  So you've also done acting. 

[00:09:40.94]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Well, I've tread the boards a little in my time. 

[00:09:43.64]

ANNA TYLER:  Yeah. And were you with the Skyloft Players or just—was it a different acting group? 

[00:09:50.00]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  No, not Skyloft. We were with a group called the Negro People's Theatre, which was one of the first theater groups around here. This was back in the '40s and '50s. And we used to put on plays up at 51st Street, that community center up there, which later—

[00:10:12.76]

ANNA TYLER:  Oh yeah, the Parkway Community House. 

[00:10:13.90]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  Parkway, which later was born the Skyloft Players up there. A group, the Negro People's Art Theatre, started out at the Southside Art Center. And then we acted at—we were Negro People's Theatre under Fannie McConnell, and we acted—and Billy Nix was in that. We acted down at Abraham Lincoln Center, which is now Center for Inner City Studies of Northeastern Illinois University. So anyhow. But it's all connected. 

[00:10:48.73]

ANNA TYLER:  All right, then. Well, what I would like to do is close with your reading "What Shall I Tell My Children Who Are Black?" 

[00:10:55.37]

MARGARET TAYLOR-BURROUGHS:  This is a poem that I wrote, and I wrote it in 1963 as an anniversary poem of the Emancipation Proclamation, issuance of—the centennial of the Emancipation Proclamation. And it has been going around the world, I mean, since 1963, 1973, 1983, and it's going into 1993, and it's still going around the world and people are still writing for it, calling for it. Just today, I addressed a letter to a young man at Columbia, Missouri, University of Missouri at Columbia, saying, I'm doing a play. I'm in a theater department, and I'm putting this together and I would like permission to use "What Shall I Tell My Children Who Are Black?" 

[00:11:46.92]

And I wrote him a letter saying, "Go right ahead, use it. Just be sure to say who wrote it." So here it is. And the reason why it was written was to remind Black parents of their responsibility in passing on our heritage to our children, not leaving it to the schools or anybody else out there, but yours is the first responsibility. 

[00:12:12.21]

[Reading]

What shall I tell my children who are black

Of what it means to be a captive in this dark skin

What shall I tell my dear one, fruit of my womb, 

Of how beautiful they are when everywhere they turn

They are faced with abhorrence of everything that is black. 

Villains are black with black hearts. 

A black cow gives no milk. A black hen lays no eggs.

Bad news comes bordered in black, black is evil

And evil is black and devils' food is black…

What shall I tell my dear ones raised in a white world

A place where white has been made to represent

All that is good and pure and fine and decent.

Where clouds are white, and dolls, and heaven

Surely is a white, white place with angels

Robed in white, and cotton candy and ice cream

and milk and ruffled Sunday dresses

And dream houses and long sleek Cadillacs

And angel's food is white…all, all…white.

What can I say therefore, when my child

Comes home in tears because a playmate

Has called him black, big lipped, flatnosed

and nappy headed? What will he think

When I dry his tears and whisper, "Yes, that's true.

But no less beautiful and dear."

How shall I lift up his head, get him to square

His shoulders, look his adversaries in the eye,

Confident of the knowledge of his worth,

Serene under his sable skin and proud of his own beauty?

What can I do to give him strength

That he may come through life's adversities 

As a whole human being unwarped and human in a world

Of biased laws and inhuman practices, that he might 

Survive. And survive he must! For who knows?

Perhaps this black child here bears the genius

To discover the cure for…Cancer

Or to chart the course for exploration of the universe. 

So, he must survive for the good of all humanity.

He must and will survive.

I have drunk deeply of late from the foundation

Of my black culture, sat at the knee and learned

From Mother Africa, discovered the truth of my heritage,

The truth, so often obscured and omitted. 

And I find I have much to say to my black children. 

I will lift up their heads in proud blackness

With the story of their fathers and their fathers 

Fathers. And I shall take them into a way back time

of Kings and Queens who ruled the Nile,

And measured the stars and discovered the 

Laws of mathematics. Upon whose backs have been built

The wealth of continents. I will tell him

This and more. And his heritage shall be his weapon

And his armor; will make him strong enough to win

Any battle he may face. And since this story is 

Often obscured, I must sacrifice to find it 

For my children, even as I sacrificed to feed, 

Clothe and shelter them. So this I will do for them

If I love them. None will do it for me.

I must find the truth of heritage for myself

And pass it on to them. In years to come I believe

Because I have armed them with the truth, my children

And my children's children will venerate me. 

For it is the truth that will make us free!

[00:16:52.40]

And this poem really is the genesis of the DuSable Museum of African American History. And I'm very happy that I was inspired by whatever gods there be—the African gods or the other gods or whatever gods—to write it and to put it down in words. Signing off. 

[00:17:16.53]

ANNA TYLER:  Thank you, Margaret, for allowing the Archives to document your exciting and varied career. 

[END OF TRACK AAA_burrou88_2873_m]

[END OF INTERVIEW.]