Transcript
Preface
The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Margaret Roach Wheeler on October 1 – 24, 2022. The interview took place over Zoom in the artist's home and studio in Sulphur, Oklahoma, and was conducted by Laura Marshall Clark for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.
Margaret Roach Wheeler and Laura Marshall Clark have reviewed the transcript. Their corrections and emendations appear below in brackets with initials. This transcript has been lightly edited for readability by the Archives of American Art. The reader should bear in mind that they are reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose.
Interview
[00:00:03.31]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Hi, Margaret.
[00:00:04.81]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Hi.
[00:00:06.31]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: It’s good to see you today.
[00:00:08.47]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Well, I'm hap—happy to be here, finally.
[00:00:12.79]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: [Laughs] I know. This is Laura Marshall Clark, and I'm interviewing Margaret Roach Wheeler. It is October 21, 2022, and Margaret is interviewing from her home and studio. And she is in Sulphur, Oklahoma. Margaret, I wanted to, specifically, talk with you today about, uh, your environment there in your home, about your creativity, and how, uh, your interest in environments began. And you have a whole lot more to add to that, so I'll let you share some things that we began in a conversation earlier.
[00:01:03.99]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Well, I always have been wanting to be an artist. That's my main goal. One time, I was in the first grade—um, we lived in Montana at that time, and my brother, Bob, was 10 years older than I was. And he would take me out in the woods behind the house—Mother always put him in charge of me, and she, uh, thought I was in good hands. Well, he told me that fairies and elves lived in the base of this little trees, and he would show me, you know, how you see going into the base the tree, and he would leave me. And he'd go do what he wanted to do for several hours, and I would be out there, literally using my imagination, and in nature. And I was always happy. I was making little acorns, you know, doll hats, and there was a stream nearby, and I would build paths. But, I was always waiting for the fairies and elves to come out of the tree.
[00:02:11.43]
Well, then, to fast-forward, um, my graduate research—Marjorie Schick was my advisor, and she wanted—she coached me quite a bit and—to think of things in your life that really made a difference to you. And I thought of that time with Bob and being in the woods. And it was just really magical, the whole thing—experience of bringing it back to life. And so, uh, my graduate research problem—project was a large tree.
[00:02:53.61]
It was mounted—I used insulation cloth that a friend, uh, had given me. He would give me pieces, and so I pieced together a—it was 12-feet ceilings in the, in our gallery, and I went clear to the ceiling with it, and patched a tree, and then, stuffed parts of the tree. And it came down, and it had roots that went out in all directions and down the halls. And inside it, I created a environment. Um, an—and, you have to realize, not a lot of money, so I was using scrap things that I could find. And I took—I got a mattress—an old mattress, and I hooked a rug, cutting strips of old cloth—uh, wool coats from the Salvation Army. I would strip those into long lengths, and I would hook them into this, and they covered the whole mattress. And it was a queen-sized mattress. It fit inside the environment.
[00:04:05.11]
And, uh, some of the pockets I saved. Collars had furs on them. And I would put fur inside the pockets. And then, on the back wall, I made a huge weaving. Again, I went [to] Salvation Army. I bought lots of old, big things that I could rip up into long stripes. And I put—my loo—loom was a, um, tapestry loom that was hooked onto the ceiling and went to the floor. And I would weave into that. And I got halfway up, and I would turn it and weave the rest. And I would—I did this tapestry tree. And so, the whole inside of the outside shell of the tree was this environment.
[00:05:03.05]
Um, and, and it was really turned out cozy and nice. And they elected to leave it up long past my show, my graduate show. And professors would take their, their pictures in there for, um, their group show. And students would go in there and study [laughs]. And so—
[00:05:26.10]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I love it.
[00:05:26.93]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: —it was very successful. And I realized—really, before that, but while I was building that—that, um, your environment really creates who you are. I know I was a high school art teacher at the time. And I would always tell my students to look at the room real closely, be aware of your environment, because it's who you are. Look at the bedside table. What are the things you collect on that? What are the posters that you put up on your wall? They are all your personal art. They speak of who you are and to be aware of that.
[00:06:10.88]
And, I know, I think of my son. When he was a—uh, little, he had pictures of Disney characters on his wall, around his bed. And, uh, then, as he got older, he collected little cars. You know, that was when they had those Hot Wheel cars. And he had Hot Wheels on his m—posters up, and on a bedside table, and his dealings with that cards, and such.
[00:06:43.06]
And so, as he got older, I noticed, all at once, you know, Farrah Fawcett was up on his wall. All these glamor girls were up on the wall. His, his tas—tastes changed. His art style changed. And, uh, it just—it's great to see, to, to be observant of that and see it. It's also in how we dress, how we present ourself. It's all an art form. And if you're aware of it, you can control it, to some degree. And, I think, that is what really makes us who we are, uh, is understanding our environment and being a part of it, making personal choices of that art. And we have always done that in our homes.
[00:07:37.95]
And, um, we've—I've been lucky enough. I thought about going to architecture school when I was in—uh, I was about 30 years old. And we lived close to Fayetteville [AR], where [E.] Fay Jones was um, an architect, the instructor, there. He was nationally known. And I was an art teacher. And I thought, "I really want to do this architecture thing." And I thought about going and getting my architect’s degree.
[00:08:11.83]
But my—I had two children that were young at that time. And, um I didn't do it. But, I was fortunate enough that my husband and I have built five homes. We've—well, really, four homes, and then I've built a studio cottage. And, um, they've been really different because I got to choose what I wanted. We'd find a house plan we liked.
[00:08:40.44]
The first one we built all on our own. And it was a two-story with a wrought iron, circular staircase that went up to our bedroom. And we had a balcony off of it. It was two -levels [inaudible] the main level. So, it was really a three-level. But, it was only 1,100 square feet. And I had two children. It—but, it was plenty of space. It was all open and wide, and we had 17-foot ceilings at a peak. And, and, uh, it took us a year to build with help of friends and family. And we had a great time doing it. And neither one of us had ever done anything like that. But, it was such a learning experience. And, uh, it was good for the marriage [laughs]. You know, they say if you can build a house together, you have a good marriage.
[00:09:38.43]
And, uh, Glen began to trust me in my decisions, making it unique, making it different. We had always lived in the woods. We had a back deck that looked off into the wood. And it was really a fun, fun place to live. Then, later, we bought the lot, acre lot next door and built another one. And it was unique, too. It was very different.
[00:10:09.40]
And so, we have just progressed on until now, where I have the house that we live in. Um, I was fortunate enough to be asked to be artist in residence for the Chickasaw tribe. And I had to move to Oklahoma. But, uh, we had a beautiful home that we built in Joplin, Missouri. And in that home, uh, we had secret rooms. I had a children's suite that had drawings in it, murals on walls, uh, from the artist Carl Larsson, he painted his family. And this is the late 1800s. He painted his family. And they had built-in beds that doors closed and curtains closed over. And that's what I wanted for my grandchildren, then.
[00:11:12.95]
And so, I built this fantasy suite for them. And it was so much fun. It was—the, the floor was wide tile that I hand painted a cement floor, going down to a narrow tile that then went up the wall, and a fairy turning the tile into geese, and the geese flying out toward you. I mean, it was this pure whimsy. And I loved doing that. I loved creating that environment. And it inspires others. Um, the grandkids loved to come there. And there were toys and everything. And so, that's been one of the main things in my life that I feel like is an important creative thing and one way I can express myself beyond what I do as artwork. And I can live in it, and I can create my own environment.
[00:12:16.51]
So, that brings me up to the house we're in now. And that—when the Chickasaws, um, hired me, we had the beautiful house in Joplin that we—very large house. And I had five bedrooms, and a secret room, and a bookcase that opened up going into a secret room. And, um, I came here. I didn't want to live here, permanently. We were going to live in Joplin, but I would build a house, which would be a studio for me. And then, I'd go back and forth.
[00:13:00.00]
And so, the—this house was built as a studio. But I wanted it to model after what I was doing research, at that time. When I came up to Chickasaws, I, um, I am a Southeastern Indian. I'm Chickasaw and Choctaw. But, I had never really explored the costumes of that—those tribes. I'd always done Plains, Northwest Coast, Southwests [tribes] in my artwork. And so, um, what—when I was hired by the Chickasaws' artists in residence, I really narrowed down my studies to the Southeast and to what, um, iconography we were using. And it changed—it just completely changed me. That'd been about 15 years ago, and—or 14.
[00:14:04.32]
And I was working on a project, Lowak [Shoppala’], and staying mostly in hotels. And I don't like eating out. I like cooking for myself. And so, I told Glenn, "I'm going to—" because it just kept adding more onto me. As far as artists in residence, I could see that it was going to continue, that I was going to be down here for two weeks regularly. And I had rented a small apartment at one time, when I was working on costumes for the production of Lowak Shoppala’.
[00:14:42.45]
And so I, I said, "I want to build a studio. And I, um, will make it so that it will be like a home for resale value." And he s—he agreed that that would be a good idea. I would get out of hotels and I would be in a, a space. I looked for land, and I came across this land that is only one, um, mile from our Cultural Center, the Chickasaw Cultural Center.
[00:15:15.44]
And it, it borders this state recreational—or, federal. It's a national recreation—Chickasaw National Recreation Area. And so, it—the view is astounding. And, um, I couldn't believe that this land waited for me. I felt like it was, uh, almost a mythical thing that this land was here. When I just had the, the man that was showing me the property, I said, "No, stop, I want to see—" and I knew immediately that I wanted this piece of property. And so, I bought the property. It took us about a year before we started building. And I built it. I had been to Moundville and Ocmulgee Mounds [National Historical Park]. And, and that's in Macon, Georgia. And, um, Moundville's in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. And I was so impressed with Moundville, the structure, the house that was built upon one of the mounds.
[00:16:25.40]
And at Ocmulgee Mounds, they had an underground—um, I—it was almost a ceremonial place. And it had big columns out in front of it. And so, when I came to wanting to build this house, it was between building a moundbuilder's house or a dogtrot . My father was born in a dogtrot. And so, I had both, both of my, um, plans. And it was supposed to be a small house. And so, the mound house beat out the dogtrot. I didn't—I didn't build that house.
[00:17:07.15]
So, when you approach the house, you—I wanted—there were no windows on the front. So, in a way, every place that was public is shut out. You start walking into the entry, you see the view the minute you get to the house. The front, it's no windows. Laura, do you have a picture of the front of the house? [Cross talk.]
[00:17:50.60]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I sure do. Let me pull that up and share my screen so that, um, everyone can see it as you talk. I began with the photo of driving into your driveway with the Mahotan. If you wanted to start there—[cross talk]—and then, I can go through there. [Cross talk.]
[00:18:09.92]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: The Mahotans were somebody—uh, the name of my business was Mahota. That—it's my great, great grandmother. And we'll go into that history at a later—another conversation. So my—[cross talk].
[00:18:23.57]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Margaret, I'm going to—stop, just a minute. Let me make sure that I've shared my screen. I don't think I have.
[00:18:29.38]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Okay.
[00:18:30.53]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I don't want to miss, um, allowing people to see this. And here we go. I'll do it this time. And here, we'll start again with a Mahotan [slide: photo of Wind People sculpture]. Thank you.
[00:18:43.04]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yeah. But, my great great grandmother, who came to Indian Territory from Removal—during Removal from Mississippi, name was Mahota, Mahota Love. And so, I've been using that name for my business for 33 years, 34 years. And, um, the Mahotans were wooden poles with carved faces—I say they're a tribe, the Mahotan tribe.
[00:19:23.72]
And there are three clans within the tribe. There is the, um, Venitian tribe. And they've got glass faces and hand-woven robes. And they're very small. And then, there are the Woodland tribes. And they go all the way from three feet up to six feet, eight feet tall. And I have carved faces and, again, hand-woven robes. And then, we have the Wind people. And the Wind People go outside. And they are woven with polypropylene.
[00:20:01.61]
I didn't realize—I just sort of started doing these on a whim. They became pretty popular. And I had collectors who bought, uh, the—them. And I always—one couple bought, I bet, 10 to 15. Um, and they would buy them at the Eiteljorg [Museum]. They'd buy two or three at a time of the Wind People, large pieces. And they even sent their friends one year to buy one of the Wind People. And, um, I said, "What do they do with these?" She said, "Oh, it is wonderful. They put them around and, they have dinner parties with them, with people—that your spirit poles are all, all around them." And, uh, it's, it's—I just loved doing them.
[00:20:58.52]
But, again, it was one of the Wind People that, um—he stands at the entrance to our property. And he wards off impending dangers. The Chippewa tribe used to hang clothing and other, uh, items in tree limbs to ward off impending danger. And I always loved that. So, the Wind People are, are that, if you put them near your house. And also, the Mandans used poles and carved into them and, and hung cloth from them and pelts from them. Um, and so, they, they've always been a very important part of my environment, I guess you'd say, because I always have them. And I have some inside.
[00:21:55.25]
At the moment, I've only got one. I don't have any of the Venitians. But, I've thought about going back and bringing the, the Mahotan tribe back. But, they—there's only two of them right now that I have. But, this one is at the entrance when you come into our property. [Slide: photo of shed roof house]. And then, when you come down towards the house, you see, um, the house. It is a shed roof house. There's no windows on the front. Uh, in the spring, we let it grow with the wildflowers out in front. And we've got a, not a long drive, but a, a meandering drive down through wildflowers to get to it. And as you go—you approach it, it has the two columns on the front, as you can see. [Slide: photo of close up of shed roof house]. And this is what I saw at Ocmulgee Mounds that I just loved, uh, and, and included.
[00:22:53.57]
The door is from Santa Fe. And I bought it way before the house was built, just because I loved it and we stored it until the house was built. And it's a hip roof. And then, I put a cupola, more or less, on it. That is our smoke hole that's at the center of the house. That's where I'm sitting today. It, it goes up to the—as high as this is and have light up in there, and then, a, a shed roof, so there is the house. [Slide: photo of alternate view of house].
[00:23:30.17]
Now, when you open the front door, this view, [slide: photo of living room]. [Slide: photo of alternate view of house]. The door is open there. And if you could expand this, you see straight through the house to the National Park. And it's a beautiful view to the east. We watch the sunrise. And, and it's such an inspiration to be able to follow the seasons here and to see the dramatic changes that go. [Slides: photos of sunrise].
[00:24:09.98]
[Slide: photo of living room]. So, that is the living room. The house is small. It's 1,700 square feet. And when I built it—the studio—a large room was going to go in this space. And I was going to have my work table. And I had places to store looms. And, and we never—I never got to do that. The Chickasaws had me open a gallery, um, studio, weaving studio, where I taught, taught weaving. So, I lived in this house while I worked in the studio. I lived here three years on my own.
[00:24:50.35]
And then, one day, my husband said, “I’m going to sell Joplin and move down here.” And so, he did. We sold the big house. And we moved from 4,000 square feet to 1,700 square feet. And, uh, it’s, uh—we—it’s been a wonderful experience. And we see everything here. It’s really gorgeous. [Slide: photo of rainbow]. Um, the rainbows. We see storms coming in, storms going through. [Slides: photos of sunrise]. You see the skylight. And then, and—
[00:25:27.55]
[Slide: photo of room with lit Christmas trees]. Now, this is in the smoke hole. At Christmas, I put trees up on all the poles. I have large log poles that go up to the ceiling. Um, I'm sitting in them now. So, in back of me, you can see part of them. And it's very—it's small, but it's a dramatic home. And it's really wonderful. [Slide: photo of sunset]. You can watch the sun go across.
[00:25:52.18]
Uh, right now, it's October. The sun has gone behind the cedars on the right-hand side. And so, they go—it literally goes across the horizon to the left. And, uh, we can follow the equinox, really, when the sun disappears to the one side or the other.
[00:26:17.48]
[Slide: photo of deer in a backyard]. So, this is my inspiration, being in nature, being—and it all goes back to my love of being in the woods. And that's one reason my husband's—when he said, "Where do you want to die?" And I said, "Right here," [laughs]. So, that's when he decided to move down here because we just had fallen in love with this, uh, place. And—but, when he did move, we needed—I needed a place to, um, weave. [Slide: photo of large birds in a backyard]. And so. we, we had to build. We built a garage. [Slide: photograph of small building with shed roof]. I didn't have a garage before. And we built my studio. This is my studio and guest cottage at our home. And, uh, we have added this railing, which is my Mahota. It's my logo. It's, uh, circles.
[00:27:22.28]
And here, you, you can see—it's got sweet grass growing over the circles. And a friend, Jorge Leyva, from Joplin, built that for me. And, um, you can see, I've used the large poles and no windows on the front of the studio also. And it's got a view out the back, and a very different view from the house.
[00:27:46.90]
[Slide: photos of kitchen and dining room]. And when you go, uh—the kitchen, when I designed the kitchen, I used the tile—is all mounds. And we had a—did you get a close up view of the—? Yeah. [Slide: photos of kitchen and yellow tiles]. All my handmade tiles, our close up views, are mounds. And then, also, there's, um, turtles. There's other things stamped in it. And Melody Knowles, a friend in Joplin, an artist, created those for me. You can see them on the back wall, going to—I have views of mountains with all of our symbols: the circles, the spirals, um, the turtles, the fish, all, all in them.
[00:28:38.68]
And then, for my backdrop, I etched a glass. That's a Chickasaw map of a, a rendering, my interpretation of it, and one of the sun symbols. [Slide: photos of kitchen and dining room]. And you will see, in a final view, the sun symbol. I've put that, when you move around in the room, you can see it. It wasn't painted on. I hadn't put it on the first one. And I collect all Southeastern artists. The first—the small—the earlier picture had a Brenda Kingery in the kitchen. [Slide: photos of kitchen and yellow tiles]. Now, I have a Shan Goshorn. [Slide: photos of kitchen and dining room]. But, all the pottery is Southeastern. The imagery is Southeast in this house.
[00:29:33.37]
So, I really live in an environment that is part of my life, and it's what I really believe in. And, um, it en—it en—encourages me every day to work. You see behind me, these are all research books on this side, and Chickasaw books from the Chickasaw Press in the middle, and then, the family books on this side.
[00:30:09.56]
It's, um, it's really important to me to be surrounded by this. And I consider this art and a part of my life. Now, I've, I've spoken a long time without any—[laughs].
[00:30:23.77]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: No, it was wonderful. Uh, it really was very re—revelatory to understand, even when you began with your Master's program and how they gave you an opportunity, you know, your project, and how to create an environment for your exhibition. And, um—
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[00:00:04.62]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Um, you know, it's not only creating an environment in an exhibition space, but then, you—you're teaching us how to do it in everyday life, in our homes and in our personal space. But, as we see what you've done with your own home and thinking about building all those homes across the years and all the things that you've learned from that, I'm wondering, um, even going forward, do you—and you're—and I know you're very settled where you are, and it's clear that it's an incredible place that you all have created together—do you have thoughts of additions or something else you want to do to it?
[00:00:50.34]
I'm very interested even in the Mississippian concepts from that period of history in our Southeast tribes. Do you have other things that you might want to add to the home or, or continue on in what you're doing now?
[00:01:06.57]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Well, we, we do have a com—compound here, um, [clears throat] which they lived in compounds, more or less, with a lot of different houses, but we have two shop buildings, and a separate garage, and my studio. So, all together, we look like multiple houses—little houses here, which I like, [clears throat] when you're driving down the road. People always—they say, "Huh, I wonder what that—I've always wanted to come in this house." So, people are curious because, uh, they see it.
[00:01:44.20]
And, as far as building more here on this property, I don't really see that. It's, um—we—we're stretched from one edge of our property to the other, and I want to leave the back open, so we will always have that view like it is, um, and then, we've got quite a view going up towards the Mahotan. And so, I—I don't see us building here anymore, but I'm constantly rearranging things and bringing new artwork in, changing the artwork.
[00:02:25.80]
And I've also curated shows, um, where I create the environment in the studio, so—or in a gallery so that, I always feel like, when people come into a gallery they've seen over and over and over again, I want it to look different to them and give a new—a new experience in seeing I've done that about six times. One I create, it's called A Tribute to the Mandans. I don't know if you've ever seen it. Um, it's—
[00:03:05.94]
I, I heard where an African tribe was dying of AIDS, and I thought, "oh, how, how history repeats itself so often." The Mandans, and the Hidatsa, and the Aikara, they all perished—the, the tribes were almost gone, there were a few survivors that banded together from the smallpox, back in the 1800s, uh, because they lived in closed houses. And it, it was just history repeating itself.
[00:03:47.91]
So, I created a show which is an environment in which you walk into—and I have a spirits of the Mandan that hang down. They're on gauze. You can see—I painted on gauze so that you see both sides of them. And, uh, you walk through then, I have one of my pieces at the end, like a god or Great Spirit gathering them in. And I did a 40-foot mural for the wall in that exhibit.
[00:04:25.60]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Wow.
[00:04:26.37]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: And so, that was creating an environment. Um, I've had that in a—many galleries. And, every time I show it, it's, it's different. One time, I was at [University of] Miami of Ohio. And, I—when I went into the gallery, I didn't know where I would be showing, and it was in the architectural building. And they said, "Oh, you're in the cage," which is downstairs, and I thought, "Oh." And I went down, and, in the space above, it had a skylight, a large skylight, and a glass floor, and then, I was under that glass floor.
[00:05:13.31]
And I took the cage out, [laughs] which was just a big wire door. They could open it up, and have—I covered that with the insulation cloth. I, I would buy huge rolls of insulation cloth, and I covered all of that with the insulation cloth.
[00:05:31.58]
And I hung the Mandans. They're six, um, images, life-sized images, and they all have altar poles. And I put the creator at the end and put the—put, uh, a piece at the beginning. And that was one of the most spectacular—because the clouds, as they would go across the sky, they would take—you know, they moved across my images, and it was, it was really wonderful. And it was shown in Cincinnati, a different gallery, entirely different. I had to, you know, create them as I went into them, whatever.
[00:06:17.42]
It was shown in St. Louis. I showed it there. And the gallery had a glass wall out into the lobby, and they let me go out in the lobby. And, there, I made a Mandan tent and, out—and put my ancestors all in there.
[00:06:38.84]
And they were large. They were, they were three feet by eight feet tall. No, not that—so six [feet] eight [inches]. They're door-sized sized, three-feet-wide white images. Their faces were hand-woven and hand-cast, and they were put in robes over their heads, and then, a shield for their directions, and they're the Four Directions and the Earth and the Sky. And, uh, there, you can see how influenced I am by environment and time and seasons.
[00:07:14.06]
And they closed, and I put sort of a stringer, and then, I went on top of that. Out in the lobby was a skull that hung above the entrance, and you would part that. And you'd go in, and you'd get to look into the Mandan show where they're all hanging, and you see that.
[00:07:36.62]
So, it was—it's very different. In each gallery you get, the space creates it. So, um, I loved, I loved it. And it's all rolled up in my closet, right now, so [they laugh]. [Cross talk.]
[00:07:50.27]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: So, um, let me ask you this much—because I love hearing about the Mandans and the Hidatsa. I've seen your—I've seen photographs of some of your work. I've never seen it, you know, ex—exhibited. However, uh, I've been in your home, many times, and it is an incredible experience, just to be in your home and be within the walls, and the way you've, you've carefully planned everything and the beautiful wood poles that you have there, and smoke hole, and the view out your back windows. and your porch.
[00:08:31.87]
So, I'm curious as to—now, you know, you moved to the Chickasaw Nation while you were an artist-in-residence, and you already had the research, your Mississippian research you'd done, uh, with your Smithsonian fellowship and other work. Once you moved onto the Chickasaw Nation, so to speak, and you were there in the land, what—did you find something happen to you personally as you were developing your home? You were working in a variety of capacities, really, for the Chickasaws. Tell me what happened to you personally when you moved there.
[00:09:15.32]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: You have to realize my mother and father—my mother was raised about 20 miles south, and my father, oh, an hour away. And that—it's at the turn of the century. It was still Indian Territory when my parents—or—they're original enrollees, and, uh, Dad's Choctaw and Mother's Chickasaw, and they left here as teenagers.
[00:09:45.32]
I grew up not knowing a whole lot about this. My grandmother lived with us, and she would tell me some stories about it. I would see paintings. I've—I've seen photographs of this area, and, um, but—but, I was never down here.
[00:10:04.25]
We came back twice in my, in my early life. When my grandmother died, when I was 15, we brought her down, and she's buried about 20 miles from me now. And, uh, I came back another time with my grandmother, when she was living, to see [William H.] "Alfalfa" Bill Murray. We lived in Montana then, and we'd came back to Oklahoma to visit, and she, uh, wanted to see him. So, we went to Tishomingo, then, and visit them with him.
[00:10:40.94]
And when I moved down here, it was really the third time I had been here. I had already done my Smithsonian research and—on the Mississippians. And, uh, really, the Chickasaw tribe was—it—it hadn't grown to what it is today. It was a small tribe, a, a small organization, I guess you would say a business. And I came down and made a presentation of what—a pole I had done. For the Smithsonian research was—one of the requirements is to give back to my community.
[00:11:24.04]
And then, oh, I think it was about 2006 or '07 when I went to a listening conference. I always got the Chickasaw newspaper, and would read it, and so, I, I was aware of it, but I just never had come. And so, I took my portfolio to, um, the Chickasaw Learning Conference—and my nephew, who's a lawyer in Phoenix [AZ], well, he came with me—it was just the most eye-opening time. They showed us all the different things the tribe was doing.
[00:12:17.57]
I met Lona Barrick at that time, who was the, um, Director of the Arts and Humanities Division. They had a division, then, that they didn't have when I came the first time. And, um, she took my portfolio and, that day, she introduced me to Jerod [Impichchaachaaha'] Tate, and I was impressed with him. And he had a project that he was doing, and then he, talked to me about it a little bit, but I went on home.
[00:12:52.17]
And then, they offered me that contract to come down here. And Glen and I came down, and we were so impressed with the tribe and what they were doing. And so, I built the home, and it was like coming home. It was, literally—I was coming back to a home that I didn't know I had. You know? It's where my parents—[cries]. So, but it was coming home. [Cries.]
[END OF TRACK AAA_wheele22_2of7_digvid_m.]
[00:00:03.69]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Well, you can tell how emotional I get when I talk about it. But, one thing that we will do is this: it will be protected. As far as the land itself, it's, uh, it's a treasure. It's really a treasure to be here and, and just to come home, to come home. That's what it means.
[00:00:36.07]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Thank you, Margaret.
[END OF TRACK AAA_wheele22_3of7_digvid_m.]
[00:00:04.86]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: This is Laura Marshall Clark, Muskogee Creek. And, today, I'm interviewing Margaret Roach Wheeler, Chickasaw/Choctaw artist, who's coming to us from her home in Sulphur, Oklahoma. It is October 23, 2022, and this is card two. Good morning, Margaret.
[00:00:26.97]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Good morning. How are you, Laura?
[00:00:28.52]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I'm very well. Thank you. How about you?
[00:00:32.99]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: I'm okay today. Not quite as bright as I was in our last interview; I've had a stroke, and my voice is a little bit, uh, you know. I hope I can be understood.
[00:00:50.18]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: No. [Cross talk.] You sound wonderful. And, um, for those who are watching and don't know that, um, it's been a few months since your stroke. And you've worked so hard to just, you know, recover and heal quickly. It's—I've been amazed, actually, Margaret.
[00:01:15.24]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Well, [cross talk] no talking and no walking. Or—it's—It's been exciting.
[00:01:23.44]
[They laugh.]
[00:01:25.55]
It's been a challenge, and, uh, been a good one. It's been a good challenge. So—
[00:01:30.98]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: So, tell—tell us how far you walk every day.
[00:01:36.09]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: We're up to two miles a day walking. We have a beautiful park here, and we walk in it every morning—and, um, two miles. So—[cross talk].
[00:01:47.16]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: And, so, I'm going to digress, just a minute, because of—I know how much you love being outdoors, how much nature means to you. Tell me, um, how therapeutic just being outdoors and walking has been for you.
[00:02:03.28]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Prob—possibly everything. The, the forests or the trees are wonderful in a park. And we have a lot of rock formations, and springs, uh, streams. And all of it's inspiring. And it just—you know, I look forward to it. It starts my day out right. Now, on Saturday, Sunday, we don't walk. And so, I didn't get to walk this morning, but, uh, I probably should have so that [laughs]—that might be a little brighter, a little quicker. But, it's, it's been five months now, and, and it's good. It's good.
[00:02:44.62]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that with us. Um, we really appreciate it. It's very meaningful to know what you have been through and how others can benefit from just hearing how, uh, you've recovered. You've done so well, and we're so grateful.
[00:03:05.73]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Well, [cross talk] I am grateful, too. It's, it's just that I am so active, that—I just have to be active. So, I—it's been great incentive to get back to normal. And I am mostly with my legs. But, the voice—the voice is not coming along. I'm doing exercise, tongue exercises and everything, trying to—last, last night, I was doing them so that I would be sharper today [laughs].
[00:03:36.55]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Well, you sound great.
[00:03:38.21]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Okay.
[00:03:40.24]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Today, we thought we would talk about some of your earlier history. Because, as we all know, um, how we grow up—our formative years, and then, even our families around us, how much they impact the work that, that we do. And, um, we're—I—you were kind enough to provide photographs for me of, of some of your family and some of your earlier days. So, we're going to look through those while you talk [cross talk] and let you, kind of, share with us.
[00:04:16.00]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Well, I would love to. So, if you'll start them. I'll start with, um, French Nancy. [Slide: photograph of two women sitting in an art studio.]
[00:04:24.76]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Let me start from the beginning here [slide: photograph of a woven image of a figure on horseback]. All right.
[00:04:32.46]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Um, I'm—and I'm going to read some of this because it is—it's just so good. I've been one of these people that is fortunate enough to have had my early history written out, and, um, other people have contributed it. And so, French Nancy, is a first person I know of, and Alikuhio Hosh.
[00:04:57.97]
It's said [reading], "An incident occurred in the retreat of [Pierre] d'Artaguette, a French general who, uh, was attacking the Chickasaws. And a young Chickasaw warrior named Alikuhio Hosh, they, they were chasing the retreating forces of D'Artaguette. And they came across a French girl, very young, and whom he took into his care. And he took her back to his village.
[00:05:32.06]
And, uh, as time passed, the child grew among the wild, free children. In due course, he married—um, she married Alikuhio Hosh and was Chickasaw. They called her 'French Nancy.' She was raised in a large family. She lived to be a very old age of 91. And, universally, was respected by the Chickasaws, who looked upon her as a monument to their victory over D'Artaguette.
[00:06:07.67]
Reverend T.C. Stuart, a missionary, said he saw her in 1821. She was 90 years old. And, uh, he remembered some of the circumstances connected—she remembered some of the circumstances connected to her capture and was pleased to recall them. She retained her European features, but she was a true Chickasaw."
[00:06:33.47]
So, that was my great- great- great- great-grandmother—four "greats" back. And so, I did this needle weaving, um, to commemorate that time. So, French Nancy is thrown over the front of the horse. And Alikuhio Hosh is the warrior. And he's taking her back to the village, and her legs are sticking out. So, you see her can-cans and legs over the—that's what is over the front of the horse, if you could see it.
[00:07:08.31]
And this is a miniature weaving. It's only—um, oh, what—about five, five inches big, and—but it's all woven. And so, I—I—I like this piece because it sort of speaks to a time period that was very important to the Chickasaws. And they are making a movie of it now, the Battle of Ackia. And it was—the Battle of Ackia was, um, in Tupelo, I believe, Mississippi. And I have visited that site. And it's now a neighborhood of houses, built probably in the [19]60s and '70s. So, this scene sort of depicts that time.
[00:08:03.01]
So, that was French Nancy. She and Alikuhio Hosh were the parents of Mahota. And I have a quite a bit of information on Mahota. She was my great- great- great- grandmother, who came in 18—you can show the next slide [slide: photograph of a lone tombstone under trees]. She came in 1844. And she is buried down in, uh, Burneyville [OK], which is about an hour, 15 minutes from my home here down [Interstate] 35. You turn, and you go—you go to Marietta, and you turn off [I-]35. And it is on a dirt road. It's up on top of a hill, and it is a family cemetery.
[00:08:49.15]
Some of the Burneys are buried there. Her daughter married a Burney, and, um, she went to them. She was—in 1844, she was older. And I don't know—uh, this is when she died at 80—I think she was 84 when she died. And they had—they were close to the Red River where they lived and very prominent people. They had a large land, and what they call the plantation.
[00:09:21.12]
And she married Thomas Love, um, and—when they were in Mississippi, in the homeland. And he had died there. They had quite a few children. And he taught them English. And, of course, they talked Chickasaw. And they were interpreters. Many of his children were interpreters. I know I have a book in which they talk about, um, a Love, which was one of their child.
[00:09:51.39]
He passed away. He is buried there in Indian—he is buried in, um, Monroe Mission. And Mahota came with her stepson. She was the second wife of Thomas Love. And she came with her stepsons and came to Indian Territory with her children. And so, then—then, you can go to the next slide, which is of—[cross talk].
[00:10:23.68]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I'd like to ask you a question before we move on. For those who, um, have wondered about where their loved ones are buried in the Southeast before Removal—I'm curious as to how you found where she was buried.
[00:10:45.43]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: It was known in our family. Um, it—we have a book, The Chickasaw Loves, and it, it, it is their whole story, and it tells where she is buried. My mother's, um, cousin started doing research in 1935, when a lot of the old people were still—that we call old—were living, and, uh, in the 1800s and on. And she interviewed them. And she went to Tennessee, to Mississippi, and looked at records.
[00:11:22.81]
And she put together a book called The Chickasaw Loves, and, and they're all in there. And it tells our story. That's why I am so fortunate it was, it was given to me—the book was. My parents gave it to me when I was probably in my thirties, forties. And Marie Garland had written a book about it. [Cross talk.]
[00:11:46.51]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: That's wonderful. Yes, you are very fortunate.
[00:11:50.23]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: You, you go—you have to crawl under a barbed wire fence and go up through a cow pasture to this. But then, it's it's kept up. It's all, um, right. And, as you can see, her tombstone is still standing. Some of them are down. But, it's, it's fenced from the cattle. So, it's, it's—
[00:12:12.45]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Well, thank you for letting us know that. That's wonderful.
[00:12:17.35]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: It's a beautiful sight. You can see the hillside. You can see all around you.
[00:12:23.53]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Lovely.
[00:12:26.59]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: [Slide: black and white portrait photographs of three figures.] So, then, her daughter was the first picture you see here, and that is Nancy Mahota. She is named after her grandmother Nancy and Mahota herself. So, uh Nancy Mahota also was—they were born in Mississippi, between Holly Springs and Oxford were their lands.
[00:12:50.62]
And, um, they—she and her husband, who was a Scotsman, she came in 18—or, or they were in 19—1851. They came to the Fort Smith [AR] area. He was a herb doctor—and, uh, and back then, it was called a doctor—and was a Scotsman whose family had come from Scotland and settled in the Natch—Natchez Trace, I believe, during the time of the—oh, what, what the Scottish—the English tried to—Jacobian—the Jacobian times, when a lot of Scots people came, uh, to America.
[00:13:45.46]
They settled in the Trace in the late 1700s. And he was born there. He—he came at four years old. He came at four years old and was raised there. And, when I look at an old map, I can see that Mahota's land and his parents land were neighboring, um, properties. So, she, evidently, knew him most of her life and married him. And then, they, they lived at Poteau Hill outs—it was in Indian territory. And he went into Fort Scott, where, where he was a doctor.
[00:14:26.47]
And she was visiting her mother in Burneyville when he died. And so, she did not go back there to live. And she is also buried—and I haven't found her graveyard. She was supposed to have been buried in the lake. She was supposed to have been buried, and they made a lake of it later, and they moved the graves. And I believe her grave is at Powell [OK]. And a tombstone was not set up, is what I've been told by relatives. And I've always meant to go find her tombstone. But, um, she's she is there.
[00:15:05.11]
And then, she had my grandfather—my great-grandfather. And he is pictured on the right. And he was, um, at a one time, a Chickasaw judge. And they lived in—I have letters between him and his wife that are handwritten. They're very formal. And he's building a house in Tishomingo [OK].
[00:15:42.62]
My grandmother, who is in the middle there that you see, she was three years old when the letters were being written. So, she was three years old when he was building their home in Tishomingo. And, um, I, I believe she was down where Mahota—and Nancy Mahota were. And the letters are going between Tishomingo and that area.
[00:16:10.16]
And he talks about in the letters—it's, it's "baby," "sweet baby," being three years old, and that is my grandmother. And he also mentions, one time, he's working on the house, and, uh, Governor [Douglas H.] Johnston goes by. He said, "Johnston went by." I'm assuming it was Governor Johnston, who was the governor of the Chickasaw Nation at that time, um, went by—was craning his neck to see what was going on.
[00:16:43.56]
So, I, I love that I have that connection with that—you know. And my grandmother was born in 1880. So, that would have been 1883 that the letters were written. And that's really special. But, I, it—I think it's hard for people today to believe that my grandparents were, um, born in the 1880s. And my parents were 40 years old when I was born. So, I was raised very much knowing about the history of, of my family at the turn of the century. If you'll go to the next pictures. [Slide: three black and white photographs of five family members.]
[00:17:39.99]
My father and my mother—my mother was born in Tishomingo. And my father was born in Wapanucka [OK]. Um, Mother was a very proper—and I didn't understand so much about her upbringing until I went to the Chickasaw White House. It's in Emmett, Oklahoma. And at Chickasaw White House is Governor Johnson lived. And, he, um, he—when I walked in there, I could see all the things that my mother loved, that she surrounded herself and her family. They had Persian rugs. They had Duncan Phyfe furniture [laughs]. And, and that's what I was raised with. And they had china, um, in a very proper setting. And we were not—she was not raised as an Indian family, per se, at that period of time. They were very affluent. They had—
[00:18:52.43]
My, my grandmother married a, a Massey. And my grandfather was—her grandfather, I should say, was affluent. And so, she—I lost my train of thought. She married—um, my grandmother married Massey, who was also of English and Scottish heritage. And he was a banker, a pharmacist, and he was from, um, Berwyn, Oklahoma, which is now called Gene Autry, but it was always called Berwyn as my mother was growing up there. And she went to OCW to prep school and high school. So, she left this area when she was in high school.
[00:19:49.43]
Now, my father was born in Wapanucka, and he was, um, a doctor's son and a full-blooded Choctaw. And he—I, I got the chose—story later. But, he was six years—Mother was five years old when her father died, and my father was six years old when his father died. And my grandmothers never remarried. And so, I was raised without grandfathers and real strong grandmother figures in our life.
[00:20:27.62]
And Dad remembers going out in Wapanucka where they lived with my father in a, in a little buggy with a horse-drawn and, um, with a doctor's bag to attend to the sick. And I, actually, have my grandfather's obituary from the paper. He—his name was Roach—Dr. Roach. And, and I have his obituary. And, um, my mother was named Ruby. Her mother was Jewel. And my father was named Diamond. And all of his brothers and sisters were named after stones. So, I have an Uncle Onyx, an Uncle Garnet.
[00:21:09.68]
And I had—he had four sisters, the oldest being Jewel. And then, Ruby, and Opal, and—um, I'm forgetting one of them. Jewel, and Ruby, and Opal, and—anyway. Then, Pearl was the last child. And [laughs] we always laughed, because, when she got old enough, she went to court and had her name changed to Emerald. So, my Aunt Emerald was the youngest one. And so, it was a large family.
[00:21:48.22]
And my grandmother, when her husband—well, I wouldn't—when my father was born, his father, um, is the one who delivered him. And he lifted him up and he said, "His eyes sparkle. They look like diamonds." And so, he, he says that's why his name was Diamond. But then, all the other children [laughs] were named after different people—stones, precious stones.
[00:22:18.19]
And then, she moved to—Grandmother Roach moved to Chickasha [OK] and wanted to be close to OCW because she wanted her girls to have a good education. She, she, herself, had graduated from Bacone [College]. And she was from Ind—and I'll, I'll tell you that story later. And, um—because my father never talked about his fam—family. My mother did. My mother had pictures. They talked about their family—the Chickasaws. And, um, we, we always knew we were Chickasaw, and we knew we were Choctaw. But, my father always said, "Oh, you don't want to know my, my family. They were all horse thieves. They were hung," you know, which isn't true I found out after he had passed.
[00:23:10.88]
So, um, they're a very interesting couple. They had three children. And you can see how far apart by the picture on the left. My sister was 20 years older than I was. She was, um, married before I was born. My brother is 10 years older. And then, there I am. I think I'm three years old at the time. And Bob is probably 12, and Lawanda—um, I don't know—22. Probably 22 years old. So, we were—they were a very extraordinary family. Diamond and Ruby planned their family out.
[00:23:54.32]
So, if you'll go to the next slide. [Slide: black and white photograph of a group sitting outdoors.] And this is just us. And we—Dad, my father, was an educational field agent. And, um, he first—well, he—I—he was a teacher. He got his degree from Central State University in Oklahoma, which is OCU [University of Central Oklahoma] now. And he, he was a very, um, outstanding athlete in football. And he, he was an All-American at Central. And got his teacher's certificate with Industrial Arts as a main focus. And coaching was very important.
[00:24:47.45]
And so he coached at Davenport and Fairfax [OK]. And, um, and my sister Lawanda was born when they lived in Oklahoma City. And my father, he, um, he—in high school—he had to quit high school and go to—because of the First World War—and go to work. And all the men had left, and there was the shortage of jobs. And he worked at a drugstore, and he delivered newspapers on a Harley Davidson [laughs] motorcycle very early.
[00:25:24.59]
And, of course, that was—he was born in 1902. So, that was, um—what—probably 1918. Was that when the war—I believe—ran [19] ‘17, '18, '19. And he didn't start back to college—I mean, he finished his high school when the war was over and went to college. So, he was a later student in college. And, um, he taught—he was in Davenport and Fairfax and coached there. But, it was during the [Great] Depression, and times are very hard. And so, um, he was—and it was then that my brother was born after he'd been teaching for a while. And he, he always said very it lucky that he was born.
[00:26:24.33]
Because Mother—rather than put a teacher and—for—on his birth certificate, he had put—she said he put an oil field worker when Bob was born. And, um, she said, "It's lucky he wasn't born the year before because he would have been grass cutter." He was cutting the grass for the county.
[00:26:46.92]
So, very hard times. And, a lot of times, he couldn't get paid because the schools didn't have money. And, um, he was looking for another job.
[00:26:57.64]
And my grandmother, who you see sitting on the bench, lived with us all my life. And she knew "Alfalfa" Bill Murray, a very famous governor for the state of Oklahoma. And she was raised in Tishomingo, where her mother had a rooming house close to the capital, where a lot of the, um, representatives came. So, she knew everybody political. And so, she took Dad to the White House—Mom and Dad to the White House—to see if "Alfalfa" Bill Murray could have any influence for finding him another job. And he wanted to go with the Bureau of Indian Affairs if he could get in with them. And Mother remembers that story, that while they're at the capital, she—"Alfafa" Bill Murray waltzed around with my grandmother. So, we have a lot of connections and a lot of fun times that we remember.
[00:28:08.73]
Then, when we were living in Montana—this was, this was in Washington State. I was three years old when we lived there. We were with—um—I'll, I'll go ahead with my story. So, Dad did get on with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And his first job was, um, in North Carolina, Snowbird, North Carolina, at a day school. And my sister was 10 years old at that time. My brother had just been born. He was six weeks old when they made the journey out there. And it was like heaven to them coming from the Dust Bowl period and Depression. And North, North Carolina was beautiful. They were in the [Great] Smoky Mountains. They had a beautiful school with streams around it. And they absolutely loved it there.
[00:29:04.90]
I have a book called Too Many Sheep. And, um, it was talking about some of the people in the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And the man who wrote it, he, he was on the Navajo, and that's why it was titled Too Many Sheep. But, he talked about my father in North Carolina being head of a school—a Choctaw Indian being head of a Cherokee school, and how he developed, um, the, the programs there.
[00:29:45.65]
He made sure they had the finest beef. He made sure they had the, the best pork. And he brought everything up to, uh, standards for the—for that school. And he taught—it was a day school, so he taught and was a principal, too. And, um, there was only three teachers there at that time, and he was one of them.
[00:30:18.83]
And my sister—because Indians were not allowed to go to public school in, in North Carolina at that time. my sister had to go to a boarding school, which was at Cherokee. And Dad was very upset that she was not allowed to stay home. And he went to Washington, DC, and petitioned. And my sister was the first Indian student to go to school in, uh, North Carolina. And it was in Robbinsville, North Carolina. And I—so, he was a remarkable man. And he really stood for, um, making Natives better. Wherever we went, it was to make it an easier life for them. From there, they went to—they were there, I think, six years, four years. They were there about five years, and he was transferred to Parker, Arizona, just the exact opposite of where, um, he—they had lived in North Carolina. It was dry, it was desert. It was hot. And they made the most of it.
[00:31:39.11]
He always loved horses. And he would get wild—they would break wild horses and have horses tame by that. And while they were in Parker, my sister was in high school there. And she was very exceptional. She graduated at 15 from high school because she would, um, skip grades. So, there—it was really just a remarkable life for them. They went from one extreme to another. And my sister started college at ASC at 15, and that was in Phoenix. And my brother, at that time, with six years old. He was going to school in, in, in Parker when they were sent to, um, South Dakota [laughs]. Again, from different environment completely. And they adapted to that.
[00:32:51.61]
And Bob loved—and we were Sisseton, South Dakota. My father was with the Sioux tribe. They were with the Colorado River Indian School in, in Parker. And then, there at, uh, Sisseton, they were with the Sioux Indians—the Rosebuds, I believe. And, um, my, my grandmother got a job at that time at Wahpeton [SD], which had an Indian school. And Dad was an educational field agent when I was born. So, that—it, it seems like they just went from one extreme to another, and they adapted. They loved life. They loved every place they lived. They talked about in, in, Siss—South Dakota how they would flood streets. There would be ice skating. There was sledding. And, um, they, they just enjoyed life.
[00:33:51.08]
And then, when I was three years old, they were—oh, I'm—one other thing. While, while we were there and I was born, it was during World War II. And my brother-in-law, who my sister had married, in, um—also went to—he was from Parker, and he went to A, uh, AOC. He got a job—well, he was—volunteered to go into the Army—Army, excuse me—the Navy, and he was a pilot. He was a—he learned how to fly while he was in high school. And so, my—um, and he had asked my parents if he could marry Lawanda. And she was not going to college at that time because she—um, they were new to the state, and they couldn't afford out of state.
[00:34:53.26]
So, he—they—he talked her into marrying him—or, my parents into letting them get married. He flew up, and he—they, they were married. I believe they crossed the border into Minnesota, and they were married there. And, um, he flew off with her the next day.
[00:35:15.77]
So, that was—[laughs] my sister left, left when I was three. We had never lived in the same house, at the same time. She left before I was born. And then, we lived there for three years. And, um, then, we were transferred to the Colville Agency in Oregon and—or Washington—Washington State—and lived there. We were near Grand Coulee Dam when I was three, four. He was only there a year, and he was, um, he was sent to Browning, Montana to the Cut Bank Boarding School and the Plains tribe, the Blackfeet tribe. So, I was—very early age, I was exposed to, uh, the Northern tribes, the Plains tribes.
[00:36:12.23]
And in, in, um, Montana, we had paintings on the wall that were done by the WPA. We, uh, we enjoyed art work in our homes. They were in our schools. The post office—there are still some left in po—Marietta [OK], I know, has a painting of Chickasaws making pashofa. And they would paint. And so, I, at that time, was ready for school. And I, I knew I wanted to be an artist. I don't, I don't know before. The first grade, I, I really knew that I wanted to be an artist. And Tommy Bellcalf [ph] was a natural artist. He could draw anything. And my head was close to his all the time. And the teacher warned my mother that I was—to watch for lice because I would probably have lice [laughs]. They couldn't keep me away from Tommy. And, sure enough, I was outcast from the family when I came home with lice in my hair. They had to treat me for that.
[00:37:36.19]
But, I was so fascinated by what he was drawing. And I was fascinating by the murals I was seeing on the walls. That is also the period of time that my brother took me in the woods, and mother thought he was taking care of me. And, um, I, I would just use my imagination. I was always—I feel like today children are entertained too much. They don't get enough time alone to just think, to be creative, to be alone, um, be out in the woods. And, and I think that period of time in Montana really set the direction and the tone for what I would grow up to be.
[00:38:23.79]
I knew I wanted to be an artist, and I knew I wanted to paint. And so, I worked at it. I mean, I worked, literally, learning how to draw. It didn't come naturally. I could draw anything—by the time I was the fourth or fifth grade, I could, I could, I could copy. I could copy anything, draw anything. And. um, I grew up being the class artist, finally. That—we had moved to Oklahoma in [19]50. And I was eight years old. And it—so, the third grade. And nobody there was drawing like they had been in Browning. And so, I really got to take over. The teachers let me paint the windows, you know. If there was a school play, I was doing the backdrops for that. If there was a paper that was being—um, I was doing the cartoons for the paper, and just taking art all, all the time.
[00:39:40.10]
But, we moved back to Oklahoma to Concho, Oklahoma and Cheyenne/Arapaho reservation, and there was a school there. And I, I really saw the other sides of boarding schools. I was, um, an employee's child. And I hear so many bad things, and I didn't see that.
[00:40:03.53]
My father—I, I know in Montana, especially—he would have events where the parents were brought in. They would, uh, dig a hole in the ground and put a beef in it. And, and he loved those kinds of things of, of going back to nature, of cooking like they did and have parents come in. And there would be big gatherings. And we had a, um, potluck every month, and it was in the gym most of the time. And he would always welcome parents and children in the community. And his—the other thing—I didn't realize all this at that time, but my father employed mixed racial faculty. He would have, uh, Asian, Filipinos, I remember in Montana, and Blacks and whites, along with Indians. And it just seemed like we were in integrated schools, very early on.
[00:41:18.18]
They were called "training schools" because the kids were—they had the bakery. The kids worked in the bakery. They had, um, a, a dairy. The children worked in the dairy. They had—they were taught all kinds of trade. They had mechanics. They had, um, things. But, the employees did too. We got milk. We were, literally, in Montana. And it was nice because we were isolated to what—we, we had our own dairies. And we—my brother and I would go get milk at the dairy. We had a dog [laughs], dog sled.
[00:42:00.60]
The Indians had malamutes—or I say the Indians—the Blackfeet children—their parents had malamutes, and they were trained for dog sleds. We had spaniels. And Bob trained, uh, our spaniels to pull our sled. And so, we'd take the sled and go get milk every day.
[00:42:21.48]
We had bakeries. That, I know, my father had baking contests. And he, he would be included in it. He could sew. He could—back when he was in, in high school and college, they taught, you know, Home Ec[onomics] to the boys, too. So, they would—he knew how to cook. He knew how to sew. He was just really an upstanding, um, person in the community. And we all—and I can remember the kids just hanging on him when they played. We all played on the playground together. And it's—
[00:43:01.32]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I don't mean to interrupt, but I just want to re—would you say again the name of that school?
[00:43:08.47]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Cut Bank. Cut Bank Boarding School. It's eight miles out of, uh, Browning, Montana. We were 12 miles from the entrance to Glacier National Park. So, we were always in the Park on picnics on summertime when it was pretty. And, of course, there was wildlife everywhere. The bears—my dad used to get so mad because people would feed the bears. And we were, we were scared of them [laughs]. So—and, and they were grizzly. And, um, I don't know. It was just some—probably the most wonderful upbringing. And it was just fabulous. I know there was a picture of me on my porch when we were—I was six years old. And—[cross talk].
[00:44:01.48]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Let me get back to that. I'll share—let me share that screen, so everybody can see that. [Slide: black and white photograph of a group sitting outdoors.] And we will, um—can you see the screen with the PowerPoint?
[00:44:12.93]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes.
[00:44:13.76]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Okay. [Cross talk.] So, is that the picture? [Slide: black and white photograph of a girl and a color photograph of a woman in front of a cabin.]
[00:44:17.22]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: When I was six years old, the, the cabin was there. At 56, I went back. I had not been there in 50 years, and, uh the cabin still lived—you know, was still there. They had had a terrific flood. Many of the buildings were gone, but our cabin was still there. And, um, you can see we, literally, lived in a log cabin, and it it was a [laughs] won—wonderful place to grow up. And so—
[00:44:53.37]
But, I—when Glenn and I—when I'm 56, we go back. We went to Many Glaciers [Hotel], um, in, um—which is a lodge, a large lodge. And, again, I saw so much influence on my parents from the way it was decorated, and from, um, the way—they had croquet out that—that you could play out on the grounds, and different things that I—that I realized Father took with him to Oklahoma.
[00:45:31.65]
Um, this house was decorated all in Stickley furniture and Navajo rugs [laughs]. It—they were not as valuable then as they are today. And, um, Mother, when she went to Oklahoma, took them all with her because they, they did that. And while she was there, sometime during the [19]50s, they changed—they no longer furnished the houses, and you got to keep what you had. She probably didn't take it. She, she probably left that, what was in the house in Montana, and it was decorated the same at Concho. And then, when they, uh, changed, she got to keep the Navajo rugs. I got only one of them. I was too young to, um, speak for it, but my sister wasn't.
[00:46:32.43]
She got the rugs [laughs]. She got most of the rugs. And she held on to them and took good care of them. And when she passed away, they, um, had a lottery. And the kids—grandkids all, all have the rugs now, and they love them. So, that's good. They—just so the things go to people who love them and family. And, um—
[00:47:00.33]
But anyway, Concho, it started changing. I was in upper grade school, and I love—still loved art, still taking art—you know, school art classes. And in junior high, I got, um, the best teacher in El Reno [OK] for an art teacher. And she, uh, she just did so many wonderful things, and really got me to painting more with, like, oils, where before it had been watercolors—a child's watercolor, temperas, or whatever. And, um, I really appreciated that.
[00:47:44.80]
And, and, then, when I was in the eighth grade, my father moved to—he was transferred to Cherokee country, and he was at Tahlequah, Oklahoma at Senca—Sequoia High School. And that's where I went to—I think, I was in ninth grade. And they had the ninth grade in junior high. But, anyway, I was there. And my art teacher at that time, I felt like was not, um, a great teacher. He copied everything. We had Arizona Highways magazines with pictures in them. We had to take that. He was really big into, uh, technical drawings. And so, he did a lot of technical drawings, and soap carvings, and things like that.
[00:48:45.25]
And I had him like for my nineth, tenth, eleventh, and my, my twelfth. Anyway, he was—had a job at the nursery. We had a big nursery in town. He had a job out there, too. And he would leave me in charge of the class and go out there [laughs].
[00:49:11.52]
So, I felt like my high school could have been better training for me. I was painting, um, and all. And I had enough credits to graduate after my junior year, and so I did that. And I would—I got married very young, at 17. And, uh, and Glenn was going to college, and he was, um, working at Safeway. And I would paint the windows of Safeway. And by this time, we had had one child, and we would put her in a basket and, [laughs] and roll her around. She went to sleep in a grocery basket. And then Glenn would wax the floors, and I would paint the windows at night.
[00:50:09.83]
And, um, if it was roundup days, I would paint, uh, a, a, a calf in one window, and then a man roping a—on a horse roping [laughs]. Because you've got these huge windows. And then, during deer season, we had deer. I'd have a hunter with a bow and arrow, you know, and a deer standing in one. So, I was doing that. I was selling paintings. Then, we had another child. And so, I have two baskets going with [laughs] children, and then, painting at night. So, I I wasn't going to college. I stayed home with my children, uh, while Glenn went to college and worked 40 hours a week at Safeway.
[00:51:00.17]
And I said, we, we ate steak because my father always, um, raised his own beef and butchered it, and then, had that. And then Glenn brought home old produce [laughs] from—so, we ate well. We ate very well during that time, you know, raising the children.
[00:51:21.74]
Then, when he graduated from, from college, we went to the Navajo. And, um, our children are, I believe, two and three at that time—two, three and four. Anyway, we went out the Navajo, which was wonderful, in that it was a different, um, environment. And Glenn was teaching fifth and six—fifth grade, I believe. And I would teach after school art classes. And the Navajos were so different from what we were—um, been raised in. The girls did not do anything but design work. They didn't do realistic things. And the boys are the ones that were the artists. If I set up a still life, they would paint the still life. If I set it up for the—a still life for the boys and girls, the girls would do borders, and they would do things around incorporating that.
[00:52:27.38]
So, I, I finally, with the girls, we started doing, um, house things. We would build things. We would build houses and put furniture in it and do—but, that was such a fun time to make, make up. And I started going to college out there. I went to Northern Arizona University—well, at that time, I don't not think it was a university or college—in Flagstaff. And we'd go two days a week.
[00:52:57.47]
There were four of us that were going to college—two boys and—two, two men and two women. And our spouses were teaching at the school or, or were in—a girls advisor. I know Helen Sue was a girl's advisor. And we went to college there. And, um, we would each be responsible for driving car one week, and then, the next one, then—because it was 48 miles into Flagstaff, which was our main town for groceries. So, we didn't go for groceries a lot.
[00:53:35.17]
And, um, we—my, my family—my sister had moved back. After the war, they moved back and settled in Yuma [AZ]. And he had a crop dusting. And I had a nephew in Phoenix who was going to law school or—yeah, at that period of time. And so, I felt like I had family there. It was a little bit of a drive, but it was—Arizona was family. So, uh, we did enjoy that part of it, getting to see them quite a bit and living there. [Cross talk.]
[00:54:17.98]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Can I ask a quick question to make a couple of connections here?
[00:54:21.76]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes.
[00:54:22.88]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: So, from what you're saying, your husband began to travel. I mean, he began to work in schools, much like your dad did. Is that correct?
[00:54:35.05]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Big influence. My father was a huge influence. My husband was raised by his father. His mother left when he was two. And, um, then, he left home when he was 12 and lived with other families. He was living with a family while, while we were in high school when I met him.
[00:54:56.32]
And so, my father became the father figure for him. And, um, he just thought the world of my father, and my mother, too. And, and my mother taught him how to play golf. My mother—she, she loved to fish. Glenn would take her fishing. And so, it was the first time he had had family, per se. And in—so, he really, really loved him and did emulate him in going into Indian schools, uh, like that. So, it, it was a very powerful influence on him. Yeah.
[00:55:41.44]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Well, this is so fascinating. Because, um, tribal life is community life. It's family life. [Cross talk.] And I, I love that you're describing how important the influence of your family has been on you, and, you know, even your exposure to other tribal, you know, communities, such as when you were young, and then later.
[00:56:09.25]
And then, now, you and Glenn are—you know, he's, he's teaching in a school in Arizona. And so, your influences are really becoming integrated in terms of understanding the distinction of tribal ways in, you know, in, different nations and—[cross talk.]
[00:56:31.60]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Different communities.
[00:56:32.38]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Every community is different. I'd like to continue this discussion on family with you. I think we'll take a quick break. And then, we'll come back and continue to, um, to learn more about the other communities that you went to, your education, and, and even how your family legacy has—we'll—I want to talk about your grandmother and your mother's influence on you as an artist, as well. And then, how that has been passed on to your grandchildren. It's fascinating [cross talk]. And so, we'll take a quick break, and then we'll come back and we'll discuss that.
[00:57:16.83]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Okay. That's fine.
[END OF TRACK AAA_wheele22_4of7_digvid_m.]
[00:00:02.98]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: This is Laura Marshall Clark, and, um, I am interviewing Margaret Roach Wheeler in her home in Sulphur, Oklahoma. The date is October 23, 2022, and this is card four. Hello, again, Margaret [laughs].
[00:00:22.41]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Hello.
[00:00:24.11]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I'm glad to learn more about your family, and so, we're going to continue our discussion about family legacy and how you, uh, became so creative. I mean, you've already told us a lot about your influences and your, your start in your artistic journey. But, we'd like to go back and talk about, um, family members that were so important for your formation as an artist.
[00:00:56.62]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Okay. [Cross talk.]
[00:00:58.66]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I'm going to share a screen with images that you provided. And I'll let you just begin your discussion there. Is that okay?
[00:01:07.36]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Okay [slide: two photographs of an older woman and a baby]. You're seeing my grandmother in the black and white photo. Her name was Juel Massey, and she lived with us all my life. She was from Berwyn, Oklahoma, originally Tishomingo. And, um, she lost all of her wealth in the crash of the stock market and became dependent on my parents, at that point of time, which they were fine with.
[00:01:49.85]
My father adored her. And she always lived with us. Um, one time, she was a matron in Wahpeton in South Dakota. But, the rest of the time, she was with us. She would visit other family members. She'd visit her son, she'd visit my sister LaWanda. But, most of the time, she was with us. She had a large trunk. And, um, in that trunk were photos of her life. And I know—I, I did a book. I hadn't really planned to talk about it.
[00:02:31.21]
But, it, it was a lecture that I did in, um—for the Arizona Federation of Weavers. They called and wanted me to speak. And I said, said "yes" immediately. And then—I, generally, speak with slides. And they said, "Well, we're going to have you talk for 45 minutes and no slides." And I thought, "Oh, my goodness. I'd already said 'yes,'" and they were going to Arizona, which was my—Tucson, Arizona, which, um, my sister, and I had a niece living there. So, this is what I came up with, a, a, a story about my grandmother's trunk and how important that was to me.
[00:03:26.07]
But, I, I want to say that the whole story was about the history of cotton through Native American eyes, of a boll weevil that I found in my grandmother's trunk. And, um, we'll have to get in that another time. But, that—grandmother's trunk was just a mystery to me, always excitement, pictures. And she was my babysitter. My parents were very social. And the trunk was kept, usually, in a basement, and we would go down to the basement and open the trunk. And those adventures would start.
[00:04:12.49]
And there were pictures of here, in Sulphur, Oklahoma, where I lived today, of Little Niagara, um, Turner Falls—pictures there—family pictures. And that trunk played a very important part of my life because I, you know, I wrote about it in the story. And I always bring it—and I, I still have a trunk to this day—not the exact trunk, but it's one that my son gave me that is like her trunk. So, that trunk was very important to me. Her stories were important to me. And, uh, that was my grandmother Massey.
[00:04:56.65]
And then, my mother, Ruby, on the right, is holding my, my grandson. It's her great-grandson. She was amazing. She was a woman that never worked outside of the house. She was a housewife, and that was a profession. Our houses were presented beautifully. She, uh, had Duncan Feit furniture. She loved the color mauve, which is behind her. She even painted a, um—spray painted a Christmas tree mauve one year to go in her mauve living room.
[00:05:36.22]
She was always working at things. Both my grandmother and mother were seamstresses. They were crocheters. They were knitters, embroider—beautiful embroidery work from my grandmother. And, um, so, threads were very important in our house. Mother even painted on curtains. She would do themes, have man—many dinner parties. They were presented beautifully. She had fine china. She had Haviland china where every place setting was a different tiny flower. Um, she took great pride in her Victorian antiques. And, come down to her, her dress, she always had to have things coordinated. She—if she wore, like, a red purse, if she carried it, she had shoes to match that. She had gloves. And we're talking about the [19]50s and '60s, where women wore hats and wore gloves and dressed. She had, uh, very tailored suits that were wonderful. One of the hardest things that I had, after she died, was getting rid of her wardrobe. She was so proud of it.
[00:07:04.27]
And I, I know, I moved her one time into the house—that scene in the picture—from their farmhouse. And, uh, I was trying to pare down her shoes. She had so many shoes. And I'd take them to her. "Oh, I can't get rid of those. Oh, I can't get rid of those." I—She was the Imelda Marcos of, of shoes. I, I just could never get over how she loved her shoes. She would dress.
[00:07:38.09]
If she—she planned everything ahead of time. She would have her clothes laid out that she was going to wear the next day if she was going to a party. And, if it rained that day, and she had something light laid out, she would have to change it to the appropriate dark clothing for the rain. Um, I've never seen anybody that took that much care about their upkeep of their house, the food—our food was presented beautifully. She was an artist, as a housewife. I said "the art of housewifery."
[00:08:14.17]
I was trained to be a housewife. I have housewifery skills, which I rebelled against the min—minute I moved out of the house. But, probably, a great influence. I said, when I sat down at the loom, it felt so like home because I was working with threads. And what I love about a loom, it keeps your threads straight. They tried to teach me to crochet, my grandmother did. And my lines were all out of order. I know, I did—I did my daughter, before she was born, a little sweater. And one side of the sweater was longer than the other side—I mean, by two inches—and the other side—I could not keep things straight. When I found the loom, it kept everything in order for me.
[00:09:10.39]
And I could work with threads, like they did, and, uh, have the expertise to, to do that. So, these ladies were a great influence on my life. And both of them, very caring. My grandmother was a little harsh. One of the pieces that I have, I, uh, have dedicated to her. And I'll talk about that when we come to it. But, they were always—and my grandmother lived to be 79.
[00:09:45.25]
Um, she lived in our home, always. And Mother always—knew I knew how to change a bed sheet, put a bedpan on all because she had a stroke when I was 10 years old. And I was with her, alone, at that time, and, uh—to get help and everything, and she was paralyzed. And so, I learned how to quickly manage to take care of a bed patient. And we had her, always, in our home until she passed away. She, um—she—well, let—when we moved into this one house, she was on the, the sun porch. It was a long sun porch, and Mother put up white, sheer curtains up all the way around. And my nephews thought that was heaven when those curtains would glow, they'd—when they'd come to see the great grandmother, they [laughs] would walk into the room, and they both thought it was heaven to be there. So, uh, she was very influential in my life and my stories, and my mother was also. And so, that was my early influence by women in my home. And next slide [slide: color photograph of two women sitting in an art studio].
[00:11:14.18]
And, um, let me—I want to talk about my daughter a little bit. I was in college at this time, and I was working on, uh, pieces. And we were—I was in a show. And I was doing scratch board and had some paintings up and all. And my daughter was with me. And so, uh, you can see her.
[00:11:37.37]
She passed away at 16, in a car accident. I say that she lived more life in 16 years than my mother did in 94. She was always a beautiful, positive influence on anybody she was around. She, um—anything she wanted, she went for and achieved that goal. Uh, she—here, she is in a three-piece suit, which she'd just come back from modeling, uh, in, in a mall. And I was working. And she sat down with me for a minute. But, she got into modeling. It—well, she got into it, and she won for Joplin, Missouri, where we lived at the moment, she won for the state of Missouri.
[00:12:36.50]
And she wound up in, um, Houston, Texas, with Monty Hall as the, the, uh, the emcee. And she—it was a beauty pageant which had a talent, like, just like regular—you had to have all the, the interview, the talent, the walking, the swimsuit, and, and things. And she, she did great. And I got to make her costumes, to sew all of her things for that. Glenn and I didn't agree with beauty pageants, and I was really afraid it was going to change her. And, after we got through in Houston—she was 14 years old then—she said, "I never want to do that again." And we went, "Whoa," [laughs]. It was so good because we had let her do it. Um, she was an excellent dancer.
[00:13:35.93]
And, at that time, they call it acrobat. And, and so, she really learned more from that experience and never wanted to repeat it. She was an exceptional child. She—and, like I said, she lived more in her 16 years than my mother did in her 94. So, that—the, the next slide [slide: photograph of three women in colorful dress].
[00:14:01.37]
This, this is a piece that I did that was called Tribute to Ruby. Um, she lived to be 94. She was, um—I had done a piece for my father as a tribute. And she said, "You're going to do something for me, aren't you, when I die?" And I said, "Well, I may do that." And she said, "I want to approve of it before I'm gone." And, and she was 93 or 94 at that time. So, I said, "Okay, okay." And I thought about my mother, what, what she gave us as a family. And she was like a butterfly. She presented herself beautifully. So, I decided to do butterflies.
[00:14:53.78]
At that time, I had lost a sister and a daughter. And Mother was still, still living while I was designing it. And, um, I designed three butterflies that had been the three butterflies of my life. And I made my sister purple, the regal color. And the opposite of that is yellow, so I wanted a contrast. My mother was Ruby. So, of course, she was the ruby red. And my daughter was a blue because that was—I got the emotional response from blues and rusts together. So, um, I figured it out my combination—color combination for the three pieces. And, when I put them on the loom, this is a double weave, so you weave two fabrics as one.
[00:15:43.49]
You weave the top is a twill. I can make the top of the cloth be a solid color, and then, the pattern underneath. And I looked at butterflies. I had all kinds of drawings, and I created a, um—it's an overshot pattern in a flower motif that's almost like a butterfly for the inside of the, um, the shells—the wings. And we had to design costumes.
[00:16:15.86]
I was taking a trip to China, at that time, I was going to make this outfit. And so, I—we, we went to Thailand. And so, in Thailand, I got the, the silk dresses made. Well, that was such an experience. We went in the morning, and, um, I told them I wanted three sheath dresses, different necklines. And, um, they made them in a size eight, and, um, it probably should have been a size six. But, anyway, they delivered to my motel—hotel that night. It's really quite amazing. You get to pick the fabric, tell them how to make it, and, uh, they make it that day. And then, it is a silk wool that I wove them out. This piece took me six months to create. And, um, during that time, my mother did pass away.
[00:17:18.44]
And so, I had my Tribute to Diamond—I mean, Tribute to Ruby, LaWanda, and Chris. And, we—it was going to a show in Atlanta [GA], and it was shown there. So, the headdresses are—um, when—if you see prints of an Indian apprentice contest, they have this style of headdresses.
[00:17:47.44]
And so, anyway, I wanted to do that. And I've got a butterfly that's beaded on the top of each one. So, that was my Tribute to Ruby. I wanted to have a special thing, and it's her butterfly.
[00:18:03.55]
And she—I had the drawings done. And, um, she could see what it was going to be, and she had approved. She approved it before she passed away, so I was very pleased with that.
[00:18:17.56]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: These are really stunning, Margaret. They're gorgeous. And—[cross talk].
[00:18:22.18]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Thank you.
[00:18:22.39]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: And did you actually do the beading, as well?
[00:18:26.41]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes, I do beading on a lot of my piece—important pieces.
[00:18:41.65]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes. But anyway, that was—there were all big butterflies matching the color of the dress. And I had—I, I used the colors and things to plan them to have the full width. I put a casing in the edge, so they go beyond the arm, and they have a black, um, black jacket that is designed to fit across it, and then this black arm, and they wore black gloves. And you can extend the wing beyond. I put rods out there. Um, so, it was—it was a fun thing to design and come up with the ideas for.
[00:19:30.52]
And, um, they're quite, quite spectacular when they're on. And in Atlanta, the way they were shown, I, I—it was with "Convergence," which is an international weaving conference. And they put a Dixieland song to them, and I didn't necessarily—I wanted something softer and more romantic, and—because you can wave them like a butterfly when you're, you're coming down the runway. So, [cross talk].
[00:20:01.50]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Those are just phenomenal. I, I had heard the story, briefly, before. But, I guess, just staring at the pieces, it, it, it has a huge impact. Where are these pieces now?
[00:20:17.13]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: They're in my closet [laughs].
[00:20:19.48]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Oh, my goodness [they laugh]. I have—
[00:20:21.24]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: My closet of, of many colors [laughs]. [Cross talk.]
[00:20:24.97]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Oh, my goodness. They're just gorgeous. Thank you for sharing this.
[00:20:29.41]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes. Well, I thought I would—it should go with Ruby when I was talking about her. And then, uh, it's A Tribute to Diamond, the next thing [slide: two photographs of a white blanketed man]. We'll talk about this. He, he died before Mother did. He was 91, and he died in [19]93. My mother died in [19]97—well, 1997. And he died in 1993. And, um, he was 91 years old.
[00:21:04.48]
And I had been to a conference in which another fiber artist had made a dedication to her father and, um, did—created a piece. And I came home from that con—conference, and my father was, I knew, dying. And I I thought, "I want to do something really special for him as a tribute." And I had—up on my wall, I had this postcard. And, um, it's, it's [Edward S.] a Curtis photograph of a Cheyenne man wrapped in a blanket, and all that is showing is eyes.
[00:21:46.19]
And that was the idea to do for A Tribute to Diamond. But, I know—and, and this was done for a show in Minneapolis [MN], a runway show. I know that you can—if I sent a blanket, it would never be presented correctly. You have to—like with Ruby, you have to make the garment so that it, um, will appear on stage like you want it to.
[00:22:15.74]
So, I, I did the large—my, my loom is a very large loom. It was a, uh, 12-harness J-made walnut loom of 72 inches, so I could weave a cloth 65—let's see. Yeah, I kept it at 65 [inches], rather than 72 [inches]. I could go the full length, and then, it had a fly shuttle. And, um, I used that.
[00:22:48.30]
But, in designing this, I wanted to do this blanket out of silk wool. And, uh, my father, times in his life are shady. He didn't always share everything with us, and—but he was dedicated to family. And my mother always said, "I feel like a big fat cat that is just petted all the time." And, uh—but, early in their life during the Depression years, my father disappeared for—he took Mother and made sure she was safe with family and spent nights—said, "I'm going to be gone for a little while, and I'll be back." And he, uh, left. She wasn't sure where he was at that time. And when he came back, he was very bruised and, um, beaten. And she always worried about it, but he would never tell where he was. And when I saw a movie one time, the Fight Club, I imagined—maybe it wasn't the Fight Club but was another one, um, about the Depression.
[00:24:06.05]
And I decided I had figured out where my father went at that time. And his brother wound up being a boxer for, um, Archie Griffin—a manager for him and was very interested. And I would bet anything in the world that he went with his brothers and fought bare-fisted, uh, during the Depression, during that period of time. And when he came back, he had money. So, I—there's just things we do not know. He also told us, he'd say, "Oh, I don't know anything about my mother and father. They—I, I don't know anything about my heritage," did his mother and father, by my grandparents. Um, "Don't know, she was an orphan. And they were probably all horse thieves." So, we didn't know anything about his background.
[00:25:10.88]
Well, I wanted to show those early years were dark. And so, I start out at the bottom with black yarn fading to white. But, as he got older, he became so much more than that. And I figured he was a pillar of strength in, in our family, and that's what I wanted to try—and community—I wanted to try to express. And I had to make the hood as a separate piece that comes over the head. It's attached in, in the back, and it comes over the head, but it is like a hood. And someone said that that it reminded them of a Muslim, um, garment.
[00:25:51.93]
And I got to thinking, my father was a male chauvinist, in a way, a loving way. He never wanted mother to work outside the family. He wanted to do everything for her. She couldn't pump gas. She couldn't, um, get up on step ladders. He wanted to do that for her. He put her on a pedestal and literally worshipped her. And so, that also is part of this piece. But, when you open up those arms, it's got little cuffs that your hands fit into and open up. It shows all the beauty inside. On the next slide, that'll show that [slide: two color photographs of a hanging garment in a gallery space]. Yeah.
[00:26:37.10]
I show him in a one-woman show, which is called A Tribute to the Mandans. And I hang him at, at the back of it with his arms outstretched. So, you can see that—how I wanted it to be, all color was inside. And I had heard, um, Charles Loloma say, in a talk one time that, he had a friend that was so beautiful. He was just plain on the outside. And it was a domed silver bracelet that, when you look at it, it was just domed silver. But, when you took it off, you showed all the beauty inside. And it was mother of pearl, and, uh, coral, and turquoise, onyx, all inlaid inside the bracelet that was never seen outside.
[00:27:34.86]
So, that was the concept I was going for when I created this piece, A Tribute to Diamond. And in, in the show it's in, these are the spirits of Mandan, Hidatsa. And they're life-sized drawings. And so, it—he, he's in that show, exhibit [slide: graphic and image of a multi-colored weaving].
[00:28:00.22]
I was called last November that the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City was interested in Tribute to Diamond. And, um, they picked the piece up in January, and the show opened, I believe, in April. And I, I had the stroke in May, early May. We were planning to go in June to see the show.
[00:28:33.99]
That was the carrot that was out in front of me [The Met –MRW], that I would walk [laughs], and I would get to that show. I got there one week before it ended and got to see it. And it was absolutely wonderful. But there, you can really see all the beauty that's inside. They chose not to show the hood. It's hanging off the back. And this is all made out of sp—uh, Jagger Spun silk wool. It's almost like a cashmere when it's woven. And, um, this tells about it being a tribute to my father.
[00:29:16.50]
[Slide: two images of three figures posing around a museum] And, when we went to the show, my son—there's another funny story—well, not funny. It's very touching story. I was showing the piece in Saint Louis [MO], um, in, in a museum. And Wade—this is my son, Diamond Wade. And he came to me and said, um, "You're selling Tribute to Diamond." And I said, "Well, all my work is for sale." And he said, "Oh, okay." And unbeknownst to me, he went to the museum and bought the piece or went to the art center and bought the piece. And, uh, he owns Tribute to Diamond.
[00:30:02.31]
And so, I called him to get permission to show the piece at The Metropolitan. And he said, "Only if I can go." And so, it was in [In] America: [An] Anthology of Fashion. And it was probably a highlight, if they had chosen any other piece, it wouldn't have meant as much. Because of my son owning it, it was a part of our family. And so, it was really a special day.
[00:30:32.91]
And then, this is my great-, great- niece. She was there the first day it opened. She's 13 years old. And my great-niece took her to New York for her thirteenth birthday. And I—when I said—told them that I was going to be in that show, they were so excited. So, they got to see it the first week it went up. I got to see it the last week it was up [laughs]. So, it's been seen by the family. The other thing is that I—my Chickasaw Academy students, three of them got to see the piece. Um, Rachel Atkins wrote me, and she had seen it. And, uh, Jay saw it and, also, Ryanne Jordan. And I had planned—she said she was going at the end of August, and I planned to go. We missed each other by one day [cross talk]. She saw it the day before I did. And so, that meant a lot.
[00:31:41.51]
And I have friends in Joplin, where I used to live. They were there, and they saw it. So, I—it was just really a wonderful, wonderful experience, to be shown at The Met. I felt like it was, probably, the highlight of my career, um, in weaving.
[00:32:02.65]
But, I have shown in New York at the Museum of, of Design, and, uh, I have shown at the Peabody. So, I've shown in big museums, but The Met was probably—I had always taken my students to the Costume Institute. And it's a place that I loved and never dreamed that I would be in. So, it was exceptionally gratifying to me.
[00:32:30.85]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: It's just stunning. And, the fact that your family could all be involved, and even the Arts Academy students because—I mean, I know the names you named. Jay Fife was the one that you were mentioning. And then, all of those students, you took them on trips [cross talk] after the Academy in New York City, didn't you?
[00:32:55.24]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes. I'll talk about it and show pictures of it when we get into that segment, the Chickasaws Times [slide: three photographs of children around a loom]. So, yeah, it was really wonderful. Wow.
[00:33:07.93]
Then, I, I wanted to put in my grandchildren. They would go with me. The only show that they were able to make with me was at the Eiteljorg Indian Market. Um, both girls went one at a time. But, this, this is my youngest grandchild, Andrea. And, uh, she's the one that went three or four years. And she—they learned to weave when they come visit me. And I have the—this little loom. It's a little Macomber eight-harness, and they would weave on it. And, uh, you can see they're weaving where she's got her thumbs up. She'd finish the weaving.
[00:33:54.70]
But, what I really enjoyed was her interaction with the children. They would come up and, and ask her. I've got three or four photos. I chose this little girl. But, she always had children around her, and she would really talk to them and work with them. And one of the best stories—when she was 10 years old—was she 10? She was 10 years old—nine? Anyway, she was weaving. And, uh, this lady came up to her, and she said, "My goodness. How long have you been weaving?" And she said, "Oh, eight, eight, eight years." And she said, "Eight years? My goodness. How old are you?" She said, "10 years old."
[00:34:39.37]
But, Andrea is the one that I put on me beside the loom, and she was in her infant seat in—beside me. When, when she was born, I've got a [laughs]—I've got a picture—I've got an art piece that I did of the good grandmother and the bad grandmother. And the good grandmother was my two older, um, grandchildren.
[00:35:04.63]
I was just sort of starting out in the business, and I wasn't real busy yet. And when they would come, we would take the weeks with them, um, give them cameras, and they'd document their week, and we'd make it into the book. Sewing—I had all kinds of stuff to do and always lots of activities with them.
[00:35:25.06]
But, when Andrea came along, I was really busy, and I didn't have the time. So, I was always sitting here at the loom. I, I had a little easel that we put at the end of the loom where she would paint. I, you know, always—so, she took to it. She really took to it. Here you can see it taking off. And then, what was wonderful—the people at the Eiteljorg could see her working, knew she was weaving. And the next year, we'd come back, it'd be made into something, and she would win [slide: photograph of a hanging woven garment].
[00:36:01.18]
She won first place, I think, for three years at the Eiteljorg and in the, in the, um, student art show. But, they actually knew she was doing the work because she was there doing it—weaving—while it was going on. So, I just am very, very proud that they know how to weave.
[00:36:26.86]
But, um, I'm leaving next Wednesday and going to Arlington, Virginia to see her. She's receiving her psych—she's going to be a Doctor of Clinical Psychology—degree. We're going to Georgetown University to—for her ceremony. And I'm just very, very proud of her that she's gone to school forever. She's gone through school—this has been five years beyond her college. She had nine years of college, and—but she'll be Dr. Wheeler next Thursday.
[00:37:03.89]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Wow.
[00:37:04.13]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: So, that's cool. Yeah.
[00:37:06.73]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: That's quite a legacy, Margaret.
[00:37:09.28]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: I know.
[00:37:09.69]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: That's huge [cross talk] It's moving to me, very moving.
[00:37:11.67]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: But, will she, will she weave? [They laugh.]
[00:37:16.33]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Well, she said she might be weaving other, other elements of life together [laughs]. [Cross talk.] But, who knows how that's impacted her. And, you know, even arts, if you think about it, all the, all the—not just the beauty and the act of making and all that, but it's such a development for critical thinking skills and, um, use of right brain and left brain and how your, your, your hemispheres of your brain communicate. It really increases our intelligence, don't you think?
[00:37:53.14]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: [Cross talk.] Yeah. Well, she's very bright. She's very bright [laughs] [slide: photograph of black and white text with an arrow and Spider-Man graphic]. But, so are my other two grandchildren. Only, they've gone in different directions. This is Diamond Max. I didn't say that about—there are four Diamonds in our family—my father Diamond, my son Diamond Wade, then, there's Diamond Max, my grandson, who's just—well, he's seven months old—Diamond Cannon is seven months old; so the Diamond, um, has carried on a legacy within our family.
[00:38:28.82]
One thing—I was—last week in—I was in Durant, Oklahoma, with the Choctaw tribe and didn't realize diamonds are very important in the Choctaw, in their motifs that they use. And, um, my father is Choctaw. So, that also is something that meant a lot to me. But, Diamond Wheeler—he, um—all three grandchildren came to the Chickasaw internships. And he came and, uh, doing video special effects. And he came, after his freshman year of college, for a summer internship. They hired him back after his junior year—and sophomore year and junior year, they would hire him for the summer to work on their special effects.
[00:39:29.25]
And he—then, they hired him as, um, a special effects in a multimedia department when he graduated from college. So, the Chickasaws have really invested a lot in Diamond. And he, he had a four-month, um, internship in Portland, Oregon, with a company, and they gave him time off, four months and come back.
[00:39:59.82]
And then, he was back here working, and he got an offer in Montreal [Canada] to work for this company, and he took that. And, uh, he's worked on many, many feature films. He is in—he has worked the special effects or visual effects in, um, the Harry Potter new series that's just come out. He's—Spider-Man, of course, as you see here. They've done a Peter Pan that's coming out. And then, it—he did all of the night bombing scenes in the Winston Churchill movie and many more things. He doesn't always tell me what all he's working on. But, he's now moved up.
[00:40:46.08]
But, there you can see one of his credits. And, um—"Diamond Wheeler," that's another Diamond. The thing that he did, too, is when he was at home called Max—"it's Diamond Max," so he was called by his middle name, as was our son. And, um, when he came down to start his internship, he—when he left that first time, I said, "Well, how did Max do?" And they said, "Max?" Um, that—I knew the people in multimedia. And I, I said, "Max Wheeler." And they said, "Oh, you mean Diamond Wheeler?" And I realized he had changed his name to Diamond—or not changed it, but he's using his first name. So, that meant so much to us as a family. And, uh, and he lives in Montreal with his family now. And so—and then, Paige, she is very creative [slide: two photographs of beaded jewelry]. And her degree was journalism marketing. And, um, she—when we went to her graduation from the University—both, both of those children graduated from University of Missouri. Um, I was so—she was, she was an honors graduate, and we went to that.
[00:42:11.12]
And I was just so impressed with what she had learned and the people that she had associated with. And that's been, oh, gosh, it's been probably five or six years ago. And she's worked for different companies. And, and it's mostly marketing, and, and, uh—online marketing, and pamphlet marketing, and all. And now, she's—I don't quite understand the job she's doing. She's working for a company that's 20 minutes away from my granddaughter in, uh, Arlington, Missouri. And she lives in Saint Louis. Everything is online. But, just this year, she had started doing these beaded bracelets.
[00:43:00.81]
And she calls her stuff “High-Strung Beads.” I am amazed at her marketing skills, which is an art form in itself, and in these bracelets she creates. She has, uh, designed—she figures out the design, beads them, and puts them together. This is mine, the black. And she featured the diamonds on that as part of—and talked, talked, about her great-, great-grandfather and her father, her brother, and then, her nephew. And so, she created one with diamonds.
[00:43:44.70]
And so, I'm seeing all of this just coming about full scale with her this year. It's just thrilling to me to see them doing something that's, uh, art- wise. And I think this will probably lead to something [cross talk] else. But, I don't think she'll give up her marketing job [they laugh].
[00:44:07.59]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Well, if she's anything like you, she'll be doing a lot of things, all at once [laughs].
[00:44:13.53]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: All at once, all at once, yeah. [Cross talk.]
[00:44:15.75]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: So, that's really beautiful. It was fun to see your family and how the creativity is, is, is continuing. And then, just their success, Margaret.
[00:44:27.75]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yeah, yeah, I'm very, very happy for them and pleased. You know. And Paige has a child, too, so she's, she's a good mother. It's just lots of fun, lots of wonderful things. So—[cross talk].
[00:44:50.88]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: So, this has, this has been a great segment, as well. It's been, uh, wonderful to couple it with our—your first description about your family and your history and all that. Um, I'm going to go ahead and suggest that we begin to talk about your development of your, your art in college, and then, directly afterwards. You have so much more to share with us about your, your career. And so, we're going to start that in the next segment.
[00:45:30.18]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Okay, okay. So, [cross talk] this will end my second family segment. You went all the way from, um French Nancy and the [cross talk] [inaudible] up to today [laughs].
[00:45:42.63]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I did want to ask you about your weaving of French Nancy. Um, I don't know why I thought that was petit point.
[00:45:50.97]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: No. That's that miniature weaving—I put a warp into the—well, I'm looking at it right up above me. I put a warp, um, on fabric, and then, I weave into it. And it's little. I can show you. Here, I have it.
[00:46:06.36]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: That would be great. I'd love to see it, so everyone could see the scale of how, how small it is and what an intricate, uh, weaving it is. Yes, it's amazing.
[00:46:19.62]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: So [holding artwork to camera] it, it has a—well, let's get the light on it. It has a warp and a weft, and it's done more in tapestry. So, yeah.
[00:46:32.62]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: That's it. It does look—it is tapestry, and that's why I thought it was petit point. So, that's beautiful. Just the, the actual work just is so much more impactful than just us having a photo. Thank you for showing us that.
[00:46:50.62]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yeah. You can see her little—and her little legs stick out, too.
[00:46:55.78]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Yeah [they laugh] Yeah, they're three-D[imensional], aren't they?
[00:46:59.72]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yeah. [Cross talk].
[00:47:01.54]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: That's wonderful.
[00:47:02.77]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: My family has always been a part of my art. Um, the Tribute to Diamond, Tribute to Ruby, this one, The Story of Mahota, they are all very important to me, and I hope I get that across in the segment we've just done.
[00:47:21.67]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Yeah, it's been great. Thank you very much.
[00:47:24.61]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes.
[END OF TRACK AAA_wheele22_5of7_digvid_m.]
[00:00:03.10]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: This is Laura Marshall Clark, and I am interviewing Margaret Roach Wheeler in her home in Sulphur, Oklahoma. It is October 24, 2022. And this is card five. And, uh, good morning, Margaret [cross talk]. I'm so glad to see you [laughs].
[00:00:24.91]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Good morning.
[00:00:26.72]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: We have a good session planned this time. And, I, uh—I'm just going to let you talk about your education, and strong influences, and mentorship, and that, and then we'll go from there.
[00:00:42.84]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: That sounds wonderful. Um, I, I think I went to five different colleges in a period of over 10 years to get my degree—undergraduate degree. I picked it up wherever we lived at the time, I would take courses in the local university or college. And [clears throat], I, I finished my bachelor's degree in, um, Joplin, Missouri, at Missouri Southern, at that time, College.
[00:01:15.10]
So, it was a good education doing mostly—I think my favorite things were sculpture there. I'd always been a painter and drawing. And, um, I really fell into sculpture. And for, for my graduate show, I—it was mostly sculpture and painting. And I, I tried all different kinds of sculpture.
[00:01:42.79]
But, um, the last piece I did even won an award at Philbrook International Indian Art Show. So, I felt like that was the—I was going to do is welded sculpture. I fell in love with its acetylene torch and, and being able to sculpt out of hard materials. And so, I finished my degree. And my student teaching—I realized my junior year, you can make art, but it's not going to make money for you. In the beginning, it won't, anyway. And so, I thought I needed something more substantial.
[00:02:24.41]
So, I got a teacher certificate along with the art. And I did my student teaching at Parkwood High School in Joplin. They had two high schools at that time. I feel like I'm so blessed that I'm put in the right place, at the right time, for influences because my student teaching, it was in ceramics, which was not one of my fortes, but I was all right at it. And I was with three men teachers at that high school, and they were exceptional. They had different courses that they taught. I was in the ceramics course.
[00:03:15.12]
At the end of my experience as a student teacher, they said, "We're really overcrowded. We've got so many students. Will you go with us to the principal and see if they can hire you to come in next year?" And I said, "Well, of course [laughs]." I was thrilled. And so, I went in, and they suggested that I take their overflow of students. They didn't take freshmen. They could only take sophomore, junior, seniors in their course, and they were still crowded. So, they said, "You come in in the morning and observe each of us."
[00:04:00.97]
So, I would observe Roger Buchanan, the painting teacher. And from him, I learned dis—how to discipline. And he was a superior, uh, teacher. He really was. And the artwork the students produced was the best [laughs]. It was—we were more like a college than a high school. And I learned to discipline through humor. Um, Roger—if a class was starting to get unruly or something, he'd just stay real quiet. And then he'd get up against the wall real flat, and he'd start moving. Pretty soon, the class just calmed down, and they were watching him. And then, he had control again. And, and it was through that I learned so much.
[00:04:49.37]
I would, then, go to the sculpture class, and they did mostly wood sculpture. It was really interesting. And, again, the kids were excelling. They were doing carved doors, [laughs] carv—carving wood, and just wonderful things.
[00:05:07.27]
And there, I, I I learned how to, you know, utilize what I had available, that teacher was, Dennis Hudson—he was six [foot] eight [inches] and just remarkable. And he—by his size, he controlled the students. It was, it was a wonderful experience being in his class, also.
[00:05:43.41]
And then, I would go to the next class, ceramics, which I had already as a student teacher, and that was good. I would sim—emulate their classes in the afternoon. What I observed in the morning, I would give that same information in the afternoon to the students. And that was really my teaching education, more than in college, um, because I was dealing, actually, with the students directly and the teachers and simulating how they taught. It was the best education in the world.
[00:06:28.92]
After a year of that—I was only teaching part-time, three hours. After that, they said, "This isn't really fair to you. Why don't we pull all the seniors out and you develop a class for them? They have to have a fine art credit to graduate. And we can just concentrate on really good students," they had an Art One, which they team taught—art history. And then, each of them would have one quarter with the students. And then, the student could take, um, like that Painting One and Painting Two, Ceramics, or Sculpture. When they were senior, they could be there. So, they had three years of real concentrated time with the teacher.
[00:07:19.74]
But, those extra students that just came in for the credit, um, they gave them all to me. They were pulled out and given to me. And they decided that the next year, they wanted to offer jewelry and wanted to know if I would teach that. Well, I never had jewelry classes. And so, I taught that year just making up things. I didn't have supplies or anything. And, um, it was [laughs], it was just the greatest year, just total freedom of what I wanted to present to the class.
[00:07:56.34]
But, I went to Pittsburgh State University, which is 30 miles from Joplin—Pittsburg, Kansas. And that was probably the turning point in my career. Um, I met Marjorie Schick. And Marjorie Schick was the jewelry teacher, and I enrolled in jewelry under her in a master's program. So, I was teaching in the morning. And then, in the afternoon, I would go to the classes. And it—she inherited a textile program, and, um, she didn't know anything about weaving or textiles. But, what she did know was design. And she taught us design. We would have sessions that were just great on critiquing.
[00:08:47.60]
And, but, the second semester, I gave jewelry up because I didn't care for jewelry. I had learned enough that I could teach it, and, um, I could go from there. But, I just absolutely was fascinated with what she was teaching in fibers. And I didn't realize, um, when I sat down at that loom and started weaving, that it [laughs]—like I said before, it held my threads straight, and I could weave, and I could do it. And I considered it art. It was in an art department. It wasn't like learning to weave by a recipe. So, we were weaving grass. We were weaving everything in there.
[00:09:37.27]
Um, she brought in two experts in the semester when I was there that were weavers—we'd go through a three-day workshop with them, and that—they were marvelous. And I was teaching. I would go back to Parkwood, and I would incorporate things from her class into my class. And so, near the end of the year, we were doing, uh, quilts taking, using dyes, and making designs, and having competitions with the students. And I just absolutely loved, loved that.
[00:10:24.52]
Then, finally, that next year there I taught fiber and metal, which was a compilation of teaching hard metals to the students. We did a lot of forging, hammering, bracelets, um, And we were just using—soldering—how I got by with it in a high school class, I don't know. Nobody ever got hurt, but we, we used a handheld burners, um, butane torches and do our solder joints and everything. And I taught that for three years, fiber and metal.
[00:11:08.32]
And my classes grew after the first year to a full-time job. So, I was teaching full-time and had fiber/metal. And again, I had gotten to make up the course. I was controlling it and getting supplies for it. And the classes were getting bigger and bigger. I was so relieved the other teachers from that, um, overseeing. So, that was a great learning experience for me.
[00:11:44.47]
But, Marjorie Schick literally changed my life in that she said, "You can live anyplace in the United States and get your work shown. You don't have to be in New York [NY], Los Angeles [CA] for Indians, Santa Fe [NM]. You can get your work seen anywhere." She had us entering shows. She had us putting portfolios together. We watched her, uh, have shows in New York. She was at, um—she did a performance art piece that was jewelry. It, it was fabulous. It was at the Whitney Museum while I was in her class.
[00:12:30.72]
She was the only—an American jeweler. During the Olympics, they have a—Winter Olympics—they had a competition between, um, jewelers from different countries. And they're given a, a studio, and they make their art. And there are painters and other things. But, she did that while I was a student. I literally saw her being an artist. And, um, and she did a lot of her work at school. So, she was wonderful for model—a role model.
[00:13:12.25]
And I was in shows before I graduated because she would have us enter them. Then, she was having us save everything that—all the printed material that was written about us—to create a portfolio. And when I graduated, um, I had a portfolio, a professional portfolio to put together. And so, Marjorie lived on a long time. But—and my career was growing. And when she passed away about two, three years ago, her papers all went to the Smithsonian. Her memorial was at Nelson-Atkins Museum in, uh, Kansas City [MO]. [Cross talk.]
[00:14:02.58]
She was a great artist. Her work was seen all over the world—and, I mean, she was all over the world. And, um, I know, I was going to be speaking in Edinburgh, one time, in Scotland, and I was the speaker for the Battleby Faire in Scotland. And I, I would go over because Mar—Marjorie was a friend. And I would go over. And, and I told her that I was going to Scotland. "Oh," she said, "Royal Scottish Museum, you can see one of my pieces there." And so, I was doing research at the museum.
[00:14:41.73] First thing when I went in, I told, the lady that was in charge of my research, "I'd like to see the Marjorie Schick." Well, there it was. It was just out in public. You know, it was on display.
[00:14:56.28]
And she was like that—Japan, everywhere, they had her work. So, that was so important to me, that I could, I could focus on one thing, textiles, and I could make my career of that. And, um, it was, it was like it was meant to be. But, back to the teaching, I taught fiber/metal.
[00:15:25.86]
And the two high schools in Joplin decided to go together and make one large high school building, one large—and so, they had to eliminate a teacher. And a young teacher had, um, just been hired, and they were going to cut her. So, I wrote a letter that I would like to resign and that she have the position, and, um, that was in 1984, was the last year I taught.
[00:15:54.54]
My son had started—graduated from high school and started college in [19]80. My husband had left being a principal, and he was an elementary principal at that time, the Indian schools. And, um, he had four years in State Farm Insurance. He was in insurance, and it was much more lucrative than teaching was. And, after four years, he told me, "You can—you can—we can afford to have you quit teaching, and you can create your career." So, that gave me the courage to go back and tell the school that I wanted to resign.
[00:16:43.40]
So, in 1984, I started my business, and I wanted to name it after my great-, great-, great- grandmother Mahota. She came to Indian Territory in 1844. And so, I started Mahota Handwovens at that time, in [19]84. And, um, it went until—oh, let's see—two years ago, guess, during COVID. I closed down the studio. And we decided I would give up the Mahota Handwovens title. And so, it was in existence almost 40 years, uh, 38 years. And it was, was a wonderful time that I created all of those different pieces for that.
[00:17:39.38]
After I graduated in 1978 with my master’s, anyplace I could string thread and have tension, I was doing that. And, for about a year after I graduated from the master's, I was mostly doing tapestry techniques. And I bought a loom, and it was a walnut, handmade loom from a craftsman in Eureka Springs [AR] and set that up.
[00:18:18.08]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Margaret, I did want to ask you, before you, uh, shared more with us, I wanted to go back to what you were talking about the classes you taught. So, you consistently taught, uh, metal and fiber. And so, were those separate classes? Were they individual classes? Or did you find some sort of way to combine those throughout the semester?
[00:18:47.03]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: It was—fiber/metal was all one. And so, we did only a quarter of metal because it was so expensive. We started using silver in the beginning for the first year or two. Then, the silver got too expensive for students to, to buy, and, uh—or the school to buy. And so, we changed to brass. And because they were using the handheld burners and everything, we only did a, a quarter of the metal, and then, three quarters on fibers because it was cheaper to do. And I would break it up [clears throat]. We—I would buy a loom with my, um, school money, real small looms and—each year. So, we only had one loom the first year, two looms the second year. And, um we—so, I would do soft sculpture for, for six weeks. We would do the design work. Then, we would make soft sculptures.
[00:19:55.04]
And the, the kids were doing [laughs]—they were doing amazing things. And I was entering them in shows, and we were winning awards. We would do, um, weave into objects. They would bring in—like, one boy brought in antlers and really a wonderful weaving into that. And another boy—and what was really interesting, I was getting the football players, and so, a football player that went on to play at OU [University of Oklahoma]. And, also that year, the team won state in football. He brought in a, um, old window that the panes were broken out of, and it was just, you know, the the aged—the paint was off of. And he created a scene behind there. And I had mop yarn. He dyed all the mop yarn and had a tree, and a landscape, and had it tacked to the back of the window.
[00:21:06.23]
I mean, they were real imaginative. One boy that was going to [University of]Arkansas to play football, he put—brought an old board in—um, it was a beautiful grain board—and put tacks all the way around it and strung his work up on a tack and did the Razorback—um, [laughs] the, the pig or whatever. He—it just a wonderful—they all excelled. They all excelled.
[00:21:35.89]
In the soft sculpture, I had another student who did his car, and he took pictures on all four sides of it. His mother said he was up in a tree taking a picture of the top of it. And, just, they got so involved in their projects and their soft sculptures. We did an environment—the fiber/metal two students did an environment that was shown at our administration building. And it was, um, prehistoric. They did palm trees. They did birds flying in the sky. They did dinosaurs all out of soft sculptures that we had dyed. And so, they were very intricate and time-consuming.
[00:22:23.93]
And, um—I was trying to think. We did batik. We did a lot of batik. They loved the, the wax resist. And, and also, I would divide the classes. There, there were usually twenty students. I could divide them. And we—as we got the looms, certain people would work on the looms certain times, and then, they would trade off. So, they were getting that, too. And so lots of, lots of fun, [laughs] lots of fun.
[00:22:57.79]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Well, thank you for sharing that. I just thought about the contrast in those materials, metal, and then, fiber. And putting them into one class, I wonder how that worked. But, I'm so glad you described all these, uh, all [cross talk] the subject matter that the students created. That just sounds wonderful. I want to be in that class [they laugh].
[00:23:19.87]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: They, um, also combined—when—if you are in fiber/metal two, you could combine the fiber and the metal together. And we had some interesting pieces from that. And we were always in—having group shows, and, um, and it was, it was really an exciting time.
[00:23:42.23]
And one thing I do want to say is when I was painting, and when I—then, metal sculpture, I was accepted into several shows. And, um, when I decided to go into fiber, I was no longer allowed in those shows because fiber was a craft. And [cross talk], and so, I, I had to find [laughs], a a new place, really, to show—new places. And at that time, it was the late [19]70s, early [19]80s. It was really macrame and crafty. So, um, I just had high expectations of where fibers would take me, and they proved out in the end. I took my portfolio around to—when I quit teaching—uh, to different places.
[00:24:43.01]
And I made sure I was going to museums that held an Indian interest. I went to the Heard Museum in Phoenix [AZ], took my portfolio there. [Clears throat] I went to Southern Plains Museum, Anadarko [OK], took my portfolio there. Gilcrease in Tulsa [OK], took my portfolio there, um, and the Wheelwright in Santa Fe [NM].
[00:25:07.28]
And each one of those museums gave me a show. I had my first one-woman show in Anadarko. [Clears throat] the Gilcrease Museum in Tulsa, Oklahoma, had me do a—recreate a painting, so that we had a living painting. It was a Hopi woman and her children. And then, I got to do a fashion show also during that period of time. The Heard Museum took one of my pieces in the Native Art to Wear [exhibition], um, that was up for six months. And, and Wheelwright Museum hired—not hired me—but they had me in shows, uh, fashion shows that they put on. And also, they put me in—there was a show going around called Women of Sweetgrass, Cedar, and Sage. It was an exhibit that was touring, and they asked me to be part of that while I was in their museum. [cross talk].
[00:26:22.10]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I'd, I'd love to read your artist statement, if you don't mind, because it kind of shows this transition, this period of transition in your life that—[cross talk] and so, I'm just going to read it out loud here: [reading aloud] "I've worked as an artist and sculptor for 50 years, in the media for which I was trained. My direction dramatically changed when my job required me to teach textiles. I'd grown up in a household where fibers were a part of my daily life. My mother and grandmother knitted, sewed, quilted, and crocheted, but I had never considered this part of my life as integral to my artistic work. The loom and the act of weaving, however, brought memories not only of childhood, but also an awareness of my ethnic heritage. Today, fibers have become the paint and metal wherein I work. I feel my training, my heritage, and my artistic talent have found completion in the act of weaving."
[00:27:27.25]
And so, you made this transition. And then, all of the, the Indian art world opened up to you, [cross talk] and I find that remarkable in terms of—um, you know, it speaks so much of, not only your capability, but your artistic, um, practices that others were accepting, and recognizing, and not putting in that category that earlier was just craft.
[00:27:59.20]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Right. Well, [clears throat] also, along, at that period of time, I was learning about weaving. I—there were local guilds. So, you could go—I—if I was in Joplin, Missouri, the closest was, um, the Crowder Weavers Guild. There was the—at Bella Vista, Arkansas, the Forest State Weavers Guild. There was, um, Springfield, Missouri, Weavers Guild. There was a Tulsa, Oklahoma, Weavers Guild. And I became an active member in Tulsa because they were a real teaching guild. And I was—I started that while I was in, in, in, school and continued on for many years.
[00:28:50.47]
Then, in the weaving world, it's a wonderful networking going on. You have your state organization. So, Missouri had Missouri Fiber Artists. And I've been—friends that I met in late [19]70s, we are still friends today and still active artists. We all grew together. And we, um—there's the Oklahoma Fibers, l which I've never been that close to. Um, I, I have taught workshops for them, and I have been in, um, several of their shows. And, and—but, there is an Oklahoma—not as active as the Missouri one was. Then, there—you have the Midwest, and your Midwest weavers all, all meet. And there's a Rocky Mountain Weavers. And there's a California, um, Confederation of Weavers. So, you have these organizations that grow and, finally, "Convergence," which it's an international weaving conference.
[00:30:03.82]
And I—when I was out from doing my active shows, competitions, I started growing within that weaving network. I would show at at, um, the Midwestern show and do larger pieces, and I would do, do my headdress pieces, and find those. And then, finally, "Convergence" was very important for me. And I was probably the only Native American that was showing in the "Convergence." And I would—they would have a big fashion show at the end of their—every two years, it was in a different location.
[00:30:50.76]
The first year that I competed, um, was in Chicago. And I did two pieces for the fashion show. It's a juried fashion show. I made it in and got to see my pieces there. And then, we were in Washington, DC, uh, San Jose, California, Minneapolis [MN], Atlanta, Georgia, always Denver [CO], mu—always Oregon. So, we were seen across the country. You are also teaching conferences. You would teach workshops. And I was in demand, so I was making my money in the weaving world. And, um, those first ones were, how do I say it, they, they helped me get started.
[00:31:52.02]
They gave me confidence. I did not want to join the Indian markets because I didn't want my clothes on hangers, in, just in a booth. I wanted to be in a fashion show. And so, I quickly learned that museum fashion shows are exciting, and they're fun. But, there's no money in that. So, I had to give that up [laughs]. But, when I was at the Wheelwright doing their shows, um, Rowena Dickerson was there. And she left and went to a hotel in Santa Fe.
[00:32:46.22]
And then, she was to be the concierge. I was still doing things with the Wheelwright. And Rowena called me one day, and they were having a speaker and—for their grand opening, which was going to be, um, I think, on a Friday or Saturday. It was a weekend. And she called me, like, on a Wednesday. And she said, "We're—we have a problem. Our speaker has gotten ill. He's in the hospital and may not able to attend. Can you come and do a fashion show?" And she had done fashion shows with me for several years. And I said, "Of course," [laughs] you know. And it was the Inn of Anasazi [Hotel], and there were to be a holistic hotel. It was a boutique hotel, right off the square in Santa Fe.
[00:33:45.83]
And so, [clears throat] I arrived on a Friday night. The models were all artists, wives, and, um, and, and, the artists themselves, the women artists. And it was great [laughs]. The Japanese bankers were there. The Aspen architects from Aspen, Colorado. And the Zimmer Group out of Dallas, they had put the hotel together. And, uh, the Zimmers were going to run it. And it was a great success, the fashion show was. And so, Zimmer asked me if I would work with them doing private shows, or they could call, you know, and I would come. And so I said, "Of course. I would love that."
[00:34:38.44]
So, that got me into Santa Fe. And, um, I would go out, probably, three or four times a year and, and have a room there at the hotel. And I would go during the Indian Market. I would have a trunk show in the library and a fashion show in their dining room. And [clears throat] that went on four years, I think, Zimmer sold the business. His son was a chef, and the, the food was all authentic.
[00:35:13.15]
And everybody left. And finally, Rowena herself left the hotel. And, I—it was a fantastic way for me to build a clientele. And I would meet people up in the rooms, um, and I would sent out cards and all. And so, I had a built-in clientele in that area because of the Anasazi. And when that ended, I, then, started doing the Indian Market. I gave up and put my clothes on hangers [they laugh] and, uh, had them in the Indian markets. And so, Santa Fe was my first market. And then, I added the Eiteljorg Museum, the, the, the [Smithsonian] Native American museums that's in New York, and in Washington, DC.
[00:36:12.37]
And they both have markets at the same time. So, I was in both markets. And this was resulting in museums in Native American, and the Heard Museum, and then the Cherokee Market, and, uh, where—wherever. But, I did about six to eight markets a year after that. And that really, that's when I got the clientele. They come looking for Native American things.
[00:36:49.08]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Well, I'm going to pause for just a minute. But, I want you to—I'm going to show, um, a lot of those pieces that were part of this—your initiative in Native fashion and in other, other sculptural pieces that you made. And so, um, I'm going to—we're going to stop and take just a moment to get a drink, and then we'll talk about that. Is that all right?
[00:37:17.88]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Fine.
[00:37:22.36]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: So, Margaret, now we're going to look at some amazing images. Um, you have a—you—I have to say, you have a fabulous website. And for those—for reference for those who later want to go look at it, it's margaretroachwheeler.art and, um, just a lot of—years of her work and beautiful photography with descriptions. And so, we're going to look at a few of those things [cross talk] now that you're going to [clears throat] tell us what we're looking at. And I will share my screen.
[00:38:00.57]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: All right. [Cross talk.] [Slide: two photographs of models in dark clothing.]
[00:38:05.39]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Let me go to our beginning. Let me, uh, let me get out of there for one second. Escape. And go to the beginning because that's the best place, as the song goes, to start [laughs].
[00:38:24.14]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Are we recording?
[00:38:25.98]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Yes.
[00:38:26.87]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Okay. Okay. [Slide: two photographs of models in white garb.]
[00:38:32.24]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: All right, you just—I'll go through the slides as you talk.
[00:38:37.52]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Um, to come up with the ideas, I—it's just sort of automatic with me. I'm always looking for ideas for—to create garments. And there was a white buffalo, um, that was born, and it was all over the news that it was such great news. So, I decided I was going to do a white buffalo. And this is the—what was I created. It is a silk wool. It has cow horns on it. It has beadwork around it. And in the back, there is a small beadwork.
[00:39:22.97]
And I wasn't doing any pattern in the beadwork. I was just—it was a free-form. So, um, it—this was chosen by the Museum of Art and Design, along with my bear, to show. And the, the [laughs] piece I had sold—so, they, they didn't take the headdress.
[00:39:53.61]
They bought the robe. They bought at the Heard Market. I had—when you apply for those shows, you need to write down that you don't show, uh, the garment because I had forgotten. I had applied, and this was one of the things. And when they selected it, I was, "Oh, my goodness I don't have it anymore. But, I could recreate it," um, I told them. So, they said, "Okay, you recreate it," and I did. And they turned it down.
[00:40:30.73]
It was a little bit different. I still had the headdress to go with it. And they kept my bear, instead. And they wanted me to create another piece for that show, which I created the owl. But, I was doing the Indian market in, in Washington, DC. There was this lady, and she was on crutches. She was on the, the arm crutches. And she kept being outside waiting for me. And finally, my—the crowd thinned out, and she came in. And she said, "Um, I know that you're the weaver that my husband bought a piece at the Heard Museum. It was a big, white robe. And as you can see, I'm, I'm crippled. And I can't support the weight of it. And would you be willing to take it back? I can't—I don't want it just hanging in the closet. And, um, it's too lovely of a piece." And I said, "Oh, my goodness, yes." And I created for her a silk wool, which is light, real lightweight. It's not like the wools. And we made the exchange. So, I had this piece back. So, now, I have two robes [laughs]. One of them, I cut off, the new one, I cut off for a jacket. And then, then, I still have this piece of the buffalo robe. You never know if you're going to get pieces back or not. It, it's happens very rarely. That one was gone for five or six years, and I got it back in, in exchange for another piece. So, it's sort of an interesting story. And the next slide [slide: three photographs of models posed in differing dark ensembles].
[00:42:35.89]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: That's a great story. Oh, I will do this one [cross talk].
[00:42:39.31]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Well, if I'd known that the [laughs] Museum of Art and Design wanted it. This was one of the first pieces of, of, Spirit Animals, Thunder Dreamer, that I showed in, uh, Washington, DC, at "Convergence." And I had seen a, a sculpture of a wolf, a warrior dressed as a wolf, and I thought it was a great idea. And so, this is linen, and it is—the wolf head is on there. This is one of the pieces that I collaborated on with Alice McKee. She, uh, was sewing for me at the time. And she's a beautiful, a wonderful seamstress. And I could just draw up any, any pattern I wanted, and she could do it.
[00:43:44.58]
And so, when I was going to do the headdress, and, um, I was planning on a different method to do the headdress. And Alice said, "Would you mind if I did the headdress?" and I said—and she showed me an alligator costume she had made for her ch—child for Halloween that year that was the alligator head.
[00:44:14.68]
And it was so wonderful. I said, "Yes, you can make it." So, Alice became, really, a partner. And when pieces were shown that she had helped me with, I—it would say, "Alice McKee and Margaret Roach Wheeler." And these were done at "Convergences". But, this piece was one of our first pieces. And I can remember [laughs] Alice lived in a trailer at that time. And I'm sitting in the trailer. I have a shower curtain around my shoulders, and I am pulling out the goose feathers, these are going on the back of the headdress. And she is putting a baseball cap on my head and using plaster gauze to create the headdress. And, uh, we still laugh about how much fun we had in putting things together. But, she put the headdress together.
[00:45:10.06]
And then, her mother, Mayo—Maria Mayo [Donovan], um, she is, is a silversmith and real whimsical jewelry. And so, she did the silver work. So, he has a silver and copper palate on the inside, um, of his palate. [Cross talk]. And I would do it—I would design the piece. I would draw it all out. And then, um, Maria would work with me, and so would Alice. And they were more fun to work with.
[00:45:45.58]
And another funny thing with this—I was running out of, of the linen. I didn't have enough the—to make both legs like—so, I added stripes, and it makes a wonderful [laughs] change in the piece. One of my theories when I work is happenstance. And always, I go with my feelings, um, of things and how they should be, and they work out. So, that was Thunder Dreamer. [Cross talk.]
[00:46:20.11]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Yeah, I love the stripes. They're brilliant [laughs].
[00:46:23.96]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: I know, I know. And then, the next piece, Labyrinth of the Loons, was done for a show in Minneapolis. And I, I researched, trying to figure out what to make for that show. The loon is the state bird. And, um, so, I decided to do loons. And then, I get pictures of loons. I see what their coloration is, and I would weave to that. So, they have a light-colored breast, and then, the, the back of the garment is black. And it goes down into a tail. And, um, Alice, again, sewed this one. Then, Maria made the, the loon heads. They're out of silver and have the eyes. And then, also, the front, um, buttons that go across have silver and red. And, and then loons—there are two loons on the top of the headdress.
[00:47:33.99]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: So beautiful. It's really nice.
[00:47:36.27]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Well, it's fun. [Slide: close up photograph of a red and green soft sculpture, The Bear.] It's fun to try to figure out how to put it—one shown, it toured with the Museum of Art Design. That was Changing Hands, Art Without Reservation. And they also showed the, um, owl, which you will see later, and that toured. I know it was at Philbrook. I can't remember the other places, but it—beautiful catalog that was done [cross talk].
[00:48:05.34]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Was it at Peabody Essex?
[00:48:08.13]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: I think so, maybe. Maybe so. But, he has also the silver [slide: two photographs of model in a robe and headdress]—wait—he has a silver palate [slide: close up photograph of a red and green soft sculpture], and he has elk teeth, and, um, goose feathers, again, down the back. And I was always—we, we cannot use sacred feathers, and these pieces were made so that I could unpin the feathers and give them to the, the buyer if that was so.
[00:48:40.80]
So, I—the feathers would be a gift, but they would buy the rest of it. And, um, this piece is done in a chenille. I had to cut each—you have to design the warp so that it had long floats in it—not long, but a long float ending for his vest. And then, I would, um, a—you, know, put 12 strands of silk wool through, and then, I would weave one or two strands in between, create this pattern which is like trees for the forest.
[00:49:20.35]
And, um, then, you go in, and you clip those, and then, you have to throw it in a hot washer, agitate it, to felt it. The silk wool will felt, to a degree. And then, it—you're very nerve wracking because you put so much time in it that you could ruin the piece, but it worked. It worked [cross talk].
[00:49:40.89]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: It's really great.
[00:49:42.70]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: They do have a—[cross talk].
[00:49:44.73]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Oh, I'm sorry. I was going to ask you, how you, um, how you fixed the elk teeth in the silver palate of the bear?
[00:49:57.06]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: I'm not sure how Maria does it, but they're still in there [they laugh].
[00:50:01.36]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: That's great. It's amazing. But, the chenille, um, weaving is really fascinating. And it's interesting to know that, you know, for those who aren't familiar with fibers, that you do have the worry of the potential to ruin something.
[00:50:21.00]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Oh, yes, yeah. It's always nerve wracking. You, you have to, um, just grin and bear it. I've had pieces that I have, have washed and ruined, and then, I had to go back and reweave it. And so, you, you're always aware.
[00:50:40.23]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: And, for someone like me who really didn't know a lot about textiles when we met, I was surprised that you washed things. [Cross talk], I never dreamed that was part of the process.
[00:50:54.06]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Well, fulling is really a big part of the process. And it closes the weave structure and makes it more fiber—solid fiber. And, uh, it's very important to do. And when you're working with wool, it's very nerve wracking because I got where I was using, um—I, I know I had—Ornament magazine did an article on me. And they asked what threads I was using, and I wasn't sure, because that was very early in my career, and I was buying a lot of mill ends.
[00:51:32.31]
And I was, literally, balled out and said, "You buy and you know what fibers you are using because it's important." And I really quickly learned to make notes. Uh, I have sketchbooks in which I start a project out. I tell where the yarn is from. I buy only Jagger Spun silk wool. I know what it's going to do. But, when you use, um, an inferior grade of wool, it will shrink at a, you know, at a big rate.
[00:52:10.03]
And so, you—if you are particular about what kind of fibers, and you know them, then you can, um, count the agitations in the washing machine. I like a washer with agitator lid that doesn’t lock. And I, literally, count how many agitations it does. And then, I allow it's fulled [slide: two photographs of model in a robe and headdress].
[00:52:38.97]
The owl was also shown at the Museum of, uh—and I created it specifically for the Changing Hands show. And it goes back to my grandmother. Traditionally, uh, Native Americans are afraid of owls. And my grandmother always knew someone was going to die if an owl hooted near the house. And it, it, it always made me curious. I would slip out and try to find it, where it—what was making the noise, where the owl was. And so, when I did this, I wanted to make an owl for my grandmother. And, um, this, this coloration, you would think is strange.
[00:53:26.41]
But, the photographs that I was looking at, I—they show an owl at night in the light on it. It had this orange cast to it [slide: two close up photographs of an owl headdress]. And so, I decided to go with that. And, um, the beaded headdress, it's all edged in beads.
[00:53:45.82]
I beaded conchos for this, and a copper nose, copper conchos. I got to go back and use my forging from my jewelry classes. And the beadwork, I know we were traveling, that was beading in the car. We were near Asheville, North Carolina. And I went in, and I bought enough beads to finish out [laughs] the mask. So, they all have memories.
[00:54:21.52]
Alice McKee, she, um, started having children. She had three children in a row. And, and she had her own artwork. And so, we parted company at that time. We're still dear friends and talk to each other regularly, um, and, and laugh and remember about our doing. But, probably for the last 20 years, I've done my own headdresses. So, this one, I did. And it was bought by the, um, Oregon—no—Portland Art Museum, and so it's in Portland [OR] [slide: two photographs of a model in a horse costume].
[00:55:02.89]
This is the Chickasaw Horse. Um, I researched, and it was for Return From Exile. It was a show. They asked where I would put a piece in that. It was Bobby Martin and Tony Tiger, um, curated it. And they wanted things that had come from, uh, Mississippi. It could be stories. It could be anything that made a transition into Indian Territory when the, when the—during Removal.
[00:55:44.69]
Well, I found out that the Chickasaw horse came with the Indians. There were three horses for every Chickasaw that came. So, that—there was a lot of, not a lot because we weren't that larger tribe, that was our prized possession. They were not sure of the origin of it, whether [Francisco V. de] Coronado brought the horse over and introduced it. And, um, Chickasaws immediately picked it up and went, went with it.
[00:56:18.23]
And they, uh, bred it, and it was their pride [slide: two photographs of a beaded horse mask]—they were known for trading the horses. The Chickasaw tribe traded all through the 1800s. And it was a short horse. It had short legs. They say it had to get on its knees to graze sometimes. It was fast, and it could be a pack horse, also. And—but, we don't see Chickasaw horses today. But, I found out, um, it was the forefather of the quarter horse. And so, it runs real fast for short distances.
[00:57:09.79]
Now, the bells are actually handmade. A jeweler friend of mine, Randy Wright, made, made those for me. And they have sun symbols on them. And I did a beadwork of, um, an owl for their swiftness and for the brilliance. And copper around the muzzle has beadwork on it also. So, it, it was a fun, [laughs] fun piece to make. It's all cotton. A lot of warp is left. And it's for the mane and all down the back of the piece is a twisted warp.
[00:57:57.77]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Margaret, I just paused the recording [cross talk]. My dogs are just—they need to go outside. I apologize for that. Uh, I'm going to let them out really quickly. And, I think, they'll be quiet and settle down. But, they're jumping on my bedroom door, and scratching, and barking. So, just a minute, please. [Background talking.]
[00:58:57.41]
Okay, I'm sorry. [Cross talk] um, we may have to pause it again later. But, right now, I just needed to stop all that racket. We won't even say that we've paused. We'll just act like this was just part of the whole gig. [Cross talk.] Are you ready to go the next slide? Or did you want to continue?
[00:59:18.67]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: No. Not if you had questions about this one.
[00:59:23.63]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Um, no, not really. I think you explained it really well. It's super beautiful. All right, so I'm going to start the, um—start recording, again. I'm looking where the controls are. I guess this is it, just "resume." It says, "Your screen sharing is paused." I don't know if we're still recording or not. But, we'll, we'll work that out later.
[01:00:04.49]
Margaret, that was really beautiful. I remember seeing this at the Return from Exile exhibition. It's really outstanding in person.
[01:00:15.44]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: I could add one more thing about it. Um, I have been asked for it, again, by a museum for a show in 23—fall of 2023, and I—a North Carolina museum. And they're trying to figure out whether they make the, um, the mannequin for it or I do. But, it will travel again [to the North Carolina Museum of Art in the spring of 2024 –MRW].
[01:00:54.78]
This piece, was—it's Leda. And it was made for a show called Visual Voices. It's, uh, art of the Chickasaws. And I wanted, in this one, to cre—create a swan cape. The swan capes were worn by the aristocrats of the tribe, the Mincos [chiefs, –MRW] and their wives. And so, I've always wanted to do one. And when the show came up, I thought, "Oh, that would be good to do that."
[01:01:34.45]
So, in researching this like I do when I get an idea for a show, I, I go, um, look at everything—catalogs, recordings. And, too, you have to—we have the internet now. We didn't use to have the internet. You used to go to libraries and look—but now, on the internet. And I found that Leda was married to, um, one of the kings. And, in Greek mythology, Zeus comes down and seduces Leda. And he comes as a swan. And many artists had done her—Leonardo da Vinci, um, Michelangelo, Raphael. And I realized that, "Oh, I could do that in a fiber form."
[01:02:34.23]
So, I produced this piece. It is my first molded sculpture out of fiber. One of the people that I was so influenced about with doing my master's was, um, [Magdalena] Abakanowicz. And she was molding fiber. And I, I've been—I've always loved that. And I've been doing fiber portraits, faces for—since, since I taught school. And so, I—but, I'd never done a whole body form. And I had made some forms, so I tried to use it in here, um, to do that. [Cross talk.]
[01:03:24.21]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Would you, would you share how you created the face and, and the weaving, the fabric over—the textile over the face?
[01:03:33.36]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes. And, and I—in another—in the Lowak one, I will show, um, pictures of how I do that. But, I make a plaster mold. And then, in the plaster—and these are life molds. People have to sit for them and use a—it's called moulage. And, and it's put on the face like a real heavy whipped cream, and it takes on all the, the features and eyebrows, everything. It's—and then, you peel that off the face, and you have a negative form. And then, I then fill the negative form with wax—then you make a plaster mold of the wax.
[01:04:27.57]
And you have—then, then, you've got a plaster case. Then, you have to do the reverse and get back to the negative. The moulage dries up, and you can't use it. So, you have to, then—oh, I, I know. You wax. You make a wax, um, negative in your negative space. You build up the wax and build up the wax. And then, you take the wax, and you put it in a—usually, I—you use a box and put plaster over that and, um, come up with a negative. And so, I have several faces, and I've taught several workshops on the process.
[01:05:11.26]
And [clears throat] then, I just literally mold the weavings into the mask—the mold. And they come out [laughs] remarkably well. [Cross talk.]
[01:05:27.67]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Her face is really beautiful. This is—because of my involvement as the exhibition manager and, uh, just from the beginning working with you all as a collaborator and, and a five-member board of Chickasaw Artists for Visual Voices, um, I was—I got to kind of watch the steps. And then, I spent a lot of time with, you know, your final artwork. And her face is very beautiful, and so, it's, it's outstanding. [Cross talk.]
[01:06:03.39]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: I, I used silk when I was weaving and try to get a blush tone, uh, for the body and for, for that. And you will see later, um, I went to a different m—mold, and it didn't work as well on the bodies. So, I will go back to my plaster or find techniques that do work. Each feather is made independently and, um, a—with a casing and a, a, a monofilament that's put in the center, a heavy-gauge monofilament to get that.
[01:06:50.19]
She is covered in freshwater pearls, because the women of the mound builders, they used—that one of the ornamentations and also the shells. So, she, she has a freshwater pearl design on her back, a sun symbol. So, she—that is Leda. And, um, they didn’t—they just wore fringe skirts. So, I made a fringe skirt. [Slide: two photographs of a woven torso of a man with dark clothing.]
[01:07:21.25]
This was the other piece, uh, I made for Visual Voices. It is The Crow, the Murder of One. And, um, it is a darker piece in that you really can't see—you can see a little bit in the fringe right up. It, you can—there is a little—there is a red thread that is in warp that is running through this. And then, you can see that the bottom of the piece is shaped in red and in, uh, that sense for the blood that was lost with the tribes. And so, it, it—the, the underside of the crow is red. And this is a piece that Maria Maya [Donovan] and Alice would work with me.
[01:08:17.36]
I did a robe, and it was a, uh, very large robe. It was called Requiem for a Raven. And it sold in Santa Fe to a woman in California who was going to wear it as an opera coat. She said she goes to opera all the time, and she wanted a robe to wear. And it was a floor-length robe. She didn't know she was going to get the headdress, too [laughs]. And so, she, she took the robe and the headdress.
[01:08:47.69]
And, um, then, about five years ago, I was working on this piece. And I got a call from California [slide: two photographs of a textile crow headdress]. And it was, um, an auction company that had gone to an estate sale. And my name was, inside the crow—or, inside the Raven. And they wanted to know about it for auction, so they could put a price on it. And I knew I was going to do the crow. And so, I gave them all the information, and they hung up [laughs]. And I found it online in, um, in an antique shop. And it had quite a big price on it, and I bought it. I bought it back. And I didn't pay quite the original price that it had, but it was a good price. And then, I created the crow. And again, he is a hand-cast face.
[01:09:55.46]
And is—it's made of wool, this one is, the weaving. And it's made of MW Twill, which is a "Margaret Wheeler." It's my initials that are woven in him. And, you can see, what—from his neck area, there is crows flying, a flock of crows flying out from him. And his legs are tree legs. My husband cuts limbs and stuff and made the base for me. So, he's in the trees. So, that is The Murder of One.
[01:10:37.99]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Just as a reminder—sometimes, I forget this. I forgot this until you created this pie—piece. But, a flock of crows is called a "murder." So, that was super interesting. And crows have a very important, uh, place in our Southeastern tribal histories and stories. And so, um, he's, he's magnificent. When you see him in person, he's very striking. His face is beautiful. You have this really unique patterning on the fabric on his face. It's just beautiful. It reminds me of tattoos that they used to tattoo their face with [cross talk] in our Southeastern mound-building cultures. And then, of course, the, the crows flowing out—I'm sorry—flying out from his chest is beadwork. So, um, very special.
[01:11:36.96]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: It was a lot of fun to do. [Slide: two photographs of two mannequins in white and purple.] This piece was made for a show in Cincinnati [OH] in 2000. And I, I thought, "What, what do I want to do for 2000?" Um, people thought computers were going to shut down at that period of time and everything. So, I wanted to do the Prophets—Prophet 1000 and Prophet 2000. Prophet 1000 is in white, and, um—I used polyester, which I don't use—I use all-natural fibers generally, except for special times.
[01:12:21.31]
And so, I used a pollen—polyester. It's a real, um, shiny cord in his warp and, and based with cotton weft. I used cotton to represent the old style, and then, polyester in the machine age—it all took place in the 1800s. And so, it's real representational in his, his robe, the material. In the 2000, I used a really fine silk. And it's in purples and golds. And, um, then, the accessory pieces that go with them are the staffs. There are carved faces in them. And they're dressed like the, the Prophet. And on their heads, again, I used the, the cloth to create the face and the headdress.
[01:13:30.63]
And this is the first time I had, um, used electricity. I put battery packs inside, and so, the faces light up. At, and—the fashion show in Cincinnati, it was beautiful. Their stage made an "X." It came out into the audience. And these were two Black models. They came out. very statuesque, very tall. They had the, the, um, the staffs, and they would threw the staffs down. The music was perfect. And they were making this tattooing noise as they came down. And they crossed in the middle and looked at each other, and then, went out onto the—and they're out in the audience.
[01:14:24.70]
And they lowered the lights, and their faces looked all around the audience. It was the—one of the best fashion shows. A lot of times, the—they don't get across what I'm trying to say. That one was perfect. The crowd loved it—[cross talk].
[01:14:48.76]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: It's so dramatic. It sounds amazing. [Cross talk.] Do you have a video of that?
[01:14:54.65]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: There used to be. Uh, I don't think so. I don't—probably HGA, Handweavers Guild of America has it up on one of their old videos. I used to, uh, get things from them. I don't anymore participate in them. But, um, I got photos, but I didn't—I don't think there was a video that I got of that one. [Cross talk.]
[01:15:21.37]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: It's lovely. These are staggering. I mean, just the—not only the beauty of them, but the innovation, uh, you know, the, the history, the textiles themselves, the staffs, and then, um, the creative headdresses. Those are really remarkable. [Cross talk.]
[01:15:44.42]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: I probably should have been in performance art because I love the dramatics [they laugh]. I love, I love when it is done properly. Now, I did I did pieces that were shown in Vancouver [Canada]. And, um, that—I don't think we've got it on the slide, but it was, it was not shown properly. You know? They didn't get it. And so, it—you send the pieces off, and you give descriptions how you want it presented. But, it's out of your hands from then on. [Slide: two photographs of women modeling woven clothing.]
[01:16:19.53]
So, this, I was thrilled with this one. Now, these are some of the couture show—uh, clothing. They were shown in the markets. did them for Indian markets. This one was sold in Santa Fe. It's, uh, a short poncho and then a skirt with—that's off to the side. it's all in linen. Um, I bought this—it's called Belgium flax, and it's horribly expensive. So, anything that I did in that, it just doubled the price on it. But, it is gorgeous fabric to work with. [Slide: photograph of three women modeling clothes.]
[01:17:04.40]
Um, I did jackets were my bread and butter and blouses. And I would do—[laughs] the, the fur collar, longer coat is a funny story. I had decided that I was going to upholster two chairs that I had—my mother had left me. And I was going—did them in wool, wove all the cloth for the chairs. And Santa Fe was coming. I felt like I didn't have enough things. Then, the chairs turned into coats. So, this was one of the coats. It's, um, ultrasuede or—yeah, ultrasuede sleeves, and the bindings on it are, and then, a fur cuffs and collar.
[01:17:56.72]
And they used this one—it was a page ad in a Santa Fe magazine. And the lady saw it, and she reserved it for her. I was—it was one of the first times that I had gotten back from an ad that she wanted that one, not to sell it, that she would be at my booth. So, that was good. [Slide: photograph of women modeling draped tops.]
[01:18:25.91]
Again, just staples. You—I, I came up with a whole series of blouses, a breastplate. Um, and I had different names for them. And I had—I would try to have 25. I tried to have 100 garments. I made 75, usually, um, for each show. That would—and I would sell a lot of blouses and, and shawls. [Slide: two photographs of the backs of jackets.]
[01:18:53.96] This is the other. The one on the left is the other one that was done as a, um, chair. And was made into a jacket. And it's all wool. And then, this is a jacket, and it was, um, a cotton. And—that might be silk wool. That's silk wool. And made in jackets and, again, sold at the Indian markets. [Slide: two photographs of women modeling jackets.]
[01:19:22.10]
And more jackets. I found the military jacket was very popular. Um, the Indians loved them. Revolutionary jackets, whatever they could get, they put in. The more folderol that was on it, the epaulets, everything, they loved. So, um, I did a lot, a lot of those. [Slide: two photographs of women modeling capes.] And, uh, this is a cape that I did, and it has a large fur collar and a dramatic pose. And I was very lucky in my photography. I was, was fortunate enough, in a very early conference, to be critiqued by two weavers who were nationally known. And you could sign up, and they would critique your portfolio.
[01:20:20.98]
They said, "Your weaving is extraordinary. Your photography is bad." So, um, I learned very early on—that was, like, 1980—that I needed good photography. And so, I went to Chicago [IL]. And, the photographer tried to talk me out of it. I, I—, I insisted. When I quit teaching, I put 10,000 dollars back. And, um, I, I insisted I wanted this. And so, I chose five outfits. I went to Chicago.
[01:21:07.23]
Uh, I worked with a stylist. I got to pick my model from composites. And her name was Natalie Carroll, and she was perfect. She wasn't Indian, but she had real classic features and dark complexioned. And, um, he, he was a master at—at—there was, like, 10 people working on the photoshoot. The stylists would make them take off the dress and re-iron something if there was a wrinkle in it. The, uh, stylist and I beaded big beads for one.
[01:21:50.16]
And I really learned in that one session. I flew in that morning, and they were taking transparencies at that period of time with what magazine you wanted, then I left. I flew into Chicago in the morning, flew out of Chicago that night with the transparencies from the photo shoots. And, um, I was on the cover of the Handweavers Guild of America with one of those photographs. And I also got a spread and an article in Ornament magazine, a full page in Santa Fe papers. So, you—photography is so important. But, I could not afford to do that again. So, I tried to take those. And I found Greg Hall in Joplin. He was—he had a studio with a company there, and he was a photographer for—we would meet after hours. These were two Seneca women that were from Seneca, MO. They modeled for me for 10 years. They were grandmothers, and they were still modeling [laughs]. She, she was a grandmother when she was still modeling for me, and her children were little when she had started almost.
[01:23:11.61]
They were perfect. And I would talk with Greg in the beginning. He was a good photographer, and he'd listen. And I felt like I got exceptional quality photos for, um, very little money. [Slide: three photographs of fashion models.]
[01:23:28.59]
So, again, now, the first one on the left is, uh, one of the blouses woven by my granddaughter. That was at the—it was sold in Santa Fe, but it—she wove it at the Eiteljorg Museum. And, um, the next two were just jackets that I made, military jackets. [Slide: three photographs of women modeling light colored outfits.] And again, these are flax outfits. And, um, I—the coat is a hunter's—Chickasaw hunter's coat. And the bags were gathering bags. And they're made out of the flax. And, um, also, the, the turbans—I love to wear turbans—and I do a lot of turbans. And then, the other, it's a piece that is—was scrapped from, from an experiment that I did. It was—I had woven in another garment.
[01:24:40.53]
But, you weave, like, 12 inches, and then you leave 24 inches of fringe, weave 12 inches, leave fringe. So, it's a lot of work. And then, you sew it together by hand and double the—and then, after you wash it, and it comes out, then you have to fringe it. So, um, that was an experimental piece. I was wanting to do something else. So. [Slide: two photographs of women in dark dresses.]
[01:25:11.02]
And these are my Chickasaw crow women. The first one, Chickasaws, we always have tiered skirts. I don't necessarily like these skirts. And so, I fitted around the waist down over the hips, and then, I tiered the bottom of it. And, then, oh, um, it's blues—it goes from blues, to purples, and to reds, at the hem in bands of color.
[01:25:45.16]
And then, I did a really—um, oh, what do you say—structured jacket to go with it. And she wears a turban. So, it's my modern-day Chickasaw—this was for in Grand Rapids, Michigan, a show there. And I like it when, um, I have an idea to begin with. And they said, "The fashion show would be make a grand entrance." So, I, I did two women and one man outfit. The man is in a military coat and has a top hat. And these are the women, and they came in together and made a grand entrance. So, they were Chickasaws.
[01:26:33.80]
And, um, the other piece on the right is a beaded, um, breastplate that, literally, zippers in. You can zipper it in or out. And she has tails. I think we have a back view of her also [slide: two photographs of models, from behind]. And for—she had tails like a crow. And this piece won a, um, Handweavers Guild of America award at "Convergence" one year. I was very proud of that. The other piece, I wore, um, when I lecture a lot. And I wore it at the Smithsonian when I was there to lecturing. So, it was a nice piece, nice piece [slide: photograph of model with a turban and coat].
[01:27:28.72]
This is the Chickasaw hunting jacket and it's in the MW Twill again. And I love to use that because it's my initials. And then, also, the turban on the top of it. Now, that's, that's a lot [laughs].
[01:27:57.88]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: That's a lot, but they're outstanding, Margaret. And these are just some of what you've made and [cross talk] just representative of a lot of the work that you've done in couture. And, um, I—you know, someone who's watching this may be surprised to know in the Native American fashion world we use the word "couture." And, um, so, that your work is highly regarded, shown in so many spaces, exhibitions, fashion shows, and then, sold to individuals all across North America and, maybe, beyond North America if they've found your pieces. And so, um, thank you for showing us this during this segment.
[01:28:50.71]
This is—it's really enlightening. It's interesting to hear about the different types of, uh, materials that you use and see the different styles that you've created and the work that goes into them. Uh, it'll—it's fascinating and lays a great ground—groundwork for our next session. And so, thank you very much.
[01:29:16.66]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Thank you, Laura. I've enjoyed it so much. It's, it's like reliving your life [they laugh]. it's fun. [Cross talk.]
[01:29:27.07]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Thank you. I'm going to stop our recording.
[END OF TRACK AAA_wheele22_6of7_digvid_m.]
[00:00:05.38] LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: This is Laura Marshall Clark, and I'm speaking with Margaret Roach Wheeler in her home in Sulphur, Oklahoma. It is October 24, 2022. And this is card five. Hi, Margaret.
[00:00:22.88]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: How are you?
[00:00:24.32]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: It's good to keep continuing. We've been working on some slides for people to see. And I think that they'll love seeing this—these, images so that they can get just a little insight into your life and into the work that you've done.
[00:00:40.71]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Okay. The—It really is probably the last 15 years, it brings us up to date. And, uh, my artist-in-residence contract with the tribe—the Chickasaw Tribe, so.
[00:01:03.79]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Okay. That would be good. And what year did that begin?
[00:01:07.93]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: 2006, I would say. I went to a listening conference. I believe, it was 2006, it might have been [200]5. I took my portfolio and presented it to Lona Barrick, who was head of Arts and Humanities at that time. And she introduced me, at that meeting, to Jerod [Impichchaachaaha'] Tate. And he was working on a project that he was presenting to the tribe. And they saw my fashion and my portfolio, and they were really interested in bringing me in to do the costumes and the stage set for that production. And that all began in—um, 2000—I think it was 2006. So, how many years is that? [Cross talk.]
[00:02:09.21]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Gosh, that's been—[Cross talk.]
[00:02:11.20]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: It'd be 16, 17 years.
[00:02:13.63]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Gosh. A long time. That's how long we've known each other [laughs].
[00:02:16.99]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: I know it. And it really, the Chickasaws took over my life at that time. And so, all the stuff that we have talked about, and the fashions and things, were before—I say Before Chickasaws, they were "BC," and then, the Chickasaws took over.
[00:02:36.91]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: So, [cross talk] just to give our audience a little background on Lowak Shoppala': It was a production, a big production, a stage production. And I'll let you talk about, uh, the principles you, Jerod Tate, and Linda Hogan, and [cross talk] a little bit about how that came about.
[00:03:04.37]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Well, I can—we met that day, for the first time. And then, they had me come down to Ada [OK]. I had never been to Ada before. And, um, had a meeting with them. At the first, meeting, I was so excited to be involved in that project. I was so impressed with Jerod Tate, and what he was doing, and his energy. And, um, and Linda was great to work with.
[00:03:41.22]
And the—we had the choreographer—the first meeting we had us all together, and he went through the different scenes he was wanting to do. Uh, I was staying at a hotel that night, and I couldn't sleep all night for planning the costumes and planning the stage set. Most of it was planned, what I was going to do that first night. He just, literally, um, set me on fire, more or less. And I could see it coming to life on stage, you know, with my costumes. So, it was a very exciting time for me.
[00:04:26.63]
To [cross talk] go back, in 2000, I had done a Smithsonian fellowship, and it was the textiles of the Mississippians that I had researched at that time. And I hadn't used that research, you know, until this came along. And I could, I could go back and use that. It was, it was just wonderful, absolutely, to be able to tie in the Smithsonian research in with one of the scenes from that, which was the clan scene. And I know we have slides of the clan scenes, so let's, let's look at those.
[00:05:08.96]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: And as I pull those up, just to, um, kind of, support the information that you're giving us, Jerod Tate is a classical composer. He's a Chickasaw classical composer. And he writes, uh, beautiful music, records a lot. And he put his music to a story written by Linda Hogan, who is a Chickasaw author and a Pulitzer Prize finalist. And so, um, they brought you in for the, the staging and—for the costuming. And it, it truly was a remarkable production and even goes on today, doesn't it? [Jerod Tate, “Clans,” performed at Carnegie Hall on March 12, 2024 –MRW]
[00:05:55.55]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes. They—go back to the slide—I think you have all three of us in the slide.
[00:06:04.19]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Yes. I'll, I'll show that one in just a minute. Do you want to start with your Smithsonian, um, find? [Slide: photograph of an aged textile.] Your, your discoveries first—[cross talk].
[00:06:14.84]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: The pictures I took of the fabric of the, uh, the textiles, that were taken from Spiro mounds at the Smithsonian. And you can see I resist—a resist in these—they're spirals. And I often wondered if—it never stated this in any of the records or anything—if they didn't use the mud, and I—some type of paste that they were creating to make these designs in the cloth. The next one.
[00:06:51.17]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: And—but—so, let's tell everyone the time period.
[00:06:54.33]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Oh. The—the Mississippians—or the Mound Builders, they were from 900, uh, to 1500 AD—that they were creating these. And these are in Spiro Mounds, which is in Oklahoma and eastern Oklahoma. When they found the mounds in the [19]30s—but really, they even had go back further than that. The Choctaws had—were—it was Indian Territory.
[00:07:36.12]
And they say there was a Choctaw woman that was on the land, and, uh, she protected the mounds for long—as long as she could, and when she passed away, the property went to others, and they started robbing. And they said they were dynamiting that mounds, and there were feathers flying and everything. But what could be left, um, was documented. Finally, OU [University of Oklahoma], Oklahoma University, came in and documented, and they got control of the mounds, but not till after a lot of things were stolen and destroyed.
[00:08:20.87]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: What kind of fiber is this fabric?
[00:08:23.87]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: In the fibers—you know, I could find out very little, but it was bast fiber, which means a plant fiber. We use the inner bark of mulberries. And, and the Mound Builders were the ancestors of the Chickasaws. That's why I was researching them. They use—in the fibers themselves, there would be, um, bird feathers—the fluff from the bird feathers. There were different kinds of plants that they would spin, and, um, all, all natural products, of course. Rabbit fur is found in it. So, it was a mixture of, of several things. [Slide: photograph of a carved, white shell.]
[00:09:11.95]
I also studied the shell carvings, and—because I could see the costumes. Now, this one is of, um, a raccoon, and you can't see it because it's upside-down here, but the raccoon, his face, and his legs. And the raccoon was very important. There's three of them here. And, um, it's—
[00:09:37.21]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I can see the raccoon face on the right and the body with his legs, and tail, and [cross talk] pointed nose.
[00:09:43.78]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes, yes. And they use them. And so, they were—I could see how they used the costuming, um, in, in these etched shells. It was very—so I took a lot of, lot of photos of shells. You can see my gloved hands here holding the, uh, the piece. [Slide: scan of illustrated text about pottery.]
[00:10:11.79]
And, of course, then looking at magazines, and people have, have taken the images off the pottery. And, um, then, I did a lot of research in the library looking at images and, and trying to keep as much as I could. I also went to Metropolitan Museum and took images out, out of their library. So, I would use those motifs when I was working. And, um, just the design.
[00:10:43.82]
But, here's Linda and Jerod and I when I was working on the, the costumes for Lowak Shoppala'. [Slide: three photographs of Lowak Shoppala’ creators.] Um, and—just in the titling of it and all—it—we just begin from scratch. And all three of us have worked on it. And never was a, an argument or anything. It was almost magical [laughs], the way we worked together. And it was just a wonderful, wonderful time. And so, these are three of the costumes that were used.
[00:11:23.04]
Only one time, I said something that, um—I told Jerod, I didn't really agree with Linda's writing about the skunk—and this is a skunk outfit I'm looking at. And she says, "My cute face." And I said, "These were warriors, you know. You wouldn't say 'my cute face.'" And he said, "Wait a minute, Margaret—yes, you would." And he convinced me that we would leave that in, um, the script for the skunk figure for being cute.
[00:12:00.29]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Um, and to add to the discussion, the words "Lowak Shoppala'" are Chickasaw for "fire" and "light." And it's the history of the Chickasaws, right, the production?
[00:12:11.29]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: It is. There were seven scenes. Each scene depicts a different period of time and a different story about the Chickasaws. It was, it was remarkable. It was magical the way it happened, and it came together. [Slide: two photographs of an aged textile and a dressed model.]
[00:12:31.38] And this piece, you can see on the left side, it's, it's a scrap from Spiro Mounds that I took at the Smithsonian. And, um, three colors are used in it. And, you know, you can't—they didn't have what the information was when I—in 2000, when I was there, but I, I was thinking of what colors would be used. And it was—and you could see imagery. I saw an eye, and I, then, wove it into the Minco’s robe, in the back. And you could barely see the image, but I used the eye and created a face and a hat. And, um, that's on—that tapestry woven into the back of his robe. The robe is out of linen. And the headdress, then, is feathers and woven fabric. And, um, this was the Minco.
[00:13:36.58]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Stunning. It's really beautiful. [Slide: thumbnail of a video.]
[00:13:38.94]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: So, to be able to use my research was wonderful. Oh, this is a video. You want to play the video?
[00:13:46.85]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I'm going to play the video and hope that it's recording the video, the sound. [Cross talk.] This is from the actual production. And it not only shows the clans—this is the clan scene, but also the music. It was played by an orchestra that was on stage in 80—let's see, I think it was 80 pieces, wouldn't it?
[00:14:10.18]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes. [86 –MRW]
[00:14:10.63]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: A big orchestra [laughs]. And it was uh,—you can't hear it on your end, but—so—but I'm hoping that it's recording on my end. So, I'm going to start it. It's only two minutes.
[00:15:01.68]
[Audio playback.]
[Inaudible.]
[00:15:03.18]
"At the end of the spoken, the song, the dreamed into light and to fire, that is when we are new and begin The clouds rise up. The tree of life has spoken through all the nights and the fires. All along the sacred forest and river and stone with its own words. The telling could begin. And once it begins, it may continue. One seed, one line, one thing, one word growing after another." [Inaudible.]
[00:15:35.80]
[End playback.]
[00:16:19.06]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: That was very powerful. Those are such powerful images.
[00:16:25.46]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: [Inaudible] you can see, the set was designed—I had. on stage, two mounds, and, um, the Minco was on the tallest mound, and he was calling out. And we had—it was in 2019, I believe, or [20]20 that, uh, the Oklahoma Philharmonic brought the clan back out and, and reused it, and we had the Minco go up in the balconies, and it was calling out to the clans. And so, that was exciting.
[00:17:07.77]
It was also brought out for the World Creativity Conference. And, um, we shot it, it there—and some of these images were from the World Creativity—the close-up. When I made—when you create things for the stage, you think they're going to be seen from a distance, and you don't worry about the machine stitching, and the glue guns, and things like that. They look good from a distance.
[00:17:39.72]
But, what I realized, um, with the World Creativity Conference, they had cameras that were getting close-ups of all the costumes [laughs]. And, and museums have called for them and are, are using them. And so, I have had to remake them. I know. I just made—remade the Panther Woman for the [National Cowboy and] Western Heritage Museum, the Cowboy Hall of Fame, they did a Spiro exhibit and asked for the Minco and the Panther Woman.
[00:18:18.23]
And that show traveled. It went to Birmingham Museum and into Dallas Art Museum. And I ask that I remake the costumes and make them museum quality. The Minco was all right, but I really needed to make over the, uh, the headdress and the dress from Panther Woman. These were worn—and that tattooing, the tattooing was painted on and it got—on the costumes. [Slide: photograph of Lowak Shoppala’ cast.] And so, we really had to freshen up before they could go. They're now in our cultural museum, in, um, you know, tissue paper and boxes, but they've been asked to come out twice, and that's, that's exciting for me, that my work can still be seen in museums. [cross talk].
[00:19:24.70]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: The, the tattooing was authentic, in terms of the imagery from the Mound Builders?
[00:19:31.18]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes. [Cross talk.] Um, Joanna Underwood and Trina [Jones]—helped.
[00:19:37.89]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: [Cross talk.]
[00:19:38.99]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yeah. They helped me with that. And we researched mound, mound building tattooing. And they even documented it on—so that, when we went to do a production, they had the paper that went of where the tattooing would be and what it was. And so, that was fun.
[00:20:00.60]
You can see on the Minco’sbreechcloth here, the front of it. There is a—um, it's a double-headed woodpecker, which is one—a symbol, icon that we see a lot in Mississippians. And that was silkscreened on the cloth. I silkscreened it on. And then, I unwove it and wove it back together so that it looked like it was in there. could not—um, in the weave structure, you—I don't have enough harnesses to do that intricate design work like that. So, this was a lot of challenges, um, to weave with feathers, and I took them all off of—except for two of them.
[00:20:53.04]
These pieces were taken off of shell carvings that I saw on the costume. The alligator is authentic down to the drawing that I saw. And so, um, that was very exciting to, to bring the Mississippians to life. Donna—one of the historians for the tribe, Donna Brown, said that she never thought she'd see the Mississippians living, and it was very exciting to see. It also amazed me that these men they brought in to wear the costumes, before I went—I thought, "Oh, no, but, they're not going to wear these." They own them [laughs]. I mean, they put them on, and they owned the characters. They said they felt so empowered, and it was—every, every model that came that day that I was designing the costumes for, um, they, they really enjoyed it.
[00:22:04.65]
They asked to come back every time we brought it back out. They asked—the same people asked if they can do it again. [Slide: two photographs of Lowak Shoppala’ actors.] So, it's been—it was a really wonderful.
[00:22:16.80]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Um, here's the Panther Woman up close. I thought you might want to talk about her—[cross talk].
[00:22:22.21]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes. It—this was taken from a 1500, um, drawing by John White. He was—if you remember the "Lost Colony" that we learned about, he came from England with his family and other people, and they settled a colony in America. And they met the Indians, and they worked with them. And he did drawings of the Indians and some of the rituals. And I have admired John White's paintings for years. And, uh, this is taken from one of his paintings. And it's a, a woman with an off-shouldered dress. And the breasts show in his paintings.
[00:23:18.69]
And, um, I later realized that that was Spanish moss that they were weaving in. I read an article that said that they wove with Spanish moss. And so, that fringe was Spanish moss., and he went back to England and left a—his—Virginia Dare was his grandchild, the first child that was born in—English child to be born in America. And he left his daughter, and son-in-law, and the baby, and he went back to England for more fortifications. And, when he got back, they had entirely disappeared. Uh, they aren't sure what happened to them.
[00:24:01.93]
So, I've used that image to create this costume, and the headdress came from an artist's rendering of, of, uh, the Lady of Ch—Cochiti? I'm—maybe not—but she was recorded during [Francisco V.] Coronado's exp—time, in 1500, when they came through. She was the Minco of that tribe, the Lady of Cochiti. So, um, they have a headdress that an artist had rendered, and I used that with shells in it and the feathers from that, that drawing I'd seen.
[00:24:46.22]
And really, the, the Raccoon Clan was, uh, my imagination. I felted, I wove wool, I rolled it up and felted that to come up with his headdress. And, um, it—again, I had to make these costumes, so that they were adjustable, that they could be worn because I didn't know the men who were going to be wearing them at that time.
[00:25:17.61]
And so, this one was like a wraparound skirt, almost. And Nathan was a huge man. And, uh, in another production—it was a smaller man in the thing, and it covered him much better than it did Nathan. But, Nathan wore that [laughs]. And, like I say, they owned the costumes. They just really—um, it looked—they looked the part. They looked the part of the Mississippians. [Slide: three photographs of posed Lowak Shoppala’ cast members.]
[00:25:57.93]
The Alligator is the first that you see here. You have the actual alligator claw of this head, headdress, and a stone and copper in the headdress. The Bird is a white-feathered cape, and then, the Minco that you see here. I think there were seven in total that—And Jerod wrote a different piece of music for each clan that had to do with, um—you could see the animal. The, the squirrel was fast and quick. And then the alligator was slow tempo. And they came out on stage from the mound in the—with their music. [Slide: two photographs of a man in a gray costume.]
[00:26:51.92]
And this is the Skunk. You saw a piece earlier, um, in the day that I was doing an experiment to see if it work, and it did, of weaving a certain amount, and then, leaving the warp long, weaving a solid piece, leaving the warp, weaving—and then, sewing them together and washing it, it gives this rippled fringe effect, And, uh, he had a—he was dark in front and, gradually, went around to a light back near—it was a skunk.
[00:27:32.78]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: It's really amazing.
[00:27:34.40]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Oh, he—again, that was imagination. And the—when he moved, the piece was really amazing. The movement of it. So, I, I loved it on stage. [Slide: two photographs of an aged textile and a Lowak Shoppala’ cast member.] And now, this is the, uh—from Spiro, again. It's a skirt. And you can see the circles that have been made. So, I wanted to weave that—circles in that. I used, um, bleach and used stenciling, it—to create them, where I think they used a resist and, possibly, mud. I mean, they lived by rivers and mud.
[00:28:26.20]
We have had a mud painting course, and I'll—you will see that later in this. So, this was the Squirrel Clan. He had squirrel tails hanging off of his belt. And that, that was a show. There were other scenes in it that I created all the costumes for. There was dance, there was singing, in it, but we're just showing you, today, the clan costumes. [Slide: two photographs of students in a studio.]
[00:29:02.36]
The Chickasaws—I was starting the artist in contract, just for Lowak Shoppala'. And, um, I was going to do that, and then, I'd go back to my regular life. And that took two years to plan and, and do the costumes for. And, um—but, the—Lona talked to me about the Arts Academy, and did I want to teach textiles? And I wasn't sure that I did. And I, I love teaching, and I had taught high school students for 10 years.
[00:29:39.30]
I said yes, that I would. And so, I designed a textile course. And each year was different. This—we're showing you pictures of the year that they—it was recycling. We had used—we have people donate clothing, and I brought clothing from the Salvation Army. And, and they had to choose what they could use and, um, make their outfit from that. And it was a fun class. It was really fun to see their imaginations at work.
[00:30:20.30]
And then—I think, I taught Academy for six years. [Slide: three photographs of a student with their design.] And I proposed to our governor, who you see in the third slide here, Governor [Bill] Anoatubby, I proposed to him that my students go to FIT [Fashion Institute of Technology]. I had met a lady at the Santa Fe Indian Market who was going to be the interim director at the FIT, Fashion Institute of Technology, in New York [NY], and told her I'd been thinking about a scholarship for my students at Academy. And in, those classes, eight was the maximum number you could get. And so, um, I proposed it to Governor Anoatubby, and he accepted the proposal. And so, we got to go to New York each year. We would go into summer [for a week of instruction for high school students –MRW].
[00:31:15.92]
And, um, the way we chose the students, I would always have guests teachers come in to teach whatever their expertise was. And then, we would have all the—they would get a vote. All the teachers would have a vote that we're teaching at Academy. And we had a—oh, I don't remember what it was called. Last night was a gala, and we would have a display of the work. Their designs, how they carried it out. And this was a, only a two-week workshop. And what we accomplished in two weeks, plus, we put on a fashion show. And our fashion shows [laughs] were really good, really good. [Cross talk.]
[00:32:06.80]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: They were amazing.
[00:32:08.31]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: They were amazing.
[00:32:09.66]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: And [cross talk] I wanted to give just a tiny piece of backstory to the Arts Academy. It was held every summer. It was two weeks. It was not only, um, middle school and high school students that were residential, but younger students that were day students, and it had multiple disciplines, didn't it?
[00:32:30.23]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes, yes. And I, I was a textile—it started out Jerod's proposal to teach classical composition to students and it just grew. He met with Lona, and, and it just grew into this fabulous—we had teachers—Karita Coffee would come to teach ceramic. She was at the IAIA, the American Indian—what is it? It's, it was—[cross talk].
[00:33:03.05]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Institute of American Indian Arts? Yeah. [They laugh.]
[00:33:06.44]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: It's in Santa Fe. And so, we had teachers coming from there to teach. And, and they had creative writing classes, and uh, it, it was just an amazing time. But, this is Jay Fife piece, and it was how he interpreted being half-Indian and half white living in both worlds, living in an Indian world and living in a white world, and carrying your Indian into that world.
[00:33:39.54]
And, uh, I think he accomplished it very well. And so did the governor. And he won for that year. I had girls go every year until then. He won the award. It was quite fun. He has since—going with the next slide, here he is working, but he went to New York and he got to see the China show at the Costume Institute at the Metropolitan. [Slide: two photographs of a young man.] He has since graduated from Harvard, and, um, it's just quite wonderful— he's Northern Cheyenne. He speaks Chickasaw, and he speaks Muskogee Creek. [Slide: two photographs of a young man in a museum.] He's an exceptional student.
[00:34:33.78]
But, here he is with his backpack. And we were going to the Museum of the Amer—American—in lower Manhattan. It's the old Customs building. And I always took the student there every year. And he actually found his, uh, people, the Northern Cheyenne, there. So, he's standing in front of a display with them, with his thumbs up. He—and he was a delight. He was just a delight to have. [Slide: one photograph of a young man in a museum.]
[00:35:02.88]
And here we are at the—um, I think, it's the Costume Institute. Oh. He's at FIT Museum. FIT had a small museum in there, and he was going through it. [Slide: photograph of weavers in a studio.] So, it was a wonderful program. And I loved the teaching and, um, being a part of it. And all the students, it was, it was really great.
[00:35:32.23]
Then, the Chickasaws, while that was going on, asked if I would open a weaving studio in Sulphur. And it was to, um, be across from the Artesian Hotel that they had just finished. They were remodeling an old building and making it into a gallery, store, and there would be six studio spaces. And, uh, I said yes. At this time, I was still doing Indian markets and, and lecturing to guilds, but I made the decision that I would do it, and I moved all of my looms down to Sulphur, which meant I had to really quit weaving, um, full-time.
[00:36:30.74]
I, I really wove most of the gar—garments for Santa Fe—I mean for my Indian markets, and, uh, it was becoming a chore. I had broken down my metatarsal arches in my foot from treading the weight of the, of the loom. And it was, um, a nice slowing down period. And we did that in 2010, I believe.
[00:37:05.03]
I opened, uh, Mahota Handweavers Studio. At COVID[-19 Pandemic], we had 14 weavers when they closed the studio. They didn't come—some of them didn't come every day. Some people came two days a week, some came once a week. And, um, we always had someone, two or three a day, in there. Not, not all 14 were there at one time. Did you see? I have floor looms, and I have table looms, uh, rigid heddle looms, inkle looms, all kinds of equipment.
[00:37:45.58]
And it was a wonderful camaraderie of people who didn't know how to weave—anything about it, were shocked that we were teaching weaving and were interested in taking it. So, um, it was very successful. It—so much so that I didn't get to weave very much. I did have my loom in there, and it's a very large loom. And, um, I have two of them. [Slide: one photograph of weavers at looms.] I have a 16-harness and my 72-harness, you can see the back of it here, and they're weaving.
[00:38:24.94]
We were crowded [laughs], but we were happy, and they turned out wonderful things. And, uh, go to the next slide. [Slide: two photographs of woven goods.] These are, uh, some of the garments that were entering shows, they were winning awards. That's a Beverly Callahan on the—the purple jacket. And then, uh, Joanna Underwood wearing a red shawl that came from the studio. Next one. [Slide: two photographs of models wearing shawls.]
[00:39:01.31]
Taloa [Underwood] was a weaver, and she wove this shawl—um, sort of a Mobius one-piece that's twisted. And so, she wove that. And then, also, one thing that we could not accomplish with the looms was to do the southeastern Indian iconography. I can't weave Mississippian circles and curves iconography. So, often, I would embroidery it onto the—so, that we would have that feeling onto it, and that's what this piece on the right is. [Slide: two photographs of a loom and a graphic.]
[00:39:45]
And another thing that was really wonderful about the work—about the, um, our workshops, we had nationally known teachers come in during the year and teach. We had, I believe, um, 10 workshops. Every month there was a workshop, except for Christmas. And we took off in September because we were getting ready for our annual meeting in SEASAM, Southeastern Art Market and Show.
[00:40:17.71]
But, we had, uh, courses planned. I would teach probably three a year, and then, we'd have six guest teachers in. And, and this was one of them, our "Painted Warp," and it was Suza Wooldridge who lives in Montana and, um, does the painted warps. Next shot. [Slide: two photographs of artists in a weaving studio.] Here we are in the workshop, all-white warps, or make our warp in all-white. We add dyes to that and, um, go through a process of painting them. Then, they're added to the loom. And, in that shot, Diane Hamel, she used to put black threads so that she's making a larger piece, um, extending a piece. And go to the next shot. [Slide: three photographs of a weaving and the garment made from it.]
[00:41:14.79]
And here, you can see it when it came off the loom, and what she did with them. Just really was sophisticated and excellent weavers. Diane had always wanted to learn to weave. She graduated from Oklahoma State University as a Home Ec[onomics] teacher, but she'd never had the chance to weave before. So, she bought a loom from me and she has an Etsy account, and she is, to this day, still weaving at home. [Slide: two photographs of a purple weaving.]
Another one of our workshops was a Shibori scarves. Um, Sharon Kilfoyle taught that to us—from Missouri. I met her through a Missouri fiber artist, but she has also taught in Japan, she has taught in Paris, um, and many other places, and came in and taught us. And oh, it—the teachers—the students love it. And this is Beverly Callahan. She's an excellent weaver. She started with me with my first class and is still there today, running the workshop. [Slide: photograph of a woman painting a textile.]
[00:42:30.84]
And I found this quite interesting, because I tried to tie in some, if I could, to our heritage. This is a mud, uh, painting. And we—Judy Cobillas from Cincinnati, Ohio, taught it, and she has been to Africa and studied it. But, you can get different colors of mud. We—and she had to collect mud from here. So, Beverly and I went out—we went—the river and we collected mud, and we collected—I had a dark brown mud, I found a light mud—dirt and a real red. And I brought those in. And then, other people brought their, their dirt in, and we mixed it with a, um, uh, a mixture of—I can't remember quite what it was Judy had. And, literally, painted our designs on in them.
[00:43:34.85]
We had to let them sit for three to six months before we washed them. And—but, I, I think this is what the Mississippians were doing often in their clothing. [cross talk].
[00:43:50.00]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: —painting here, is she painting on muslin?
[00:43:52.70]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes, cotton. And, um, our workshop, we supplied everything for the students and that—that the Chickasaw did. But, you can see how dark the, the—you can get this dirt, and then, how red you can get it. Judy did, but I, I loved it. [Slide: photograph of a group posing with garments.] This was an indigo workshop, um, and you can just see the different patterns that they're doing in the indigo that we learned how to indigo dye. [Slide: three photographs of outdoor scenes.] And, on the land here, I, I have, um, put on—every year, I would do two workshops of natural dyes, and we would go out, and we'd collect, um, flowers, anything we could—wanted to see that would work. And we foraged for them.
[00:45:01.48]
This day, it was really raining. It was the best, best colors that we got was that day. We have osage orange, which is the bodark tree. That gives a great yellow and orange color. This was a spring workshop, and they picked flowers, little yellow flowers. And I—we have cactus around here, and there's little webs on the cactus. And you can get the little beetle, [laughs] more or less, that make the web. And if I—I wouldn't collect them. I would get cochineal from—uh, commercial cochineal that you can buy from dye houses, but I could find one locally, and we could match it into the red color.
[00:45:52.93]
[Slide: photograph of an arrangement of goods on a table.] We have the holiday market. The Chickasaws have about three markets a year that we can participate, and there's more coming up. There's a holiday shop in, um, Ada now that seems to be open most of the time. It's just going to be open for all the holidays that we could do. And now, it's open almost all the time.
[00:46:32.21]
I was given by—the University of Arkansas gave me something. It's called kenaf project. And it's a yarn that was out of Africa that they gave me to create some products with when I—before I had come to Chickasaw. And, um, I couldn't figure out how to use it, and I used it in one of my sculptural pieces and gave that to them. But, they [laughs] left me with so much of it, I have spool upon spools of thread.
[00:47:26.61]
And so, what we do it—I found out, I thought of, if we weave it into soap bags and into washcloths, it has a real texture. And I, I use it a face cloth, and it's, um, it's, it's textural. So, it scours the face. And they're really wonderful. And we sold a lot of those. And—when I was weaving, we did. But then, you see the other things that we do. We do red mud, some small, small pieces, pillows, and shawls, and simple garments. And they—we had also come up that year with the Christmas ornaments. And there's some rugs there I see, too.
[00:48:16.46]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: And this gives the weavers from the studio a place to sell their work, doesn't it? [Cross talk] all the weavers in your studio can put work in the art market.
[00:48:28.31]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Yes. Well, they—um, I have non-Native weavers, as well as—non-Natives and Natives in the workshop. And most of the markets were for the Natives, only.
[00:48:46.59]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Okay.
[00:48:47.49]
[Slide: screenshot of Mahota Textile’s webpage.]
[00:49:20.34]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: So, so that ended in COVID. So, while I was there, like I mentioned before, it's very difficult in, in loom weaving to get—um, you don't have enough harnesses to do the circular designs that you need for doing the icon—iconography of the Mississippians. And I kept thinking—even before I came with the Chickasaws, I had looked into buying a, a computerized loom. I didn't do that. It was too expensive, and it was—I could only weave a small piece of cloth. And, um, I think it was 42,000 dollars for the loom, and it would only leave like 10 inches wide.
[00:50:14.76]
It would mean working on a computer all the time, and I decided that wasn't for me. I was a more spontaneous weaver, making my patterns up as I went, and I just could not see myself sitting at a computer, and then, having two pedals to push and just show the shuttle. So, I didn't buy the loom. And, uh, I looked at mills that I could go to, that I could, um, take courses from, and I didn't do that either.
[00:50:52.48]
So, when I came with the Chickasaws and opened the weaving studio, I thought, "This could make a great business for the Chickasaws, so that we could weave our designs and do it commercially." And I put a proposal together. Joanna John, who is the assistant manager of the Artisan Gallery, she helped me put together the proposal, and she was real excited to do that. And we presented it to the governor, and he accepted it.
[00:51:26.88]
So, um, Mahota Textiles was then born. And on—the next slide—so, we had to come up with a logo. [Slide: a circular graphic and a textile ad.] And, since Mahota was my grandmother, she’s the little central circle. And then Nancy Mahota is the next circle. And then, a Juel is the next circle out, my grandmother. And, then Rubey, my mother. I'm the last circle. And we wanted it to be like a tree rings. Not perfect circles, but circa. And, um, time, heritage, all would be in that logo, and that is the logo we have.
[00:52:28.62]
And we've had to brand ourselves. We had to get photos. We had to go through a Chickasaw "Shark Tank." And, um, the Chickasaws brought in people from the First Americans Museum in, uh, Oklahoma City. I—there were other people they brought in from different departments that were on the jury. And we had to have our display, we had to have product, and we had to have marketing in our business plan. And we got all that together. We went to the Chickasaw, uh, "Shark Tank." We presented our product, and they said we had exceeded their expectations. And they gave us permission. So, we are a Chickasaw-owned business. Go to the next one, please. The next slide.
[00:53:28.67]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: I just paused it for a second. Um, I am—I've got to go let the dogs out. They're, they're really raising a ruckus in my bedroom. And so, [cross talk] it will take me one minute. Just a minute.
[00:53:41.33]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: I'll go to the bathroom.
[00:56:04.45]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Okay. No, wait. see a big dog walking by, and my dogs are so excited. Okay, we're going to resume.
[00:57:44.12]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Okay, we're going to wrap this up.
[00:57:46.13]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Okay. We're going to land this 757, huh?
[00:57:51.32]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: That's right.
[00:57:52.31]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: [Laughs] all right. I have no idea if we're—I think we're still recording [cross talk]. But, we get them to take it out when we take a break.
[00:58:02.93]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Okay. Well, if we go to the next slide. [Slide: two photographs of interior spaces.]
[00:58:07.33]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Okay.
[00:58:11.36]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Our first mill was in North Carolina. And I had designed all three blankets. And I had to design them on a, um, a computer that I'd gotten from them that was a real old computer. And, after we'd had the first blankets and we sent designs for our pillows and our purses, they let us know that we couldn't work with this anymore, and we were devastated.
[00:58:40.28]
And, um, we had already advertised, and had photos done, and everything done. And we couldn't find the American mill. We were bound and determined to keep the product in America. And, after six months, we found a mill in Pennsylvania, and, um, it's it is wonderful. And they have many looms, where the other mill was the small mill, it had five looms. This one has hundreds of looms. You can see, looking down the aisle here, you—on each side, there's looms working all the time. And, um, they are an ancient mill. They st—are from France. They came to America and set up business, and, um, the day, we were there touring, the owner from France was there.
[00:59:44.65]
And these are all samples on the right of every tapestries—ev—every bit of weaving they've done. They have books and books. And it, it's so wonderful to be associated with them. They are—they say we're good clients, and, uh, we're very small for them to take us on. We don't do a lot of business. We're just now getting into reordering. And so, it was a great coup for us to find them and have—be working with them.
[01:00:20.02]
The next slide. [Slide: photograph of a textile laid on a table.] This was—we go in and look at a slide. We do an artist series. This is Joanna Underwood. She is a Chickasaw potter. And, uh, her—so, for her design, she wanted to do her pottery. And so, this blanket is a sample, we don't like the colors, we write on—we put everything on there to say, uh, what we want changed on it. So, we get a sample 'til we get the blanket exactly like we want it. Next slide. [Slide: two photographs of a family and a bedroom.]
[01:01:38.55]
In our—we outgrew the little studio we were in. We were renting a studio from the Artisan, uh, Galleries and Studios, and we outgrew that in about six, seven months. We could not—it was too tiny. We were having to get the blankets, wash them, cut them, apart wash them, um, commercially—laundry—was washing them. And give them back, box them, and sell them. It was, it was—we were just confined. There were only about three of us working.
[01:01:38.55]
So, we found this studio—or this building. It is owned by the Chickasaws. And, um, they built a wall up—and we have a showroom. And in that showroom, I, I have a local woodworker. He worked with me to do, uh, anything I asked. And in this one scene, you see my family. That's my grandson and his son. So, that's two of the Diamonds. And my husband, and then, myself. And if my son was there, you'd see five generations of Wheelers. But, behind me is a fireplace that had been built for the showroom that year. And our showrooms were fun, always exciting to see. And they changed by the seasons every quarter. And I was responsible for doing those.
[01:02:36.69]
I'm not responsible for the business, thank God. We had, uh, Taloa Underwood who did our designs. After we hired her, I had done the first three to get it started, and then, she did it and a guest artist. We turned out three blankets a year. One is for the guest artist, and two that we design in-house and use all Southeastern symbols. Next slide. [Slide: image of a listing of several blankets.] And these were our—the bottom are our first series. And those are the ones I designed. And we have sold out of the Chickasaw map. And we have a new map that just came out. And, um, the—Taloa designed those, and then, you saw the one that Joanna Underwood, our Artist Series, and that's a little bit more expensive. The quality of the, the—they're all cotton. The quality is much thicker, and it's a nicer blanket than we were getting from the first mill. [Slide: photograph of a man wrapped in a blanket.] This is Dustin Hoffman—Dustin Mater—[They laugh.]
[01:03:52.08]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Really? [Cross talk.]
[01:03:54.03]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Dustin Mater. And he designed—he was the artist the second year. And he designed The Brothers. And this is a story of the Chickasaws and Choctaws and how they separated—they were one tribe, and they separated into two tribes, and that mythology that, that he has in his blankets. [Slide: image of a listing of several blankets.]
[01:04:19.54]
So then, then, these are—the third year's on the bottom. You see that we have Dustin's in the middle, and then, two of Taloa's on either side. And this, then, is, uh, the [20]22 blankets. Our guest artist is, um, a young girl. She just graduated from the Institute of American Indian Art in Santa Fe, and—Faithlyn Seawright. And she designed the white dog, and the white dog—all of our blankets have stories about them, but the white dog, um, was with the Chickasaw and Choctaws. The people who—we followed a pole. And when we crossed the Mississippi River, the white dog disappeared. And it's believed that she is in the stars.
[01:05:10.48]
And so when someone dies, you say, "He's gone on the path of the white dog, he's gone to the Milky Way." And so, that's our, our new Chickasaw map. And this was a map in 1735 on a piece of rawhide that the map—it's come from. It was given to the English. And, um, in it, I had some Mohawk friends here. Um, Carla, and, um—she was teaching a quilting class. And when I took them out to the cultural center, Babe, her husband, said—uh Babe Hemlock said, "Oh my gosh, this is clear up into our country, the Mohawks in Canada and New York State." It depicted the world of the Chickasaws and their paths that they cross at that period of time. And then, the wind is, uh, Taloa's design. [Slide: online listing for pillows and blankets.]
[01:06:19.38]
And then, the, the new blankets are coming out, um, in—for [20]23. I think we will get them in February. So, we have scarves, we have totes, we have pillows, we also have a crossbody purse that we have. And we've got two scarf designs. We have more coming. [Slide: two photographs of women modeling blankets.] We have photoshoots from magazines. This is a magazine that came, uh, Native Peoples, and—or Native—anyway, and did a photoshoot using our blankets. [Slide: two photographs of a mural.]
[01:07:05.46]
And, um, this was a mural that we commissioned, by Brent Greenwood, to be on the side of our building. And it was a marketing thing, also. People had come, and they have their pictures made against it. And it is a compilation of, of our blankets, three of our blankets. It's the sun symbols, the sweetgrass, and the river designs, and Brent painting down the Mahota Textiles. [Slide: two images of a carved shell and its needlepoint representation.]
[01:07:44.01]
And this is—he's called the "Spaghetti Man." It's a, um, piece from 1500. And I used it as the last slide because it—I used it for a needlework. This is a cross-stitch that I did. It was in an exhibit. And, um, COVID, sort of, ended the weaving studio. COVID happened, and they closed everything down. I came home and realized how exhausted I was. And, uh, I never caught COVID, thank goodness, but it just made me think, I'm, you know—I was going to be 80 years old in a year and a half and, and—when they closed the studio. And I was on a fast track, working both businesses, plus keeping my own, uh, business open and doing shows, exhibits. And I just realized, I was doing too much.
[01:08:58.77]
And so, one thing I gave up was the weaving studio. And I donated all my looms. Um, I kept six of them in the studio, plus the rigid heddles, and the table looms, and six floor looms. And some of the weavers stayed on. It is now called the Tanni’ Weavers. That is textiles in Chickasaw. And they are carrying on. I go in once a week. I have a loom. I weave on it, and—but I'm not responsible for the planning, for doing anything [laughs], for the buying of the yarns, keeping the looms in order. I, I've given that up, so I was real happy that my life was going to slow down, and, uh, when COVID was over, I was still doing the textiles.
[01:10:01.92]
And, um, that's when I had the stroke, last May. And so, I had just turned 79 in April. And I said—someone was telling me to really slow down. "You should quit." And so, I resigned from Mahota Textiles. I lost the use of my right hand. I couldn't design anymore on the computer. And, um, said, "We, we can afford now to hire somebody to, uh, help with the computer graphics." And Taloa had left us in—it was just—it was, it was time. It's good. so, in a way, it was a blessing. I was forced to say, "No." I now have a reason to say, "No," when people call. And, um, it started with COVID of saying "No, I can't do that anymore."
[01:11:07.06]
So, all I am now responsible for, I'm on the board—um, or to—it's not a board of directors, but it's a advisory board for Mahota. My son is on it. My nephew is on it, too. He's a lawyer in Phoenix [AZ] And my great- niece is on the board. So, there are four members of Mahota on the board at Mahota Textiles. And we have quarterly meetings. I am no longer responsible for the showroom. And it's—I have a small loom, and I work in my home studio, and—but I don't have to go every day. And I, I am weaving something down at the other studio in town, in Artesian. And so, my life has become very calm.
[01:12:05.14]
And I'm saying, "No," when people call. I was, I was asked to speak at the University of Georgia, um, last week for the Woman's Heritage, Native American Heritage Month, and I should say, "No," because my voice isn't up to par, it's not what it used to be. And so, it's, it's good, in a way, that I really have the power to say, "No," now. A reason for saying, "No.". And I'm excited about my future of what, what will come in the next 20 years.
[01:12:48.10]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: And, um, I want to add, too, that you've worked very hard to regain all—the mobility in your right hand, haven't you?
[01:12:59.83]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: I've been trying to. I still have trouble writing. I couldn't write at all. Uh, I couldn't write my name, I couldn't do that. And I'm—but, I still—I haven't regained it to draw and to work on the computer. And, um, I'm not anxious to get to that. I've never liked working on the computer. I just learned it because I had to. And, um, I'm—I can weave. That does not take a lot of dexterity. It's just, literally throwing the shuttles and pushing the treadles. And I immediately realized I could tie knots, and, um, that I'm doing. I practice my needlepoint or cross-stitch. I'm doing, well, a great-grandchild stocking and finished another grandchild's up—so, I am trying to get those skills back.
[01:14:01.48]
And, um, it's, it's coming slowly. It'll be six months in November, and, and—but, walking is the easiest part of it. I, I, I walk in the park regularly.
[01:14:16.54]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Well, I've been amazed at your recovery and your diligence to your rec—your dedication to your recovery. And we applaud you for that. It's been amazing to—uh, you know, and just a thrill to see you just getting strength every day. And, and you walk further than me. I mean, I'm—it's embarrassing to, to look at my own, my [laughs] own lack of attention to that area when I see the hard work you're doing. [Cross talk.]
[01:14:50.98]
Margaret, this has been so rich. And, uh, I hate to see it come to an end. Let me ask you a couple of fun questions before we bring this to a close. [Cross talk.]
[01:15:04.59]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: You want to take "Spaghetti Man" down?
[01:15:07.47]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Yes. Let me stop sharing. Thank you, yes. I forgot we could [they laugh]. So, yeah, I'd rather see your face. [Sneezes] excuse me. So, now that you have slowed down and—you know, you had more projects than we saw here. I mean, this was a big part of your life, but you had many other projects. Um, I, I will name one that I was involved in and still am, and it's an exhibition that is still on view at the Choctaw Cultural Center called Chiefs, Clans, and Kin. And you have four pieces in that, um, woven pieces. And three of them are sculptured—they're molded body casts that you've covered with weaving, and they're outstanding.
[01:16:03.78]
And, um, and [cross talk]—so—I'm sorry, go ahead.
[01:16:07.95]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: They've been done since COVID. So, yeah, there, there have been new pieces.
[01:16:14.68]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Yeah. Well, so now that you are finding that, uh, you have more time on your hands, what do you do for recreation? What is fun in your life for you?
[01:16:31.19]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Jigsaw puzzles. Um, one thing, the dexterity of picking up and trying to do the entire—I've done a 1,000-piece puzzle of my great-grandchild and her parents, um, that was—took me quite a while to do. It took me several months. And I put another one up now that I—Chris Pappan, the FAM [First Americans] Museum, and it's a real difficult puzzle, 1,000-piece puzzle. I bought a puzzle board that I can move it around.
[01:17:09.14]
So, I, I work jigsaw puzzles. I work—and the thing was, in, um, the rehabilitation center, they were having me do these things. So, I feel like they're physical therapy, where before if I worked on one, I felt like it was frivolous waste of time. And now all at once, it's, it's necessary. I do—and I don't think I lost any mental capabilities in the stroke. I was very fortunate in that. It was just the right side. And so, I enjoy solitaire games and things like that.
[01:17:51.36]
And I get to the—I have a—the Diamond Studio here, and I go down to the cottage and try to weave once a week, and then, I go to the Artesian and weave. But, Chickasaws also have a retreat, um, that I can go out there. It's 13 miles out. But, it's a wonderful gym that I can rehabilitate at and a swimming pool. I can—I try to walk a mile in the swimming pool. And then, I walk two miles in the park. And, um, I have exercises which [laughs] I am lax of doing, that they have given me for home. I'm, I'm not getting any home help now, but, um, I was earlier. And I'm, I'm trying to find a gym that has yoga or Tai Chi. I think those would be good for balance.
[01:18:55.46]
And so, really, my life stays quite full. And, um, you saw me not last weekend, but the weekend before last, I received an honor in Durant [OK] from the, from the Semple Museum, be on their board. I realized that I have to put time in where I'm resting a lot. I, I wear out very, very quickly. And so, um, that's something I've learned: to pace myself and don't overtax myself. And you've been very gracious in allowing me to do that and doing small sessions instead of longer sessions. And, um, and it worked. I'll be glad when my voice is better. That it's more natural for me to talk. And that's the only thing that's real—holding me back now.
[01:20:02.63]
I'm very excited that I'm getting to go to—Wednesday, I leave for, um, my granddaughter's graduation with her doctorate degree in—it's at George Washington University, this coming Thursday. And so, I am traveling some, and—but again, I let them know that I have to have my downtime and rest. We did that in New York, and I did fine. So—[cross talk].
[01:20:34.66]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Yes, you did—that trip to New York was really phenomenal and got to see your work at the Met, and be with family, and do some fun things. [Cross talk.] Well, thank you for your time, Margaret. We're so honored, seriously, to be able to spend this time with you, for you to graciously, generously give of your time and share your life with us. Thank you very, very much. [Cross talk.] And your art practice is just remarkable.
[01:21:06.29]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Thank you, thank you. I was afraid that my voice wouldn't hold up. So, I hope, I hope it has been good, that it's—[cross talk].
[01:21:16.03]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Yes, it's been wonderful. Thank you for being diligent to hang in and, and, uh, you know, put up with my, my PowerPoint slides and trying to support what you're talking about [laughs]. [Cross talk.]
[01:21:31.42]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: We could probably have more slides than we had, but that helped me so much in not—you know, in the talking. So, it had—that helped.
[01:21:44.81]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Well, and we look forward—now that I know your eightieth birthday is coming, I think that we're going to have to have a nice get-together [laughs]. I'm already planning it.
[01:21:58.82]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: So, I get to rest [laughs].
[01:22:01.91]
LAURA MARSHALL CLARK: Margaret, thank you again. We appreciate you. Thank you so much. And thank you for all you've done for the Chickasaw Tribe and, uh, Native American art.
[01:22:13.01]
MARGARET ROACH WHEELER: Thank you, thank you.
[END OF TRACK AAA_wheele22_7of7_digvid_m.]