Oral history interview with Kathryn Burch Greywacz, 1964 Mar. 24

Transcript

Preface

The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Kathryn Burch Greywacz on March 24, 1964. The interview took place in Trenton, New Jersey, and was conducted by Richard Keith Doud for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. This interview is part of the Archives of American Art's New Deal and the Arts project.

The original transcript was edited. In 2022 the Archives created a more verbatim transcript. This transcript has been lightly edited for readability by the Archives of American Art. The reader should bear in mind that they are reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose.

Interview

RICHARD DOUD:  This is an interview with Kathryn Greywacz held at the New Jersey State Museum in Trenton, March 24, 1964. [Recorder stops, restarts.] Well, I think a good place to start would be with your personal background in the arts, what your special interest was, and this sort of thing, before you actually had been associated with the PWPA and the WPA and all the other alphabets.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Well, I came to the museum in 1917—that's a good many years ago—in December, as an assistant to the curator, who had—who was planning to go overseas. When she left for Europe during the war period, I was asked to take over the museum functions and activities, which I did. Upon the return of the curator, she decided that she would no longer stay with the state museum after being here, I think, for about a month or two months after returning from Europe. She decided that most of the work that the museum had been planned, and we sort of established a set program for the amount of space that we had, because it was very limited. It was chiefly permanent collections and the natural sciences, geology, very little archeology, and practically nothing in the art fields.

So we had begun, at that period, a series of loan exhibitions. I organized a statewide committee, and we assembled various loan collections, either borrowing them from larger museums or individual collectors, or other museums in the state like Montclair and Newark. And it—people became very conscious of the fact that they needed this art program. And we also tried to have lectures that would supplement the special exhibits. That was the beginning, really.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Then when we had practically no space left for exhibition and programs, we went in storage for about two years until they built this statehouse annex. In it, we were assigned the quarters that we have now. There, again, when we opened it in 1929, the fall, we learned that we had practically no space for art exhibits or anything but the natural sciences. We then assigned two of the rooms—galleries for loan collections. We went through the same procedures we did on a smaller scale before. We enlarged the committee. In fact, we still have the arts committee of the state museum. It's still functioning. It's comprised of about 36 key women from different parts of New Jersey. They have their own elections. They select their own people. They have to have a real interest in the arts, an education. The commissioner approves the appointments now, so that they do have some official standing [laughs].

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  This committee has been perfectly wonderful in helping us collect either decorative arts collections, fine arts, either from the old schools or modern art exhibits, sculpture exhibits. And this has been going on since—and also, programs. Then we went into the field of music and had concerts and children's programs—special children's programs, demonstrations of art and music, finger painting for children. So, this interest spread so. And through our catalogs, we became very well-known not only in the state but interstate. And even got responses from other countries—heard from them that they would like to have our catalogs and our announcements and copies of the program. So, we felt that we were doing something that the people needed, even though we had a very small area and no auditorium.

[00:05:00]

We decided to leave the whole center of our main hall—which you can notice when you go out around the fountain—leaving that open or having only portable things so that we can set up chairs at a moment's notice and have people—we work with people as well as our collections.

RICHARD DOUD:  Good.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  So I think that has—that was one reason why the capital—state capital development commission went along with the idea that we needed new buildings, an auditorium—they were adverse to that to begin with—an orientation room, workshop areas, art vaults and also an art workshop so that—I think now that—with the space that we will be having in the state cultural center—because we'll have the main museum building, the auditorium, a planetarium for the sciences, and a space nearby for exhibits, as well as a youth museum, which is underground, something unusual. [They laugh.]

So, the—I feel that very shortly we can convince these same men and legislators who are agreeing with us that we need this vast—what they think is a vast area that's going to be turned over to us in the fall—we hope the construction will be done by then—that they will again listen to our plea to have a separate building—another building of art, and possibly a wing for technology exhibits. Because then we will have a fairly good rounded out program for New Jersey, for I feel that we shouldn't just simply take one section of our activities or our contributions. Even though natural sciences was the beginning. That was—

RICHARD DOUD:  I see.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —our main, important beginning.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, I think you've done a good job in getting as much for the museum as you have already, considering—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I think so, really.

RICHARD DOUD:  —the complex problems.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  But you see, figures do not lie, because we were able, with our reports, to show how many people we were reaching.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And for a small institution, it is quite remarkable. Oh, another thing that we did, when we were in storage in the interim of waiting for this building, we stressed our circulating collections. We had lantern slides. They called them that. They weren't two by two [they laugh], they were standard size. So, I—we had charts of various subjects, art prints, art slides, as well as science and industry and some on geography, and so on, so that we built a terrific—what should I say?—activity just in the circulating of collections. The schools were the prime borrowers. However, we do work with the community organizations. So, that is a terrific field that has been developing. And with the advent of these 16 mm educational films, that has just grown by leaps and bounds. In fact it grew so fast that Governor Driscoll, when he was in office, said that he felt that we should have centers throughout the state to have a master collection here at the museum. So, they do have, now, audiovisual centers in each county.

RICHARD DOUD:  Oh, I see.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And it's partly supported by matching funds with the state and the counties. We have a collection here. Supposedly it is to include mainly the specialized subjects that the centers either cannot afford to purchase—for instance, the film would cost—say, the Williamsburg film—$250 to print for a color print [laughs].

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  A center would not put that much in its library—

RICHARD DOUD:  Sure.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —which probably wouldn't be used every day. They would have basic subjects, whereas we are taking these unusual subjects. We have quite a series of art films and—as well as science and all sorts of subjects.

RICHARD DOUD:  I was looking at your list or your catalog of films out there a while ago—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

RICHARD DOUD:  —16 millimeters. It's quite impressive.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  It really is. And—

RICHARD DOUD:  It's amazing.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —I am hoping that they will permit us to continue to develop that particular phase of museum activity in the new building. There is sort of a feeling, well the centers ought to take the whole load and that we could then concentrate on three-dimensional materials. And—

RICHARD DOUD:  It's asking quite a bit.

[00:10:10]

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  It is. Particularly when this was started—this loan idea—even before we started with only room storage, in, let me see, I think, 1913, the early museum.

RICHARD DOUD:  [Inaudible.]

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  What they did, they took duplicate collections of minerals, rocks, birds, mammals, and shipped them, with cases, to various schools. Then they started quite a start—assembling a large collection of color slides. They had all sorts of subjects. That is our basic collection. And we took over and broadened it.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, would it be fair to go back to, say, before 1917 and try to find out how you happened to get into the museum business in the first place?

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Well, I originally thought I was going to devote almost all my years to voice culture. I started it—

RICHARD DOUD:  Oh.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —as, oh, maybe my early teens. But I lived at Hightstown, which, of course, is a small community. And Peddie School is there, and they had very good voice instructors that came from New York: Paul Schubert [ph] and Paul—Carl Dice [ph]. And some of them even taught, you know—what are they called? Working with opera singers and so on. And I took lessons from them and did a great deal of nearby concert work. I felt I would make that my main point of life.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  So, that—my father had the idea that I should not go to college when I finished high school, that I should develop voice. But shortly after that time, when I graduated, both my mother and father died very suddenly and 20 days within one another—

RICHARD DOUD:  Oh, my.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —so that I had to go out and do some work. [Laughs.] I therefore studied stenographic—stenography and typing and learned of examinations that were being given in the state. I did try one year of school teaching on a—what do they call it? A temporary certificate or something. [Laughs.]

RICHARD DOUD:  Yeah.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And I loved it, with the exceptional discipline. It didn't quite agree with me. And I didn't like it so well, so I decided that I would come up to the statehouse and take some of the examinations. And I did accept a job. My first job was the museum.

RICHARD DOUD:  Is that right?

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Assistant to Ms. Perry [ph]. And, of course, I liked the things that we were doing, and working with people and so on. So, that was how I got into museum work. Oh, another thing was I had—before I took the exams, one of the high school professors saw me in a trolley car in those days, in Trenton [they laugh] and said, Well, what are you doing?  And I said, I'm teaching at school.  He said, Don't, Ms. Burch—my name was Kathryn Mary [ph] Burch then— Please don't go on and do that.  He said, With your ability at the various things that we have done at the school—at the high school, I think you should be in the public light more.  So, that—he's the one that told me—he also became a civil service commissioner. And he told me a—or secretary, I guess it was—

RICHARD DOUD:  Uh-huh [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —position. And he told me about the examinations at the state. And then, when this opening came, he suggested that I come up for an interview. And that's the way it all came about.

RICHARD DOUD:  A little inside pull. [Laughs.]

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I think it was, really. [They laugh.] Well, I wouldn't have known if there was such a thing as a museum then, because—

RICHARD DOUD:  No, probably not.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —it hadn't had that much publicity and hadn't—it had just been reorganized. They had, oh, sort of old—everything sort of mixed up. An old typewriter would be alongside of ostrich eggs, and things like that. Whereas Ms. Perry [ph], who was my predecessor, had just finished cleaning house and getting an orderly museum out of it when I came along, so I was very fortunate.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, you've been here about, what, 15 or 16 years then, when the Public Works of Art project came into being.

[00:15:05]

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  That's right. Yeah.

RICHARD DOUD:  How did you—I think you were on the regional committee. Is that right?

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I was, yes.

RICHARD DOUD:  How did you happen to be selected for that? Did the regional chairman—the director pick you? Or from Washington?

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Well, I joined the American Museum Association very early and attended all of their conferences. And I knew most of the directors of the museums. And I traveled, visiting museums, so that when—they knew what I was doing—what we were doing here at the state museum, what we were striving for. And as I said, our special exhibits became quite famous for a small place, really.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And I think they felt, well, she's had some experience here in these fields, working with these various collections, that I think she know—oh, we worked with the artists. We were having work of New Jersey artists, painters, sculptors, and so on, printmakers, so that I knew the field pretty well.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, Mr. Kimball was the regional director.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes, I knew him personally.

RICHARD DOUD:  Did he have the final say? In other words, did he sort of handpick his committee? Or was—were you appointed from—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I think he did. Wasn't he chairman?

RICHARD DOUD:  Yes, he was.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes. So, I think he felt Trenton—well, Kathryn Greywacz is at Trenton. She's the—at the capital. Then, you see, Newark and Montclair Museum were in the New York area.

RICHARD DOUD:  Yes.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  So they were—I'm sure Newark had somebody on that committee from the New York region. I'm not sure.

RICHARD DOUD:  I should know—yes, I should know who—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yeah.

RICHARD DOUD:  —but I don't—I can't recall now.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I don't know.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, essentially, though, this museum and the Newark Museum were really the only two museums, that is, in New Jersey at the time. Or were—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  You mean [inaudible]?

RICHARD DOUD:  Of any—of any import.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  The Montclair Art Museum was very important.

RICHARD DOUD:  That's right.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And they have—of course, they were privately endowed. And I didn't think you have to work so hard [laughs] for a privately endowed museum, as you do for a state institution, do you?

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, they'd probably argue [Kathryn Greywacz laughs] with you, but I think you're probably right.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Well, I—we have to prove the state worth of the museum, even now. You exist from one year to another. You have a budget to—a request to put in. You have to prove all of those requests.

RICHARD DOUD:  That's true.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  You're never sure how much you're going to get. In fact, there was a period when we were left out of the budget. And they thought, Well, is a museum necessary? But afterwards, the governor at that time said to me, Well, we were thinking of having funds for some sort of soldiers—military men. And we weren't sure—oh, and we needed taxes.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And some of the other states found out that if they closed down on services that the people really wanted, you would get taxes through. [They laugh.] So, the library services and the museum services were omitted from the budget that year. And there was a terrific organization that got underway. I couldn't do it, because our—the director of the Department of Education is a member of the cabinet of the governor. He could not go out and fight the governor's opinions—

RICHARD DOUD:  Sure. Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —or his beliefs, so that we had a council—an advisory council then, one of the members said, Whether I'm kicked off the council or not, because I'm appointed by the governor, I am going to tell the people what's happening here. Otherwise, they wouldn't have known.  He organized, sent out announcements of what was happening to the museum. They had a hearing in the statehouse. And we had—the legislature heard from over a million people.

RICHARD DOUD:  [Inaudible.]

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  It was the voice of the people that saved the museum that I ran.

RICHARD DOUD:  Isn't that something?

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Isn't that terrific?

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  All organizations and everything. And we did nothing here at the museum, of course. We couldn't—

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, as a member of the regional committee in the '30s, what did you do? Did you meet and pass on every artist that was eligible? Or I'm not sure—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  First of all, we were supposed to get a list of New Jersey artists. I worked with the Newark Museum and the Montclair Museum and the Associated Artists and the Modern Artists Group. And various communities had little art committee organization so that I was able to get quite a long list assembled. And we took from there the people that were in this region. Then we looked up their background if we did not know about them.

[00:20:16]

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  We had already become fairly well-acquainted with those that had real ability, because we'd been having exhibits and we knew what their work was like. And so, the—I think that was the one reason that made it very easy for us to cooperate with them and recommend certain people for certain jobs.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, now, suppose the job that we were looking at the post office, I think it was, Ward's—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Oh, yes, the mural.

RICHARD DOUD:  Yes. Now, what did you have to do in the long run with that man getting that job? Or did you have anything specific to do with it?

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes, I did, because it happened that Charles Ward was a protégé, more or less, of the museum, because we were very much attracted by his work when he was at the art school, the Trenton Art School. He worked his way outside of school hours so that he could take art courses. He—in the summertime, he worked at the—I think it was either the Roebling or one of these plants that draw wire, you know?

RICHARD DOUD:  Yes.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  He was very familiar with all the steps of this particular industry. And I had seen sketches of his of the workmen at work—drawings. And I thought they were very well done. And his work, we thought, was going to take him far. So, then he went to the Pennsylvania—Philadelphia academy, and I believe won one or two scholarships and foreign travel and so on—

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —for study, so that we felt he was pretty well-qualified. And we recommended him. And then when they said they wanted Trenton industries, he knew this one wire one—

RICHARD DOUD:  [Inaudible.]

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —inside and out. And he knew the type of man that you would—the workmen. He wasn't afraid of them. And they were not afraid of him. He could go into any plant and become one of them.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And study them and sketch them. They wouldn't mind if he sat there sketching them. In fact, they enjoyed it. So, I think it was a very good choice.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, would you have had any influence on something that was done in Philadelphia, for example? I mean, as a committee, were you called to pass on things being done in areas outside your particular—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I don't recall that.

RICHARD DOUD:  [Inaudible.]

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I know that we got the various bulletins stating what they were planning in certain areas.

RICHARD DOUD:  I see.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And then, for instance, they asked me to pick a local committee to assist me.

RICHARD DOUD:  I see.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Now, we chose—I remember one of them, Mr. McGuiness [ph] who was the fine art instructor at the art school— was one of them. And we probably selected some other people. I've forgotten who the other people were right now.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  But they would work with me on what are the needs of this area, what buildings. I just looked over some of those lists again today—

RICHARD DOUD:  Yeah.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —and found out what buildings we recommended, what industries we felt would be well to have portrayed or included. And it would—it would've been fascinating if we could've gone on with that series, because there's so many things that could've—should've been put in there.

RICHARD DOUD:  Oh, yes. This had to stop, though.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I know. I think we had history with the John Fitch boat, and right on the Delaware River and everything. See, it's—

RICHARD DOUD:  [Inaudible.]

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —a wonderful possibility.

RICHARD DOUD:  That project was very short-lived. And—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes.

RICHARD DOUD:  —then the next really big all-encompassing thing was the WPA Federal Art Project. Were you, in any sense, on a regional committee for that?

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Now, who controlled that? Was that from Newark?

RICHARD DOUD:  No. Originally, the ultimate head was—of course, the national director was Mr. Cahill.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Oh, yes.

RICHARD DOUD:  And I think Mary Curran in Philadelphia was the regional committee for this particular area.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I think—again, I was reminded by looking at the correspondence this morning—that we had quite a bit of correspondence with Mary Curran, and chiefly, in giving her the names of artists of this area. And then she, in turn, I know, would say, give us a list of work that was being done in Philadelphia.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And areas around here. So, that was one reason why we planned this mammoth Public Works of Art Project exhibit. And we had a—as I recall, it was a very large exhibit and very well-attended and well thought of.

[00:25:16]

RICHARD DOUD:  It's strange that oftentimes we get the feeling that people still have a bad taste in their mouths when they think of this federal art. But looking back on these exhibitions at the time, they were very well-received—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  They were.

RICHARD DOUD:  —as a rule, and received a lot of very good publicity through the newspapers and, well, even through the trade journals, as exhibits of worthwhile art. I wanted to ask you if you know if Mary Curran's still living, and where, if she is.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I don't know.

RICHARD DOUD:  She's not in Philadelphia now.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  No?

RICHARD DOUD:  No one seems to be quite sure whether she's still alive or not.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  It's too bad. There were a number of remarkable people heading these various projects. Because I remember Mrs. Denney [ph] with the archaeological project in the Newark area. And she was a wonderful woman. And kept in touch with this museum years after our archaeological site survey was—

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —finished, and the work that we did here.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, I'm sure you knew Mildred Baker, and you know [inaudible]—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Oh, yes.

RICHARD DOUD:  She was some sort of assistant to Mr. Cahill on a national basis, I think. Did she have much to do with you? Or—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  She wasn't so much in this area. I know her very well.

RICHARD DOUD:  Uh-huh [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And I know her capabilities. I think she has a very good background on the artists of New Jersey, and New York too. She knows that whole area. Now I know why. I didn't know she was serving on the—[they laugh]—I hadn't thought that she was on that committee.

RICHARD DOUD:  Incidentally, Dr. Phillips from Columbia has interviewed her on tape. And we do have a transcript of her—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Oh, I [inaudible]—

RICHARD DOUD:  —some of her reminisces, at any rate. But—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —because I'm almost sure that she would have very clear recollections of what became of some of these people. And—because she has kept her hand in the art, should I say, subject—projects being at Newark.

RICHARD DOUD:  She's at the Newark Museum.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes.

RICHARD DOUD:  Yes.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And she still follows that, you see. So, that—we have had so many subjects that we have to deal with here, you know? We're not just a one track. But I think Mildred has done, chiefly, the art field in the Newark Museum, has done a beautiful job. They have a very wonderful collection, and very excellent records, as I recall.

RICHARD DOUD:  We've been through all this Indian site business as far as the WPA cultural projects are concerned. Do you know what else was going on in New Jersey at the time? For example, I've talked with the lady who was the state director for the Federal Art Project in Virginia, and, of course, they worked with Index of American Design and had some murals, some easel paintings, so forth. But quite a bit of their activity was with classes—art classes for children. And they would establish small local art galleries to—like, in Big Stone Gap, the southwest Virginia gallery, this sort of thing, to sort of take art out to the people. Now, New Jersey isn't Virginia. They don't have, really, the isolated conditions that—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  [Not a hint of mountains (ph).] [Laughs.]

RICHARD DOUD:  —Virginia has. So, I was wondering if there was this type of program in this state to take art to the people rather than trying to get people to come to art.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I don't recall that too much of that was done. We did have—even with our own materials, building up art print collections. And they were sent into the field, of course. I do also remember that we—in sending our school bulletins to the—into the areas—the various areas, that we would also announce the possibility of borrowing prints, and also paintings when some of the museums were willing to have paintings to go out on a rental basis or a loan basis. I think most of our work was pretty much in this locale in the art field. Because I do recall that we worked with some of the federal instructors—finger painting, music, sketching for children. And we had—I don't know whether I have those on file yet. It seems to me that they may have gone out of the files by now—

RICHARD DOUD:  [Laughs.] Yeah, it's probably—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —telling about the fingerprinting classes and—

[00:30:15]

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —they were very popular. And the work that they did, it seems to me we have some of that work available yet too. I'll try to check that.

RICHARD DOUD:  Oh, that would be interesting.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  There—some of the things were beautifully done and remarkable. The talent of the youngers and their imagination—I know that there were two instructors that were very clever. One was a man and one woman. And there were someone that took care of the music. They would pay—play the selection, and somebody would tell the children, first of all, the story of the music—

RICHARD DOUD:  I see.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —or what it—what its meaning was. And they would say, Now, as we're playing this music—we had a Victrola affair [ph] there [laughs], recording. And we'd ask them—they would say, Now, whatever you think of while this composition is being played, you interpret it on this piece of paper with your finger painting.

RICHARD DOUD:  Oh, wow.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And these were the kind of subjects that they had. It was a sea subject with ships and things. You would get that kind of a thing.  If it was something with birds or spring or something—I remember some with sunsets that were very unusual. [They laugh.] But I'll see if we can find those. They did come to light some time ago, but we've been sort of getting ready for moving, you know? And that's—I'm not too sure that we could locate them.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, did you have anything to do directly with the Index of American Design and selecting plates for that or objects?

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  We did know the—I noticed again today, I had forgotten that we were even approached on that. But we had been notified that they were going to do it and could we send them a listing of people from whom we had borrowed decorative art, early glass—

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —samplers, cog wood, even iron, early iron utensils, all sorts of things. And I do know that there were a number of those lists from whom we sent them the names, the addresses, and what we had borrowed from these people, and the significance of the—of the things. And probably—I know that there are some New Jersey pieces in the—in the American Index of Design that are—that were portrayed.

RICHARD DOUD:  You know, it's the shame that really nothing's been done with that collection. As far as I know, it's at the National Gallery, those that were actually finally selected.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  They lend them, or they circulate them.

RICHARD DOUD:  But it seems to me that it would be an amazing publication for use—well, now, only if people are interested in decorative arts and sort of things, but interior decorators and—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  They do have the portfolios, don't they?

RICHARD DOUD:  I don't know. There was—I think Christensen [ph] put out a small thing on—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Portfolio [inaudible], yeah.

RICHARD DOUD:  —but there's so very few of the plates are actually in the—it's more or less the history of what happened [inaudible].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Well, haven't they—I think you can purchase, can't you, series of those?

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, I'm sure—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Rather large color—

RICHARD DOUD:  I'm sure that they—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —plates?

RICHARD DOUD:  —you could do that, but—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yeah.

RICHARD DOUD:  —as a collection, it would be a terrific thing. I don't how many—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  We have borrowed those from Christensen.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And shown them here. And we will select our particular subject to supplement with whatever we're showing during that period. And that works out beautifully. They're very well organized, the series.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And they're protected. So, they are the originals, I'm sure.

RICHARD DOUD:  This—you might take the lesson from how they're handled to—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Right. [Laughs.]

RICHARD DOUD:  —for your Indian prints—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes.

RICHARD DOUD:  —downstairs.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes. We must do something with those—

[Cross talk.]

RICHARD DOUD:  Whether they're in glass [inaudible] or [inaudible]—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —watercolors, and so on.

RICHARD DOUD:  —I wouldn't know. It just be something [inaudible].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I, myself, did not realize we had quite that many original watercolors and drawings of Indian life—

RICHARD DOUD:  It's a nice collection.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —and myths and things. It really is an outstanding collection. And we will do something with it. We may even try to have color reproductions. Of course, they do run into money, and whether we can convince somebody in the state [they laugh] to allow us to do that. I think it would be very nice to have portfolios that could be made available at a reasonable price to the public.

[00:35:07]

RICHARD DOUD:  Would you like to mention some of the artists that you particularly remember with—this Indian collection business brought this up, the two fellows who worked on that, and they did great work.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  You mean Phillips [ph], who did the watercolors?

RICHARD DOUD:  Yes.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Kenneth Phillips [ph] and Monty Kruse [ph].

RICHARD DOUD:  Those two gentlemen, we—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  They went to town, as they say [laughs]—

RICHARD DOUD:  They certainly did.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —because they worked hand in hand with Dr. Cross [Dr. Dorothy Cross Jensen]. Now Dr. Cross knew the physical characteristics of the Indians from her excavating. She knew with the various skeletons they had found. And she also knew from her research the type of clothing they wore, and their style of hair comb and—

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —all that. And the color of their skin pretty much from old research books and so on, so that she kept them from dolling them up with a great big. [They laugh.]

RICHARD DOUD:  Yeah.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —war bonnet or something of that sort—

RICHARD DOUD:  [Inaudible.]

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —or the big peace pipe and so forth. So, she was there every step of the way, and even with agriculture implements, the kind of hose that they would use, the cultivating they would do, and the planting of the corn. And the old idea of putting a fish, you know [laughs]—

RICHARD DOUD:  Oh, [inaudible].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —outside [ph]. Even with fishing and the fishhooks and the spear points, and the use of those things, and their games. Just as we saw those sketches, she used to say,  Here are the items, this is the way they would do it. Now, this is the area where they would do the fishing. These men would go down to South Jersey, where the shell heaps were, and they would study the locale. And she did the same thing even with the Abbott—the famous Abbott farm site right outside of Trenton, so that many of these have—the artists took the notes of the various areas, or photographs even. She had photographs of many of those areas. So, I feel that this is probably the most authentic series of Indian life along the eastern shore, middle east, that I know of.

RICHARD DOUD:  And it's strange that they should be sort of isolated here [laughs] and not available.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes. And—in a way, though, I'm rather glad that we haven't made too much use of it. We have made the portfolios that I showed you today—

RICHARD DOUD:  Yes.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —for the schools. And we are contemplating—the Archaeological Society would like to help in getting colored larger prints made of some of these and making them available to the public at a reasonable figure. We have used them in exhibits. They've been on display at various fairs—

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —and in connection with the exhibits. I'm afraid that if we hadn't been a little careful with them as we have been, they may not be in a—might not have been in such good shape as they are now. [Laughs.]

RICHARD DOUD:  Oh, sure.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  We're going into quarters now where we can handle them, have them framed and have them hanging in a—in vaults, or art vaults, where they can be gotten easily. I think it'd be an entirely different question of they will be used to the great—and they will be protected.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, what other New Jersey artists particularly come to mind when you think of the 1930s? Who was—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Well, if we can take it over into the crafts thing, I felt that this man, Joe Copeland [ph], does remarkable work in carving of wood. And if you had—if we don't have time today, maybe when you come again, I'd like to have you see the plank house that he did.

RICHARD DOUD:  I'd like that.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Beautifully done. And a number of his works were recorded in that way. I'm trying to think of some of the others. Offhand, I don't know how many of the artists— without having a list of them in front of me. Waylande Gregory—

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —the sculptor that—we saw his work. Now, he did quite a lot of excellent work along that line. There were a number of the modern artists—and I don't recall their names right off now—did considerable work during that period.

[00:40:17]

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, I think Ben Shahn was just east of town here a ways. He was working in New York then, wasn't he?

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes, he came to Roosevelt, New Jersey just in recent years when they opened up that area. President Roosevelt, I think, was responsible, was he not, for that? Or Mrs. Roosevelt was—

RICHARD DOUD:  I'm sure—I'm sure that one or the other—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yeah.

RICHARD DOUD:  —one was, yes.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  So, that hasn't been so long. But Ben Shahn is very helpful in various art projects, whenever you can call on him. He's a wonderful human being. And I'm so delighted that his children are following in his footsteps even if they're not doing—one's a sculptor and the other's a painter.

RICHARD DOUD:  Oh, is that right? Very good.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And so, that—he's serving on the Tercentenary Fine Arts Committee.  And I'm on that committee. And he's wonderful to work with. We two were on the Medallion Committee for the Tercentenary thing.

RICHARD DOUD:  Oh, yes. Uh-huh [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And—

RICHARD DOUD:  You know him quite well?

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, I hope to meet him one of these days. I want to talk to him about something a little different. He was, for a while at least, working with Roy Stryker on the Farm Security Administration's project to photograph rural America and all that sort of thing.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Oh.

RICHARD DOUD:  So, he was—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  That sounds interesting.

RICHARD DOUD:  He was, at least for a while, basically a photographer. And we're trying to interview those people too.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Well, that's interesting. I didn't know that—

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, I'll tell all—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  —facet of his ability. [Laughs.]

RICHARD DOUD:  —tell you all about the FSA one of these days—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

RICHARD DOUD:  —because I'm quite excited about it.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  That sounds wonderful.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, then, when all this business came to a close in the '40s, things just sort of either wrapped themselves up or were thrown out or stopped and it's kind of hard sometimes, I think, to really evaluate what did happen. And I was wondering if I could ask for, well, a subjective opinion, if you want, of what do you think was the value of the government sponsoring the acts in the '30s. Do you think that it was good or bad in general? Or—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I think it was a great stimulus. And they surely needed it at the time, because people weren't thinking so much of art. Do you think that? It was fairly near—right after the Depression years. And they had to have something to take them out of the thinking of nothing but: Where is my next job coming from? [Laughs.]

RICHARD DOUD:  Yeah.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And particularly the artists, because I think they were hurt more during the Depression than most people, don't you think?

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, I'm sure they are. In fact—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  [Inaudible.]

RICHARD DOUD:  —I think quite often they're hurt even when there's not a general—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Right.

RICHARD DOUD:  —depression, because—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Right.

RICHARD DOUD:  —it's so easy sometimes to think of art as a luxury or as an adjunct and probably—maybe I'm sticking my neck out, but it seems to me that in this country more than most, art is not really a part of life. It's something you sort of tack on, or you get interested in if there's nothing else. But, I mean, we don't, I don't think, have this strong feeling for art that sort of permeates most of the western culture.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I know. And I think your Public Works of Art Project and the series that was undertaken during that period or before and after, I believe—as far as I know, I don't know of any other federal government in America—American federal government assisting artists, do you?

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, certainly, it was the only—it was the only time when there was any—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  It was nationwide, wasn't it?

RICHARD DOUD:  —real attention to it.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes.

RICHARD DOUD:  Of course, there's always been a few scattered commissions for decorating federal government sort of thing.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Not too much.

RICHARD DOUD:  But certainly not on any scale that would assist the arts in general. So, for this reason alone, I think that it's an important period, because it does show what can be done if the government is interested.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Don't you think we're coming around to that period again now that there—people are, I think, all over America are greatly in favor of federal art aid?

RICHARD DOUD:  I wanted to ask you about that too. Do you think that a really extensive federal project such as in the '30s would be a good thing? Do you think that today there's enough need for it? And do you think that, with the state of politics today, the artist would have the amount of freedom he had in the '30s? Which, it seems to me, was a good deal of freedom actually.

[00:45:20]

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I really think they would have—they would make even better use of it now, because there surely are many, many more artists when you think of all these amateur groups that we get from them. Even, like, with a large group, you may even have one or two professionals that come out a group of that sort.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  There's this wide sweep and breadth of art interest all through New Jersey, I know. I'm sure it's that way all over the country. But we still need to have—with all of the extra time that we're going to have on our hands, free time, I still feel they need to have a great many community centers and art centers or whatever you want to call them, but someplace for the people to go where they would have trained instructors, and not just simply—and not only in the evening with the adults. I think the adult courses are fine, but there's so much needed in the daytime hours. And practically day and night, they could be kept going. And having trained people assisting with music, art. And I can see that'd just have to be a perfectly wonderful boost to the morale of the people. And I think they need it. There are too many nervous people in this world, you know?

RICHARD DOUD:  [Laughs.] That's right.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  They're thinking of other things besides living. [Laughs.]

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. That's for sure. I sort of—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Or letting live. [Laughs.]

RICHARD DOUD:  I mentioned politics a moment ago. Do you recall—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I don't think that would interfere, do you?

RICHARD DOUD:  Do you recall whether or not there was any local or state political problems with the art projects? I mean, were—was the state of New Jersey, or was the city of Trenton, say, more or less trying to push people around in the use of funds or the depiction of things? [inaudible].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I saw none of that.

RICHARD DOUD:  Really? No political trouble at all?

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  No. No. The only thing I recall is probably the people who hadn't been touched too much by—although, I don't know who wasn't touched by [they laugh] hard times. But I think there—they very often used to joke about, you know, the public worker and it probably was because, in some areas, they would have large gangs [ph] going on to a project. And very often, you couldn't keep a large group of people busy every second.

RICHARD DOUD:  That's right.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  But that didn't mean that they didn't work, because, even today, there is a hiatus between one task being ready and another one not quite ready to start. Well, what are you going to do in the meantime? You're not going to climb a tree or something. [They laugh.] You're going to relax.

RICHARD DOUD:  You're going to boondoggle.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  [Laughs.] Yes, you're going to boondoggle.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, you mentioned the New Jersey committee to study the arts. As I understand it, they've only had two or three meetings now or something like that.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  You mean us, our group?

RICHARD DOUD:  Yes, your present group.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Well, we work fairly close together, as I recall it. And whenever any particular project we had in mind, we would get together very easily. And, of course, the museum here in Trenton was very accessible.

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  And they could drop in without making any great effort. I'm sure we had many conferences.  And particularly, if we were trying to either find out what—if an artist had been given a project, we were supposed to keep pretty much in track of it. Find out, well, do they have the information? Do they have the research for it?

RICHARD DOUD:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Where can they get the research? And we were continually assisting in that way, too.

RICHARD DOUD:  Well, what I had in mind when I asked this was the present committee to study the arts. This recently organized commission, whether it's the governor's council or something—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  I don't know too much about that. We had a telephone call the other day, and they thought that the headquarters was here. And I said, Well, we haven't gotten any notice of this particular art commission. We did read in the papers that there was one. And I'm not too sure just who's on it, so we're going to find out about it. [They laugh.] Because I've been out of the museum now, for a few months. And I think it did come to a head just about that time.

[00:50:03]

RICHARD DOUD:  I think it did too, because—

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Yes.

RICHARD DOUD:  —I think they've only had, well, possibly three meetings now.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

RICHARD DOUD:  I think Mr. Donough's [ph] is secretary of the thing.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Oh, I'll ask him—

RICHARD DOUD:  Don't tell him I told you. [They laugh.]

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  No.

RICHARD DOUD:  He may not want you to know. Well, I expect I've taken up enough of your time, we'll turn this thing off.

KATHRYN GREYWACZ:  Well, we're very glad to help you. And I hope—

[END OF TRACK AAA_greywa64_4157_r.]

[END OF INTERVIEW.]