Oral history interview with Gertrude Kasle, 1975 July 24

Transcript

Preface

The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Gertrude Kasle on July 24, 1975. The interview took place in Detroit, Michigan, and was conducted by Dennis Barrie for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.

A note accompanying the original transcript states that it was edited and retyped by the narrator on September 21, 1984. In 2024 the Archives retranscribed the original audio and attempted to create a verbatim transcript. This transcript has been lightly edited for readability by the Archives of American Art. The reader should bear in mind that they are reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose.  Additional information from the original transcript has been added in brackets and given an –Ed. attribution.

Interview

[00:00:06.44]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Okay, today is July 24, 1975. I am here in the Gertrude Kasle Gallery—galleries or gallery?

[00:00:19.98]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Gallery.

[00:00:20.55]

DENNIS BARRIE:  —Gallery in Detroit in the Fisher Building. I'm here with Gertrude Kasle, the owner and director of the gallery, and we're going to talk about the development of the gallery, the art scene in Detroit, and a lot of other topics. My name is Dennis Barrie. I guess what I'd like to do is just to get some background on you before we get into the gallery's history. What is your artistic background?

[00:00:56.94]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, I grew up in New York City, and I started to sketch from casts when I was about, I would say, six years old. My father was a doctor, and some of his patients were artists. And they thought I had—[laughs] signs of great talent. And I studied with a man named Gaetano Cecere. I used to go to his studio when he was teaching sculpture at Cooper Union. And I would be perched on a stool, and I would sketch from casts. And he thought this was very essential to training the eye and the hand.

[00:01:36.61]

And I say it must have been before I was seven, because we moved out of that neighborhood. We lived in a brownstone house on 29th Street at the time. We moved to 85th when I was seven, and I know it was while I was living downtown. And then I just always did the bulletin boards, or various things that children who are supposed to be talented do around schools.

[00:02:04.72]

And when I got to Julia Richman High School, I definitely said I was an art major. And there again, I did programs for assemblies. So we used to raise money for the indigent children. It was during the Depression, the terrible Depression. And my little watercolors used to sell to the teachers for five dollars each, and I was very proud of that. But I decided I didn't want to go to college, because I felt my parents had both gone to college, my sisters were in college, and I'd rather go to art school. Unfortunately, or fortunately, whichever the case may be, I met my husband that summer—my future husband—and he said he wouldn't marry anybody but a college graduate.

[00:02:52.06]

So I gave up art school and got myself matriculated at NYU in the Art Education department. And then at the end of two years, my husband—my future husband—got my parents to let me come to Michigan. And I was at the University of Michigan for my junior year of college at the School of Architecture. And then we got married, and all my artistic talent went into my home, and producing children, instead of paintings. And when my youngest child went to nursery school, I went down to Arts and Crafts, and I studied with Sarkis.

[00:03:29.43]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Sarkis Sarkisian?

[00:03:30.93]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  That's right. And then I transferred to Wayne, and got my degree in art education from Wayne State University. It wasn't Wayne State at the time. It was Wayne University. And that was pretty much the background. I studied a little bit at the Art Students League on Saturdays when I lived in New York. When I was in high school, my art teacher advised me to do that. So I took Life classes down at the Art Students League. And when I thought I was going to go to art school, I had applied to Pratt.

[00:04:03.95]

DENNIS BARRIE:  I see. So that leads to the question, then, getting into the history of the gallery. What prompted you to open a gallery in Detroit, Michigan?

[00:04:17.27]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, truthfully, when I left New York, I was really appalled at the fact that there weren't more visual opportunities for people to see good contemporary art. Of course, I was a very provincial New Yorker. I thought every place had a Metropolitan Museum of Modern Art, and so forth. But really, I was very disappointed when I to Detroit to find that there was very little to be seen—Diego Rivera murals and a German Expressionist collection [at the D.I.A. –Ed.]. Then Lydia Winston was interested in the Futurists, and Larry Fleischman was interested in 19th century American art. But nobody seemed to be paying any attention to the really great movement of the 20th century, which was Abstract Expressionism.

[00:05:02.91]

However, I never would have thought of opening a gallery, because I had no experience even in handling a checkbook intelligently. And after my daughter got married, I had thought of doing something more professional than volunteer work. I had worked with the Friends of Modern Art at the Art Institute. I had been Vice President. But I wanted to do something a little more challenging and professional.

[00:05:28.51]

Franklin Siden was going to open a gallery, and someone introduced us. And so I took a third partnership in the Siden Gallery. He had two-thirds of an interest, and I had a third of an interest. And I was just thrilled because Frank had a business administration background, and I had the art background. And the agreement was that we wouldn't bring any shows into the gallery except by mutual agreement. And then at the end of the first year, he wanted to change that, because legally he had the two-thirds interest, and he didn't want an equal partner, because I wanted to become an equal partner. So I really had to leave because I didn't want to be dictated to. [Laughs.]

And then Joy Hakanson, who was the Art News critic asked me if I would continue with the gallery. And I was a little intimidated by the bookkeeping. And I said I'd have to talk to my husband about that. So she put in the news that I was looking for gallery space. The next thing I knew, the Fisher Building asked me to open a gallery here. And my husband said his accountant would take care of the bookkeeping. [Laughs.] And I found myself at the gallery.

[00:06:42.64]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Okay, you have a call so—

[00:06:43.74]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  All right, excuse me.

[00:06:44.56]

DENNIS BARRIE:  So we can stop for a minute.

[Recorder stops; restarts.]

Now, we should deal with a few dates. When did you become partners with Siden?

[00:06:56.80]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Let's see. My gallery is ten years old this April. And that would be 1965.

[00:07:05.69]

DENNIS BARRIE:  1965.

[00:07:06.80]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I think it was 1963 when we opened the Siden Gallery.

[00:07:10.49]

DENNIS BARRIE:  And that was located where?

[00:07:11.96]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  At the David Whitney Building.

[00:07:14.94]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Downtown Detroit. What kind of concept did you have for that gallery—that the two of you had for that gallery?

[00:07:24.77]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, actually, it was like a duck to water. I had watched all these artists developing in New York. And I had seen their work at galleries, and got to know some of them through going to exhibitions. And I just knew I wanted to bring the whole group to Detroit. So I took Frank with me to New York, and we went to meet Larry Rivers. And there was that whole group of artists. I would have loved to have been able to bring people like Pollock—Jackson Pollock—and Mark Rothko. And some of the artists I eventually did. I would have loved to have had a Barnett Newman show, but we couldn't afford that sort of thing. I mean, these artists—Pollock wasn't living, of course. Rothko was, but he was pretty difficult to reach. Although at one point I met him, and he said, "Call me at the studio." But then when I called him, he was very unhappy that day, so that didn't materialize.

[00:08:25.85]

But actually, I wasn't courageous enough to approach some of the people I would have liked to have shown at that time. So I went to some of the younger people, like Larry Rivers, and Grace Hartigan, and Paul Jenkins, and Robert Goodnough—slightly younger people. And then we went to Leo Castelli, and asked about Robert Rauschenberg and Jasper Johns, because they were two young artists whose work I was devoted to. And Leo was very sweet. He said, "You came a year too late." That was in 1963. He said if I had come to him a year earlier, it would have been possible. But in that one year, they had sort of caught on, and he had a waiting list for their work. But I think that they're probably two of the greatest contemporary American artists of the younger generation.

[00:09:13.46]

DENNIS BARRIE:  You picked the younger people like Rivers and Grace Hartigan. Did you know Larry Rivers? Did you know Grace Hartigan?

[00:09:20.00]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, as I said, I had met some of them through—I once went to an opening—well, not an opening—I went the day before the opening to see a Rivers show because we were leaving for Detroit, and I figured I couldn't wait. And I went there, and they were very sweet. They were hanging the show, and Larry was in shirt sleeves. And I said, I have to go back to Detroit, and would you let me see the show?

[00:09:44.40]

And so we started to talk. And after that, I was active with the Friends of Modern Art. We brought him here to speak. So it was kind of a continuing friendship. And we visited him in Southampton. And then when I was thinking of opening the gallery, he encouraged me. He said, "Why not? You should do it;" while some of the others said, "Why, Gertrude? You're knocking your head against a stone wall. And who'd be interested in the art in Detroit?"

[00:10:12.87]

It was a painful row to hoe. At the beginning, people would walk in the gallery and say, "This is so garish; this is so bold, and so crude," or something, because they really hadn't had the visual exposure to the kind of work that was creating so much interest at the time—well, amongst a certain group. None of the really good, great artists have a very broad following. You know, people think that, oh, boy, everybody—because they're big names to some, that they mean something to everybody. But really, it's amazing how small the group is that really is into creative art. Most people like what they're used to.

[00:10:56.63]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Right. Well, and that brings me to two questions. First of all, what were the other galleries showing in town when you and Siden opened your gallery?

[00:11:09.87]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, I was always grateful for anything. Bob Garelick opened a gallery and showed the Realists. It was interesting with Don Morris; I met him in New York at a gallery way before I ever dreamt I'd have a gallery. And he was just going to open his gallery. And I asked him to come to my home to see my Milton Avery, because if he was going to open a gallery I wanted him to bring Milton Avery to Detroit. And he came over, and I owned "March in Red," which was a very beautiful Avery. It had once been on the cover of Art News. Incidentally, I had my subscriptions from 1939 on, to Art News. It moved all over the country with me, my—when [inaudible] was in service.

[00:11:57.15]

But anyway, Don became interested in Avery, and got to meet Grace. The Averys, actually, came through Grace Borgenicht, who was his dealer, and is, I think, still his dealer. But anyway, Don brought Avery to Detroit. But other than that, I don't remember too many of the artists he was showing at the time. They weren't in our particular group at all. I don't think he felt that there was too much going on in this country. I think he was more into some of the European artists at that particular time.

[00:12:30.78]

And Peggy deSalle showed some very good people, but not at all in the American 20th century Abstract Expressionist tradition. And who else was there at the time? Morris, Garelick. Hudson's opened around the same time we did. And Albert Landry had interviewed me to work for Hudson's and then said that he felt I was too qualified [laughs] that Hudson's didn't need two people with art backgrounds. I was very lucky, because I had said to him, "Well, I hope the J.L. Hudson Gallery will carry Universal Limited Art Editions." And he said, oh, no, he didn't think he'd go into that because, actually, we work in a very small percentage with Tatyana Grosman. And so, fortunately, he didn't carry them. And when I went with Siden, we brought Universal Limited Art Edition prints to Detroit. And I think it's one of the greatest workshops in history, really. They've done most of the exciting creative work.

[00:13:37.10]

DENNIS BARRIE:  You say you and Siden and differed on what you wanted to bring?

[00:13:42.86]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  No, no. The first year, there was no question. Frank actually didn't know any of these artists. And so we brought them, and he was very pleased with the way the year had run. And he told me that he would—actually, I think he used the word "lenient"—that he'd be very lenient with me in arranging the shows, but that the final decision would have to be his. That's really the way he put it, because legally this was his right. And when I said to my lawyer, "This isn't fair, because we had said it would only be by mutual agreement," my lawyer said, "How old are you?" And I said, "I won't tell you." [46 –Ed.] [Laughs.] And he said, "And you think people are fair?" [Laughs.]

But I don't blame Frank. He wanted to be his own boss, and that was perfectly all right. And I really wished his gallery had succeeded, because I'm a great believer in galleries in cities, not just one or two, but I'd like to see, really, six or eight very successful galleries in the city of Detroit. I don't know any city worth its salt that doesn't have a good gallery scene. Toronto is really exciting because their gallery scenes developed. Their restaurants are good. Their shops are good. It makes for an exciting city.

[00:14:58.28]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yes, it's a very nice city. Well, you opened in '63—actually, '65—on your own. Hudson's opened up '64, I think, and Don Morris just shortly before—I think before that. You're all—

[00:15:14.87]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yeah, around the same.

[00:15:16.10]

DENNIS BARRIE:  —about the same period. Was there such a market for contemporary art in Detroit at that point? The three of you opened?

[00:15:25.32]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, you see, I didn't look into the marketing aspects of it because, to me, marketing is—I mean, if you're interested in a gallery to sell art primarily, then you're interested in what the public wants. And this was never a criteria for me. I really thought of the gallery as an educational institution, really, because I wasn't being too effective with the Friends of Modern Art. Every time I'd come in with an idea, I'd be told that the Founders Society would have to approve of it. And then the Founders Society wouldn't approve of it or something like that.

[00:16:01.59]

And in fact, when I bought Larry Rivers—because I was head of a committee, and I took the responsibility, there was tremendous criticism. I was told that he had said some things from the platform that were outrageous, and so forth. And I just felt that Detroit—the Midwest should see what's going on. And also, because I had worked at Arts and Crafts [Center for Creative studies now –Ed.], and was primarily an artist, though I realized my talent was very limited—I always say my eye developed beyond my hand—that I couldn't be satisfied with what I did—I felt artists would benefit.

[00:16:37.14]

I mean, a lot of young people don't get to New York. They can't get to the shows, you know? I felt if they were to see what was going on, and there was a kind of exchange between—and, in fact, all through the country. And I think this is essential to the development of really good cultural scene in this country, to have good galleries all through the country, not to have them bottlenecked in New York.

[00:17:03.44]

And so I was trying to be a little bit of a catalyst, I guess, to sort of stimulate some kind of thinking. And frankly, this has been gratifying. I've had young people come in the gallery and say—oh— in fact, the first few years—"Well, if you can show this kind of work, then I'm going to just paint the way I feel like painting." And this is what it's really all about. Sarkis might be a great teacher, but you don't want only little Sarkises.

[00:17:30.94]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Right.

[00:17:31.42]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  And so I think that we have served a good purpose for the young creative talent in the area.

[00:17:37.82]

DENNIS BARRIE:  So you really—in getting at your philosophy—the concept of the gallery, it was more non-profit oriented, you would say, than—

[00:17:48.14]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Oh, yes, because I remember with Frank, we hung this opening show. And I was so thrilled and excited. And then Frank came over and said that someone had bought a painting, and tears came in my eyes. I hadn't been prepared to sell anything. [Laughs.] I was so horrified.

[00:18:04.50]

DENNIS BARRIE:  That's funny.

[00:18:06.20]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  You know, they just sprang into my eyes. I hadn't expected the reaction. And it was very hard for me when people would want to pay me for something. It would embarrass me terribly. But the great pleasure did come from being able to send checks to artists. I must say that it's been a source of satisfaction.

[00:18:25.34]

I've never really been elated about the purchase by the collector—I [don't like –Ed.] the word "collector," incidentally, because I think it's so pretentious—but by the person who bought the art because I always felt, "you lucky dash-dash [devil –Ed.]." But I was happy and have been happy to see artists who really can use the income. People think because they've gotten some publicity, they're living on the fat of the land. Actually, most artists' income is nothing compared to what even some of the craftsmen today, like plumbers, [carpenters –Ed.] and so forth, are getting.

[00:19:05.37]

DENNIS BARRIE:  I know.

[00:19:06.47]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  You know? And they have families to raise, children to put through college. And they're entitled to—you know. And in our gallery, the artists have always set their prices and usually to match what they sell their work for in other cities. They like to keep a uniform price. And then we'd take our commission. And we've never changed the price of anything that they've given us. I know that this happens sometimes, but we've always sold the work at the price the artist has put on it and taken our commission.

[00:19:41.27]

DENNIS BARRIE:  That's very interesting. In those opening years, did Detroiters buy? Were they ready for it?

[00:19:52.67]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, I must say, we've always met our expenses. But in order to meet our expenses, we even did our own crating. We did our own deliveries. I mean, I've really cut costs at every corner. I did my own layouts, my own designs for the invitations. We tried to keep the overhead really to a minimum. And we had very little assistance in the gallery. And, of course, the Fisher Building was very nice when I first moved here, to give me a graduated rent. So I started at a relatively modest rent. And the renovation that had to be done was paid off over a period of time.

[00:20:38.66]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Do you ever keep attendance figures on your gallery?

[00:20:41.61]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  No.

[00:20:42.59]

DENNIS BARRIE:  That's very curious.

[00:20:43.38]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I'm not a very numerical person. [Laughs.] It's hard for me to—

[00:20:46.79]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yeah. I just wondered, do you feel like a lot of people came in those early years or nowhere near as many as do now?

[00:20:54.14]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  No. In fact, I think in the early years, we did get more traffic because I think this area was more—

[00:21:01.61]

DENNIS BARRIE:  The new center area of Detroit was more vital?

[00:21:03.35]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yes, was busier with people who were interested in the arts. I mean, they might get a lot of traffic in this building today, but they're not people who come up to the third floor to see an exhibit, while in those days, really, we always got enough traffic. We never felt isolated. More so today than we did years back, actually.

[00:21:23.41]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yeah. And what reaction did you get in those first years from—let's say the first two years?

[00:21:29.77]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, usually hostility.

[00:21:30.77]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Hostility?

[00:21:31.18]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Really, I remember Joy Hakanson was once here reviewing a show, and a girl walked up to me and said, "You call this art?" And she started to scream at me. And I tried to get a word in edgewise. And she said, "Don't tell me. I'm an artist." [Laughs.] And with that, she walked out. And Joy said, "Do you get this kind of outburst often?" It's like being a whipping post, you know?

[00:21:55.50]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yeah.

[00:21:56.50]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Another time I had a man walk in—and I got so I could tell by their footsteps how they were reacting. They clump through. You could tell the anger, you know? And I went out and asked the gentleman if I could help him. And he said, again, "You call this art?" And he pointed to a Robert Natkin painting. He said, "Tell me what you see in this." And, of course, Bob Natkin does very joyous, very lively, wonderful, colorful paintings. And I said, "Well, real joie de vivre." And he said, "I don't see anything like that at all. I see the work of a disturbed mind." And knowing Bob, and what a nice, decent fellow he is with his two kids and his lovely wife, you know—

[00:22:37.78]

DENNIS BARRIE:  He wasn't very disturbed.

[00:22:38.62]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  —I said, do you think—oh, he said to me, "And do you know who I am, young lady?" And I said no. And he said, "I'm Dr. so-and-so." He happened to be a psychologist. And I said, "Well, do you think you could be projecting?" [They laugh.] Well, then I slipped back into my little cubby hole, and I took him out of my mailing list. But a few months later, he came in and said, "You took me off your mailing list. You put me right back on. I want to see these shows." [Laughs.]

[00:23:07.49]

DENNIS BARRIE:  That's interesting.

[00:23:08.16]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  So maybe he thought it over, and maybe he realized—because the eye is like any other organ. You have to exercise it. And I try to get people, even if they were angry and furious and hostile: good, look, this painting is ruffling your feathers. It must have something. You know, come on back. Keep coming back and see if after a while you can relate a little to it, just like with a new food, you know? And sometimes it really worked. People would come back again. And then they'd say, "Well, you know, I didn't like any of this stuff when I first came in here, but now I'm enjoying it."

[00:23:41.66]

DENNIS BARRIE:  What did artists say in those days? What did local artists—how did they respond?

[00:23:46.37]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, as I said, some of the young people really were enthusiastic about having a chance to see the shows. But some of them got very angry with me for not showing their work. And you start feeling this fury, you know? But I would have defeated the purpose of the gallery if I had turned it into an all-local artist gallery. I always showed one or two local people each season. And I threw as much of my weight behind the local scene as I could. If I was asked to serve on any committees, I would always try to involve the best local artists possible, and as many. But you could feel the anger. There were some who bore great resentment, and almost—I don't know—real bitterness about my not showing them. And I would try to explain that I think, anyway, you have to show an artist regularly. I think that you can't just give somebody a show and then forget about it, because it's a build-up. Again, it's that visual exposure. You have to educate the eye.

[00:24:56.86]

The first Goodnough show, maybe we would sell nothing. The second one, we might sell two or three canvases. And now we sell Robert Goodnough's year-round. And that's true with Hartigan and with all the artists that we've shown. Consistently now, there's a following for them. They get into homes, and they get to be seen. And then people start loving the work. And then they desire it and want it, and they go—either come here, sometimes they go to New York, you know?

[00:25:25.15]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yeah.

[00:25:25.33]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I think galleries outside of New York helped the New York art scene. I think we develop audiences for New York galleries. And I would try to make that point to them. We weren't taking collectors away from them. We were increasing the number of people—

[00:25:41.08]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yes, it's increasing the exposure.

[00:25:41.77]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  —interested in art.

[00:25:44.49]

DENNIS BARRIE:  What did you look for, and what do you look for in the artists you show?

[00:25:51.84]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, primarily, I look for that real, wonderful, neat creativity that I was incapable of. [Laughs.] Technical skill is important. And I don't like—I don't think the idea is greater than the skill, because I think they have to go hand in hand. I'm not interested in something slapped together, no matter how brilliant the work—the idea as a concept. The work has to be just as brilliant. But it is that unique kind of individuality that stands out and shines that makes me excited, that I react strongly to.

[00:26:27.79]

And I have certain criteria. I never wanted to bring anything into the gallery that I didn't feel this commitment to, and that I wasn't proud of. I didn't want to have to apologize if—Alfred Barr, in my youth, was the real great leader of contemporary art—if he was to walk in my gallery, I didn't want to have to offer an apology. I wanted to feel the work measured up. I didn't want to bring anything into Detroit that wasn't better than something that was being done here, because otherwise I would rather show what was being done here. And I wouldn't bring anything into the gallery that I wouldn't want to own myself and live with. So I had very tough standards, really.

[00:27:13.18]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yes, they are.

[00:27:13.69]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  And I'd go, and usually Larry took me to studios, and I met various artists. Lowell Nesbitt took me to studios. Mike Todd, that's one artist. Or I'd be in a studio and I'd see—I was in Mike Todd's studio, and I saw this beautiful flower painting. And he said, "Oh, a friend of mine did that. Would you like to go over to his studio?" And so he took me over, and that started this whole series of exhibits of Lowell Nesbitt's work. And I wasn't interested in New Realism or anything like that. It was that wonderful—Lowell, whatever he does, he does with such unique individuality that you know it's something special. And that's the way it's all grown.

[00:27:58.08]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What was your first showing?

[00:28:01.95]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  The opening show was a group show. And that was Jenkins, and Hartigan, and Goodnough, Yektai, who I met at Paul Jenkins' studio, and whose impasto I loved. He has that very thick application of paint. But I mean, certain artists had to, because of various reasons, not continue with the gallery. Manoucher wanted me to buy his shows outright. And I really couldn't do that. And let's see. Who else was in that opening show? Larry Rivers, probably. I can look it up. I have all the old invitations saved. It was a group show. And then we showed each one of those artists in a one-man show that year.

[00:28:47.12]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Oh. I was just going to ask you, what your second, third, and fourth and fifth? But they were just spin-offs of this initial show?

[00:28:52.49]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yes, and had Julius Schmidt, who was head of sculpture at—

[00:28:55.34]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Cranbrook.

[00:28:55.70]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  —Cranbrook. And then there was a girl named Mary Ashley who was working at Michigan. She was in one of the early shows. And she's into some kind of photographic image work now out in California, and doing very well. Al Loving sent slides to me, and I asked him to bring something in. And then we had Al's first show, and then encouraged him to go to New York. So there have been artists. Now Brenda Goodman is the latest local artist that we've shown.

[00:29:26.90]

But these artists have all had something very much their own to say. Ian Hornak—you can see influences. Our opening show in September will be Steven Sloman, who's a Detroit product—for generations. I think he's like a fifth-generation Detroiter. And Steven's work—and we've discussed this—has the Al Held and Pollock influences very evident. But he's not at all self-conscious about it. He admits it. But there is his unique thing coming through that, which has tremendous appeal to me.

[00:30:01.52]

And if you've seen enough retrospectives, you see the Thomas Hart Benton, Pollocks, you know, and yet you know Pollock had something very much his own, even though he was working with that influence. So it's the less visually educated who feel they have to withdraw if they see someone's influence. But the more exposure you have, the more you realize that everybody comes out of someplace, you know? And as long as you see that particular spark, you know that it's okay, it's there. [Laughs.] He's got it, or she's got it.

[00:30:47.02]

DENNIS BARRIE:  What do you consider your—I shouldn't say—I had a word here as first "significant" show, but that's not a good one to say. What was the most important show, your first show that you would classify as the most important?

[00:31:01.09]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  You know, I really can't say that, Dennis, because each artist and each show has meant a great deal to me. I thought it was very important when the gallery got a little sturdier, and we could go to someone like Adolph Gottlieb, who I had met, and say, "Would you ever think of letting me have some of your work in Detroit?" Or Robert Motherwell, or Philip Guston, who are really giants of the 20th century. I felt it was so important to bring their work to the Middle West, because to see one painting in a museum isn't like walking into a gallery and seeing the whole impact, and feeling the impact of the man's work.

[00:31:45.41]

And I felt that it was a great service to the younger, unknown artists that if I could have a balance between these historically important creative figures, and the young creative people coming up. And they've all meant as much. Having a Brenda Goodman show means as much to me as having a Motherwell show. I mean, I can't do that. Or de Kooning, I had a marvelous de Kooning show here. And I said to myself, "Gertrude, did you ever dream you'd have a de Kooning show in your gallery?" But I can't say that it meant more. Do you know what I mean? [Laughs.]

[00:32:23.16]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Okay, yes, I do know what you mean. I do.

[00:32:25.35]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Good.

[00:32:26.97]

DENNIS BARRIE:  But if you had—all right, I'll put it this way. If you had to pick highlights, you couldn't even do that, or could you? If you said—highlights of those first few years of shows seemed to—

[00:32:38.78]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  No, I really can't.

[00:32:40.46]

DENNIS BARRIE:  —have been the most impressive or had the most impact on the area.

[00:32:47.35]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Somebody else would have to answer that for you, because I really don't see it that way. You know, I haven't got that kind of vision about it.

[00:33:01.76]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. You exhibited local talent from the very beginning, didn't you?

[00:33:04.70]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Oh, yes.

[00:33:06.35]

DENNIS BARRIE:  And you're continuing to do so. Have there been periods when you have not shown anybody locally?

[00:33:13.70]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  No. Every year, I've had one or two local artists in an exhibition.

[00:33:19.31]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Have most of these local artists taken off nationally? Do they have reputations now?

[00:33:24.02]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, as I said, Mary Ashley has developed a big reputation on the West Coast. Al Loving has got a very wonderful reputation in the East. Ian Hornak certainly has made name for himself. And I'm hoping Brenda Goodman will. And Steve Sloman is really coming to Detroit with already having established himself in the East.

[00:33:43.85]

Unfortunately, the one thing the gallery can't do for its artists is get national criticism for them. We've tried to get the big periodicals to send critics. We've even offered to pay fare, because someone like Jack Tworkov, who I think is one of the giants of the 20th century, as I said at lunch, showed here, and he wasn't showing in New York, and I couldn't get any coverage for him. And if I can't get coverage for him, I can't get coverage for Brenda Goodman, who's just trying to make a name for herself.

[00:34:18.57]

So therefore, I have to try very hard to get affiliations for artists in New York when they don't have them, because I want my artists to be successful. And this is something I haven't been able to overcome. Now, Arts magazine is the only one that has really responded sympathetically. And Arts magazine has sent people to artists' studios in New York, like the Steve Sloman show. They're sending someone up to Steve's studio to see his work before it's shipped out to me. And they will do an article on him in conjunction with his show in Detroit, which is a healthy, good thing, you see?

[00:35:02.96]

But Grace Hartigan had a beautiful show here. And it wasn't until she was—or a number of shows. It wasn't until she showed at a New York gallery that she got coverage in one of magazines. Well, I think Arts magazine did do something for us, too, at that time. It was a beginning. But I guess it was Artforum or Art in America reproduced a painting that had first been shown here in Detroit, and then was shown in New York. And, of course, she got a review with—

[00:35:32.17]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Why can't you or anybody else get them out here to Detroit? Why can't you get coverage?

[00:35:40.00]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, let's see. I think it was Clem Greenberg—or one of the critics—said to me that they'd be beholden to me if I paid the fare. And I said, but they could even do a bad review as long as there was a review. [Laughs.] And they said, no, they couldn't accept the fare from a private gallery because then they would feel they were in the employ of the gallery.

[00:36:02.49]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Certain magazines like Art in America have reports in from what's happening in other cities. I would think that—I've never seen too much mention of Detroit, and I've often wondered why.

[00:36:15.54]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, the truth of the matter is, most of the Detroit galleries haven't been able to do a big enough advertising job. I think that that's what it really boils down to. I think if we promised to—they might deny this, but I really think—I could show you a letter I wrote Art in America, Artforum, Arts magazine, and ARTnews. I got really kind of an unsympathetic answer from Cowles, who was with Artforum at the time. I got no answer at all from Art in America, and I got a very sympathetic answer from Arts. And ARTnews never answered. So actually, we have made inroads with Arts magazine. And I think it's a better magazine for it. I really do. I think it's less opinionated and narrow in its concept than some of the others. I think it has a broader vision. Naturally I'm supporting them. [They laugh.]

[00:37:11.21]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Let's see. Has your exhibit policy—exhibition policy changed in any way during the years?

[00:37:22.10]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  No, I don't really think it has. I think we've continued the way we—see, I had this concept of what I thought a gallery should be, because after all, I had grown up with galleries. That's why I said it was really like a fish to water. I had never thought of owning my own gallery. I mean, some people have said, "I bet you always dreamed of having a gallery." If anybody had ever told me I'd have a gallery, I would have thought they were absolutely crazy.

[00:37:45.88]

But actually, I did have a concept of how I thought a gallery should be run. I thought a gallery should be able to show art to the best advantage. I didn't think it should be incumbent with a lot of drapery or furniture. When I first opened this gallery, people would pop in and say, "Oh, how are you going to furnish it?" Or they'd look at the paintings on the wall and say, "Are they all yours?" I mean, people really didn't know about the kind of gallery that I was trying to present. And one of the critics, Morley Driver, wrote how cold and unfriendly the gallery was. Well, I wasn't trying to make it a reflection of Gertrude Kasle. I was trying to make it a good space to show painting, sculpture, and graphics. [Laughs.] And it's worked that way. The gallery has taken on a different kind of character with each show. And it's always been fun. I always feel like "the King is dead, long live the King," every time we put up a new show. [Laughs.]

[00:38:41.54]

DENNIS BARRIE:  And essentially, though, your concept hasn't changed about who and what you exhibit and why. It's still—

[00:38:51.11]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  No, it's exactly the same. It isn't a practical approach. I'm not trying to pretend that—well, the woman who is now head of the rental gallery at the museum came in one day and told me they had cleared or made—I don't know whether it was clear or what—$9,000 in the rental gallery in one month. And I said—it might have been around December. I don't know. I said, "Well, if I showed the kind of art you show in the rental gallery, I'm sure I could do the same thing. But we're a commercial gallery, and we have very high standards here." I don't know whether she appreciated it. But the thing is that if I showed pretty pictures, framed reproductions [as they do in the DIA –Ed.], in the Fisher Building with the General Motors buildings attached, and the New Center Building attached, I'm sure I would do a big turnover. But that was never the objective of this gallery. And I just stayed with my objective, and I'll go down with my ship. [Laughs.] If need be, anyway.

[00:39:48.50]

DENNIS BARRIE:  You're not going down. Now, a very important aspect of your gallery I'd like you to comment on is that you've often had accompanying your exhibitions, what I have down here as "rap sessions" or panels, or whatever—not only a chance to meet the artist, but some sort of dialogue. How did that come about, to begin with? And let's talk about some examples of that.

[00:40:21.39]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, I really feel that aside from showing the work, it's kind of a wonderful opportunity for people to get into the creative personality. And I noticed at openings it's a little stiff. Someone goes up to an artist and makes some statement meaning to be warm and friendly, and sometimes it comes out kind of dumb. [Laughs.] And I thought, well, maybe if there were informal conversations or discussions, we could get something going that would be more informative. And sometimes when the artist isn't so articulate, we use a film. And we've rented films and shown films of—well, we didn't have Robert Motherwell come, so we showed a film of Robert Motherwell at work, which was really wonderful, because he talked a great deal about the whole scene—the whole art scene. And we just try to educate intellectually along with the visual. Let's put it that way.

[00:41:21.25]

And then, later on, when Charles McGee opened his gallery, we decided to time our openings to the same date. And then we tried to tie in with each other, and sometimes invite his artists to discuss art with the artist I was showing, or we'd go over to his gallery, whatever, just to make it a little more informative and constructive.

[00:41:45.19]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:41:45.34]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Of course, I had the funny experience of having Adolph Gottlieb here once, and a young student rushed up to me and said, "You like this work? I think it stinks." And I said, "I'd like you to meet the artist." So it hasn't always been—[laughs] so great. But Adolph Gottlieb was very sweet. He knew young art students. And he laughed and thought it was very funny.

[00:42:05.52]

DENNIS BARRIE:  It is funny.

[00:42:06.14]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Sure. And we've had some discussions end up on a more political note than an artistic note. But I think it's very healthy in a community to get people expressing themselves. And I'm not afraid of their expressions. I feel that we can always handle it, because actually, we have more in common than less in common if we look at it the right way.

[00:42:34.15]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Aside from the ones you've mentioned, what others stand out? These various sessions, can you think of others that were very important?

[00:42:43.11]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, I should have looked through my little books—my scrapbooks.

[00:42:47.02]

DENNIS BARRIE:  That would [inaudible].

[00:42:48.32]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yes. Actually, I think that the films have gotten a great attendance. In fact, even when we have a discussion between two artists, we seem to draw quite a lot of people. People seem to be hungry for this sort of thing. And I think it's always worthwhile. And I think people will come into the city if they feel there's something important to be gained.

[00:43:15.07]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  [Side conversation:] Can I call back? See if I can't call back.

[00:43:27.75]

DENNIS BARRIE:  What impact do you see on the community for these sessions? Who attends, first of all?

[00:43:35.13]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Mostly, I think young artists and students. We get a handful of collectors. Our openings really aren't social events. They're really serious events with people who really care about our art and are interested in it. We've sold—one young artist from the University of Iowa bought a de Kooning drawing instead of buying a truck. He was so enamored. And he took, of course, two years to pay for it. But they really seem to care about the art that they buy in the gallery. It really has meaning in their life.

[00:44:11.82]

And the attendance is always good. And our artists appreciate the attendance. They're always pleased with the kind of people. They'll say, "Oh, this isn't like a New York opening at all." I wish, in a way, it was. I wish we did get more of the so-called power structure. I wish our museum people were more interested—or were even interested, I should say—more interested, or just interested. I wish our art commission was interested. I wish the so-called important collectors in the community were interested. I'm afraid that they really feel that if it's in Detroit, it isn't so good, or so important. But we have enough friends to balance out the anguish we might feel over this sort of isolation.

[00:45:01.04]

DENNIS BARRIE:  But it doesn't draw that group. It does draw artists.

[00:45:05.53]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yes, it does.

[00:45:06.31]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Very interesting. Do you find—do you ever get the young collector in here at these types of things?

[00:45:16.37]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Oh, sure. We have young people who are interested in living with good art, and we've sold a lot of art to people—you know, just people. I must say, I can't say it's any particular group. I think it's just a nice, big cross-section of the community.

[00:45:34.88]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Do you find these things as educational?

[00:45:37.22]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Oh, absolutely, I certainly do. I think anybody who grows up in a home with a Robert Motherwell or Jack Tworkov is going to be a better person for having grown up with that kind of visual exposure. I think that the eye is a terribly important part of our world—the most important, maybe.

[00:45:56.43]

DENNIS BARRIE:  I think, maybe too. You're right.

[00:45:58.60]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Maybe if people did less talking and more looking, like me right now [They laugh.]

[00:46:04.06]

DENNIS BARRIE:  We wouldn't have anything on tape. Let's talk about what goes over in Detroit. That sounds very crass. But from your experience, who or what type of art has been the successful art in Detroit that was purchased [inaudible]?

[00:46:32.71]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, of course, I don't think Detroit is any different than any other part of this country. I think that Clem Greenberg has had tremendous influence on museum staff people and on decorators and collectors. I think the Color Field group became almost like a cliché. Every interior decorating magazine had Noland, Stella, Olitski, and it's just become a little bit boring. I think they're all good artists. Now, I've never handled their work, so that I don't know. But it seems to me that these were the popular, "in" people. I really wouldn't know that, because I don't look into those trends. It's just I would say that those people seem to be the most publicized, commanding the highest prices, and were sort of the chic, "in" thing to own, that kind of thing.

[00:47:28.24]

DENNIS BARRIE:  How about in your own gallery? Who has proven most popular with Detroit audiences?

[00:47:35.75]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Most popular, frankly, the artists I show most consistently. As I say, then they develop a following, because then people have had more exposure, and they see their work more, and so I sell more of the work. I think it really is so much a matter of conditioning the eye.

[00:47:53.75]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:47:54.08]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  And it takes a very long time. And then I think price, of course, has a lot to do with it. There's no question if I show a painting for $20,000, it's going to be much harder to sell than if I show a painting for $2,000. So then probably I've sold best amongst the younger people whose prices have been more modest than amongst the—although I've sold enough of the more established artists to know that there's an interest in this kind of work too.

[00:48:31.52]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What isn't successful in Detroit?

[00:48:39.19]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I don't know about this kind of questioning, Dennis. I really don't, because I could say, well, in the terms of the way people think about selling a lot of art, maybe none of my artists have been successful in Detroit. But they're so successful as artists that I can't worry about whether we're selling their work or not. I mean, I think to see a Jack Tworkov show in Detroit, Michigan is sort of a marvelous thing. And I really can't worry. I wish that we had sold more, but that can't be the criteria.

[00:49:16.13]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah. Well, maybe I should phrase it this way. In the various styles and -isms that have come up in the last ten years, which have seemed more acceptable to Detroit audiences?

[00:49:37.19]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I would suspect now that the New Realists are probably having the greatest success all over because I understand the New York galleries sell them very well, and I'm sure that they're selling better in Detroit. But as I say, I just don't go along with that. We have Nesbitt, who we've always had—wouldn't like to be considered a New Realist, but certainly includes subject matter, canvases—and Ian Hornak. But I was going to show Ian Hornak whether Realism was in or out.

[00:50:09.25]

But I think people have an easier time when they see something that they're familiar with. I think the Abstract Expressionists are tough because they hit the emotion. And I think people are mostly afraid of their emotions. And then people like to feel that they're kind, noble, sweet, wonderful people, so they like canvases that look kind, wonderful, noble, and sweet. And when they maybe have tragedy in them, people are afraid to live with them.

[00:50:39.28]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. That's interesting. The New Realists are doing quite well recently. Did you ever have anything like the Pop or Op people?

[00:50:48.24]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Oh, I've had Rosenquist and Oldenburg and Lichtenstein in prints. I haven't been able to have their paintings. Of course, that would have been going into something else. Again, it's very hard for me to think in terms of categories. I have to think in terms of the art that I like. And going back to this New Realism, the thing that worries me is that in every rigid society, like in every dictatorship, there's always a demand for Realism. And I was so happy with the Abstract Expressionists because I felt that after the Second World War was this explosion of freedom, that there is hope for the future, and the world was going to be a better place, and never again would we have cruelty and horror that came about with Hitler. And now you see this going back to this very tough Realism.

[00:51:44.69]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Rigid.

[00:51:45.47]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  It scares me a little bit.

[00:51:48.45]

DENNIS BARRIE:  It's very [inaudible]. Let me check my [inaudible]. Do you think that—you mentioned before that Detroiters tend to go along with Clement Greenberg's concepts? Is Detroit, as an art audience, are Detroiters as an audience, typical, atypical of what's happening, say, in the East, or Chicago, or Los Angeles?

[00:52:25.37]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, I really wouldn't be qualified to answer that. I really don't know. I just think that it's a pity that the leadership in the community isn't more interested in seeing a whole art scene develop here. But I think that that is probably true in other communities. I know Mrs. Weissman was here to speak for the Friends of Modern Art, and she came to visit the gallery and to meet me. And she was very sweet and nice. I had a big Guston show up at the time. And she said, "Does anybody buy these?" And I said, "Rarely." [Laughs.] And she said, "Well, I'm not surprised, because this is the same thing in L.A." And I said, "Well, they all think they have to go to New York when they get into that kind of art." And she said, "Well, this is just typical." And so I guess all cities—I think Chicago probably has this. People are basically insecure, and they feel more confidence if they buy it probably, in a big-name gallery or pay more for it someplace else or something. [Laughs.]

[00:53:28.90]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I was going to say. Well, then does that make it difficult to bring artists out here?

[00:53:37.18]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, sometimes they balk. They feel, who's going to look at it, and who cares? But on the whole, most of them realize what I'm trying to do, and they do feel sympathetic. And it is important to get people to look at the work. Even if they don't buy, and they look, it's broadening their horizons and making them think in different terms. So most of them are very sympathetic. Of course, sometimes a gallery has to underwrite a show in order to get it. And so when we sell one artist, and we make more than our expenses, that extra goes into underwriting someone else's show that maybe we won't sell, because you have to remember, to bring a $20,000 canvas to Detroit isn't any more expensive than bringing a $500 canvas—a young, unknown artist's work. You see, the shipping is all there.

[00:54:33.78]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yeah, still packing and shipping and insurance.

[00:54:36.30]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  That's right. That's right. And we carry tremendous insurance that covers everything from wall to wall, from the artist's studio to our gallery, and all the time it's on our premises and then back to the artist's studio.

[00:54:50.23]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do the artists like to come out for the openings?

[00:54:55.79]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  They all have except Robert Goodnough, who is painfully shy, who doesn't even like to go to his New York openings. He comes in in the last five minutes.

[00:55:06.35]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Unidentified. [Laughs.]

[00:55:07.52]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yes, in sneakers and paint-stained blue Levi's.

[00:55:11.66]

DENNIS BARRIE:  And stands in the corner.

[00:55:12.66]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yeah. And let's see. Bob Motherwell hasn't come because he hasn't felt too well. But actually, I think he would come. I think those are the only two. Helen Frankenthaler has been here, and Jack Tworkov, and Guston. Adolph Gottlieb was here. He even would have come to his last opening in a wheelchair if I had encouraged him. But I knew what a burden it was to his wife, and I just didn't want to see them go through that whole struggle. But he did fly to Europe in a wheelchair for an opening. They like to get the touch of the people.

[00:55:46.73]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yeah, that's was going to ask you.

[00:55:47.37]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  And you know, it's so important, because people don't realize how much it means. I've had beautiful experiences in the gallery. And these wonderful artists are very touched by knowing that some young student would give up buying a truck in order to own his drawing. He might be willing to wait for two years for payment, but as long as I'm willing to do that. [Laughs.] You know. But really, these things do mean something to them. And I've had wonderful experiences.

[00:56:20.00]

One was with Philip Guston. Three people walked in, and I could tell by the way they walked that they liked the show. And I went out and said, "Are you enjoying it?" And they said, "Oh, yes." And they were so thrilled to see Guston's work. And this one gracious, beautiful woman—a gray-haired lady—said that she had studied with Guston when she was a young girl, and she had followed his work, and how much his instruction had meant to her and so forth.

[00:56:44.10]

And knowing that Phil was feeling a little bit blue, I said, "I have to call him. Would you like to talk to him, introduce yourself, and remind him, and tell him what you've told me?" And she said, well, yes, she'd be glad to. So I tried to get Phil, and there was no answer. So I said, "Well, would you write it? Because I'll probably be dropping him a note." So she wrote out this little "pleasure of seeing his show" and so forth. And then they went downstairs for lunch. And she signed it "Sister Theresa." So I called him again, and he was there. And I read him the note and said "Sister Theresa, of course, she doesn't think that you would remember her."

[00:57:21.01]

He said, "Why, of course I remember her, Gertrude. She was a beautiful young nun." And she would come in and sketch—he had demanded as a young instructor that they let him have nude models, which was quite unusual in his day. And she would be sketching these nude models. And the contrast of this beautiful-looking, sweet nun sketching these nude models, he'd wonder, what is her Mother Superior saying? So he said he could never forget the vision of her there.

[00:57:49.39]

And I was pleased. And I went downstairs for lunch with Brenda, incidentally, and there was this trio. And I went up and said, "Why, Sister Theresa, I did get Phil Guston, and of course he remembered you. And you know, he was always terribly concerned about what your Mother Superior said when you went back with your nude sketches." And she said, "Oh, I just colored them green and called them jade figures." [They laugh.] Isn't that precious?

[00:58:14.75]

DENNIS BARRIE:  That's incredible. That's cute. I like that. It's a good way out.

[00:58:18.67]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  So you're always running into things. And it sort of links. You have a feeling that you're bringing people together and linking things up. And it isn't that total Eastern isolation. I think there's something sad about going to de Kooning's studio and seeing beautiful canvases all hoarded, really, because he doesn't—I think his work is sort of in the control of his lawyer, who is so worried about whether he gets the right prices, and is so zealous about guarding him, instead of his work being shown all through the country and a man like de Kooning feeling the love that comes about through having this kind of exhibition, you know? Like the fact Brenda Goodman adores Philip Guston. You get these wonderful vibrations for people. And artists basically have to show their work. That's what it's all about.

[00:59:16.94]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Right, right, yeah. Do you—I should say—do you—when these artists visit, like Guston and Gottlieb and so forth, have they stayed long in the community? Or is it just sort of a one-day thing?

[00:59:30.85]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, they've stayed, probably, a weekend. And usually they've visited the Art Institute, and they've usually visited some—I used to take them over to Cass [Corridor –Ed.]. And Jack Tworkov went to the Willis Gallery with me. And I've tried to get them—I think Jack was also invited by some students to speak to the graduate students at Wayne. Sometimes they've talked, like Phil did, to the Friends of Modern Art. Sometimes they've spoken at Arts and Crafts or gone and spent an afternoon with students over there. Michigan State's invited them. University of Michigan has invited them there. I've tried to get as much linkage with the rest of the community. Sure, it isn't enough time. But usually they're taking time out of their work schedule, and you can't impose too much.

[01:00:18.98]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Right. Well, that is great. Interesting that there are the other ties with the institutions around here. We're almost out of this one side of tape. But let me finish with a couple ideas on this side. How many artists would you say right now do you exhibit?

[Telephone rings.]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I didn't do my homework, Dennis, did I? I would imagine about—you see, we have shows of their work every other year.

[01:00:49.25]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Every other year, okay.

[01:00:49.99]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  And we usually have nine shows a year. So probably about 18.

[01:00:56.78]

DENNIS BARRIE:  About 18?

[01:00:57.50]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yeah.

[01:00:58.46]

DENNIS BARRIE:  And has the composition changed a great deal in the ten years?

[01:01:03.03]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  No. As I say, I've had to lose some artists because— that's how this Artist Equity thing came about—I mean the statement of policy came about—because I found, once I went to a studio, and the artist had hardly any work for me to show. And he had a gimmick he had dreamed up of how to do it according to a horoscope, or something. And I didn't like to trick people into coming into my gallery to see what I would [not –Ed.] have called a solid show, and it wasn't going to be a solid show. It would have been two or three little teensy canvases and one huge one, or something like that. So I had to cancel the show.

[01:01:41.07]

And another time an artist had sent the work on to Chicago for a show and then thought I would take the show from Chicago here. I had, not knowing that, had been sending all my people interested in his work to Chicago to see the show, saying that I was going to have his show later in the season. So then we had to cancel that.

[01:02:01.32]

And then one of the other artists did a great disservice to the gallery. A collector got to him and got as much off in buying a painting as I was making a commission with my overhead. And though he made it up to me by giving me a painting, and I actually made more money selling the painting without having to give him a commission—without having to pay him for it, that wasn't the point. The point was, if you get people thinking you can bargain down the price of a painting, you can't run a gallery that way. We must meet our expenses. And we've not asked to do anything more than that, but we have to do that. And I thought it wasn't a very professional or legitimate way for him to behave. So I had to—and he told me Hirshhorn always gets that kind of discount. But here I had sold 40 of his paintings over the years, and I wasn't getting any more than he was giving the collector. So this just didn't make any sense to me.

[01:02:58.84]

So we've lost about three or four artists that way. Then, of course, Adolph has passed away. And Mary Ashley moved to the West Coast, and sometimes it becomes prohibitive to ship work. So we've had some dropouts and some additions. But I'd say the overall feeling of the work carried in the gallery has been consistent.

[01:03:21.10]

DENNIS BARRIE:  That's interesting. That is. And of this basic group, are they showing outside of New York any other place? Would they be showing in L.A.? Well, obviously, some of them are.

[01:03:32.14]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Oh, yes, you mean like the artists I show here?

[01:03:34.48]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Like Nesbitt and so forth?

[01:03:35.59]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Oh, yes, Nesbitt shows all over the world today. They all—actually—

[01:03:41.10]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yes, like Tworkov.

[01:03:42.25]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yes, oh, yes.

[01:03:43.63]

DENNIS BARRIE:  I didn't think before I asked that one. [Laughs.]

[01:03:46.97]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, we hope Brenda Goodman does someday too.

[01:03:49.45]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yes, and Ian Hornak, and so forth.

[01:03:51.49]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Oh, yes, and Ian Hornak is getting—he's showing down in Houston now because Tibor de Nagy, his New York gallery opened a branch down there. And I'm sure they'll be sending a show to Europe eventually. So, the wider spread they get, the greater. And I never work with—I won't split commission. Like, if I show Brenda Goodman, and she gets a New York gallery, I won't do what some New York galleries think they should do, want to take 10% from another gallery. I think that the more widespread audience an artist develops, the healthier for everyone. And I'm always anxious to see my artists going to other galleries and have exhibitions.

[01:04:28.68]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Have you ever shown, strictly speaking, a European artist, as opposed to—have a lot of Americanized Europeans in your—

[01:04:37.38]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yes, who come to live here. Well, Peter Stroud, except he's living in New York too, but he was from England. Frankly, I really like to do what I know best.

[01:04:47.40]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Which is—

[01:04:47.91]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  And it is really the New York scene. I mean, Mike Todd is living in California, but I still say that's all part of the 20th century American art, really, basically.

[01:05:01.33]

DENNIS BARRIE:  And you deal—in almost all cases, you deal directly with the artists. You don't deal through another gallery.

[01:05:07.48]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Oh, no, I only deal directly with my artists. With Adolph, he had an exclusive of Marlborough, but he worked that out with Marlborough. And I went to his studio [as well as the gallery –Ed.], and he knew—

[END OF TRACK AAA_kasle75_8052_m]

[00:00:09.13]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Now, okay. I have a question here. Who are your customers? I don't mean a rundown of names, but—

[00:00:21.66]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  No, well, I think I kind of answered that in saying that I really feel It's a cross section of the whole community. You know, I can say that these people never come, that those people—I think professional people probably more than business people, and maybe professional people more than just working people, you know.

[00:00:43.45]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:00:43.56]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  And I think that might be kind of statistically so.

[00:00:48.97]

DENNIS BARRIE:  And from—basically from Detroit or outside the city?

[00:00:54.28]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, it's pretty general. We send a lot outside of the city, and we have contacts and calls for various things. And people, the Fisher Building is good in that it is a cross section, and people from all over come through. We sell de Kooning to Canadians, and this kind of thing. I can't say that it's primarily out of the city, or only in the city.

[00:01:27.92]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What segment of the community would you like to develop as art conscious, art interested?

[00:01:35.69]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Everybody. [Laughs.]

[00:01:36.68]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Everybody?

[00:01:37.38]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Everybody. I think that art is meant for everybody. And I don't think there's such a thing as an elitist society today. Because if you think of the elite, you're thinking of people with money. And then in a generation back, they might have been the people without money. And so the people without money today might be the people with money tomorrow. I mean, this society is very mobile. And I think good art has appealed to anybody, depending on the visual sensitivity. I don't think it's just related to people who have money.

[00:02:11.07]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Are the people who come to the gallery and buy young, old?

[00:02:18.18]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  All ages.

[00:02:19.20]

DENNIS BARRIE:  All ages?

[00:02:19.80]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  All ages, sure.

[00:02:21.27]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Do you see a trend in younger people to buy?

[00:02:23.91]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I think younger people like the idea of living with bigger paintings. I think they enjoy the impact of the strong creative expression.

[00:02:37.71]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, I think so too. And would you say that the audience now is more sophisticated than, say ten years ago?

[00:02:47.02]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  There's no question, absolutely no question. The first place, people are traveling more. And there's been more publicity for art and the medium. And even the handful of galleries we have in Detroit are better than we had previously, you know. So I think that more people are curious, and interested, and involved for various and sundry reasons.

[00:03:14.74]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Are many people looking at it as an investment?

[00:03:17.12]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Oh, yes. There's no question. All the price tags attached to exhibitions and so forth have challenged people's interest in using art as a commodity.

[00:03:33.50]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Stocks and bonds, yes. Yeah. Are local artists being purchased as well as the more national names?

[00:03:46.77]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I would think so. I think that local artists in the community probably have as much of a chance to sell as anybody we'd ever bring in. I don't think it's easy to sell good art, good creative art, whether it's from New York or Detroit. And I don't see any real difference if it's really the good creative art. I think it's tough to sell that, the new experience, the new visual experience.

[00:04:16.87]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Hmm. But the locals do sell?

[00:04:19.00]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Oh, I would think so. Sure, we sell Brenda Goodman. We've sold Al Loving.

[00:04:24.86]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Where have you found local talent?

[00:04:28.04]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Where do I find?

[00:04:29.24]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yeah.

[00:04:31.96]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I've sort of fallen into it, like the time that Jack Tworkov was here, we went to the Willis Gallery. It just happened that Brenda Goodman had a show up. And to see a whole show of her work was really wonderful. I bought a piece out of the show. And then later when Brenda asked me for a show, I asked her to be sure that it was all right with the Willis Gallery. Because I'm a great believer in cooperative galleries. I think local artists should band together not in groups of 60, but in groups of 20, and put on their own shows. And if those could be clustered and enabled—I was working with a new Detroit committee hoping that we could get a building where artists could have studios in the first floor. The street floor could be cooperative galleries. So anyway, that's how I found Brenda, and Brenda found me. [Laughs.]

[00:05:24.00]

And then Al Loving, through slides. He sent me slides. It's been very difficult for me to get around and look at work, since I have my own gallery. I used to do that all the time before I opened a gallery. But sometimes an artist will pick me up and take me to a studio, which makes it much easier, because some of the neighborhoods I just don't feel like exploring by myself. And I'm always happy to look.

[00:05:48.95]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:05:49.81]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  And usually the work comes to my attention one way or another.

[00:05:53.24]

DENNIS BARRIE:  How do you think the locals shape up now, 1975, to national standards?

[00:06:01.38]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I think they do very well. I really see a great creative quality developing here in the work of people working here. And when you stop to think of all the important artists who have come out of this area, you know. I think as I said before, transportation being what it is, people get around a lot today. So that younger people have broader exposure. I don't think there's a demand for conformity in the art schools that there used to be. So you don't get such provincialism. You get more experimentation and more individual expression. And this makes for a healthier art climate. And I really have a lot of confidence in Detroit art scene, if it's given half a chance.

[00:06:47.87]

DENNIS BARRIE:  What are you saying by half a chance?

[00:06:49.49]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, like the Willis Gallery moving into the Fisher Building, I think might get more attendance than when they were over on Willis. Also people stopping this ridiculous quest for investment in art, and really looking at art, and enjoying art, and relating to art, and buying something because they really can't live without it. You know, they're involved with it, and backing young artists whose work they feel shows credibility.

[00:07:20.88]

I would rather see somebody live with an original work of art ten times over than a reproduction. I think to sell framed reproductions, or just even to rent them is a great disservice to creativity. I think reproductions are fine for reference. But I think when people come to me, I say, "Well, I'd rather see you going to a student show and buy some students' work that you love, or a faculty show and buy one of the instructor's work than buy a reproduction or a poor print."

[00:07:55.85]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yeah. Who—how should I put it—Who is your competition in this city, or who is geared for the same sort of audience?

[00:08:10.72]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well see, I'll tell you the truth. I never think in terms of competition. I feel that cooperation is the thing. I think of an art dealer as a professional person, not really as a business person. You know, it's sort of a profession to me. And I feel anybody who develops a love of art, and an interest in art is working for my benefit. Like every person that I develop an interest in art for, is going to somebody else. And I tell them, look in all the galleries. When you travel, go to all the galleries. The more you see, the more you'll know.

So when someone buys something from me, they're buying what they want, and I like to encourage people to be whole people, individuals, independent. I don't want them depending on the decorators, or depending on one dealer. I want them to have faith in their own eye and their own taste. So we have books here. We give people books to read, and we sell books on art. And we try to get them to develop their intellect along with their eye. And I welcome any other dealer, or all the dealers.

[00:09:21.91]

I think there are ethical practices. Like I don't really think it's fair if I'm having a one-man show, with somebody else to go around to dealers and buy up the artist's work, or to bring it in and try to compete in that way, or to say that period isn't any good, but the period of the one that I got hold of is good, which happens. This happens. And you have to have a sense of humor about it. But I would rather think cooperatively.

[00:09:51.19]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Was it a blow to the art community for the Hudson's Gallery to close?

[00:09:57.91]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yes. I think it was a disappointment. I think the fact that another good gallery couldn't maintain itself, number one. Number two, I think they did us a disservice in the way they sold art, like bargain prices. I think there could have been a more dignified way for them to liquidate the gallery.

[00:10:17.11]

DENNIS BARRIE:  When they were closing, yes.

[00:10:18.34]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I think that this was a great disservice to the community. And I don't really believe that the gallery had to close. I think it was abused by the people who were hired to run it. I think that they overstocked and overloaded the gallery to meet their own sense of importance, rather than what the community could bear, and what the Hudson Gallery really had to have in order to maintain a good gallery. So that I don't think it was really as much of an indication that the community couldn't support the gallery, as I feel—although on the surface it looked that way. I feel it was really a badly managed thing. People came and used it for their own build up, and then didn't really give a damn what happened to it.

[00:11:04.59]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, so the closing then, you don't see as any sort of trend, any sort of threat to galleries dealing with contemporary art in Detroit today?

[00:11:16.53]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, I think that galleries dealing in contemporary art today is a whole different thing, Dennis. I care very much about the city, as I said to you before. And I don't know what's going to happen in the city. I do know that I'm constantly being told I should open in Birmingham or Bloomfield, that I should move out of the city, that this gentleman won't let his wife come into the city and so on and so forth. And they're afraid to come and all of this.

[00:11:47.49]

I think that's a lot of hogwash. I think that the gallery or any of the galleries in Detroit can really maintain themselves as well as ever, if they want to. There's a lot of pain that goes into having a gallery if you want to make standards. You're sort of a masochist, because you get punished by the artists who […  –G.K.]—I had one collector, I told you who called Robert Motherwell, trying to pretend he was a dealer.

[00:12:17.12]

You have collectors who are so out to take your commission, begrudge you that. And then you have a community where the power structure is indifferent to its galleries. I can have a very important show like Eric Stoller. He's a young, unknown artist. But what he was doing with his light, with his movie, film, and his slides was very important for young artists working with slides and movies in the community to see.

[00:12:44.35]

And the Free Press wouldn't cover the show. They said that the gallery had had too much coverage. And I said, "Well, it isn't the gallery I'm asking for. It's that this is a newsworthy thing for the community". So you don't get real support for the kind of thing you're doing. And this becomes a frustration. You know? And then you get museum staff people who think it's all right to send people to a New York gallery to buy something. But if they were to send someone to a local gallery to buy something, this would be commercialism. I mean, the mentality of these things really befuddles me.

[00:13:21.95]

DENNIS BARRIE:  So as a result, the museum does not purchase from local galleries?

[00:13:26.86]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, I wouldn't say never.

[00:13:29.78]

DENNIS BARRIE:  But rarely.

[00:13:30.43]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Rarely, and I think a lot of it boils down to confidence, too. Maybe they feel more confident working through—

[00:13:41.40]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Being in New York.

[00:13:42.63]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yes. It might really be that too. It's more prestigious, and you could say, "Oh, I got this in such and such a gallery." And you feel so important. [Laughs.] It's interesting. Art has become a lot of different things to different people. And I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot about human nature. I've learned about the whole structure of the art scene. It's been a very broadening, really kind of remarkable experience. But I must say that I had to open my eyes and learn. [Laughs.]

[00:14:15.78]

DENNIS BARRIE:  I think we all do.

[00:14:18.04]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  —Do, that's right.

[00:14:20.35]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Well then, all right, from your own experience and from experiences around you, how do galleries survive in Detroit? Let's just say Detroit, I'm not worried about Chicago or New York or Minneapolis.

[00:14:34.51]

GERTRUDE KASLE: I suppose some survive by meeting the demands of the public, which might be to show pretty pictures. I think some survive by meeting the demands of the public insofar as insisting that this is a good investment. Buy it and you'll make money on it. I think some survived by doing framing. Some survive by selling artifacts, or crafts, or jewelry. And some, I suppose, just survive on love. [Laughs.] That's all I can say.

[00:15:06.94]

DENNIS BARRIE:  The ones on love, those are the most interesting, I think. But do you think it's particularly a thriving period for galleries in Detroit?

[00:15:22.12]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, the economy is so bad, Dennis, that I think today people are afraid to spend money. And I think that right now, I don't think it has anything to do really with the art scene as much as it does with the economy.

[00:15:33.37]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Just very depressing.

[00:15:33.45]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  And I think you have to recognize that. On the other hand, I think a lot of people who buy good art still have plenty of money to buy good art. I think they might be a little afraid to spend the money, you know? So that I think that the buying power for the gallery is still there, although I understand that generally it's been very, very quiet since about last spring.

[00:16:04.90]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I would think so.

[00:16:06.33]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yeah.

[00:16:07.77]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Just two or three final questions. What are the limits to what you will show? I think you seem to concentrate mostly on painting and some graphic. Do you do much sculpture?

[00:16:23.23]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, as you see, this is a Mike Todd, and behind you is a Tony Rosenthal, and then we had a Julius Schmidt show [and Ibram Lassaw –Ed.].  It's very difficult to ship sculpture. It becomes a physical handicap more [than anything else –Ed.]. This is Julius Schmidt's most recent. We have had a sculptors' show almost every year. I think every year for sure. But it is very, very difficult to ship sculpture, and to install a show. It's a physical—terribly exhausting.

[00:16:59.17]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yes. So what are sculptors doing, just getting—

[00:17:01.60]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, what I've done with some of my sculptors is work on a commission basis for them, rather than giving them shows, work with slides and photographs [inaudible]. I'm getting them commissions.

[00:17:17.19]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Right. You mentioned—and for the life of me, I've just forgotten his name. But the last show that was in here was a light show?

[00:17:27.81]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Eric Stoller.

[00:17:29.04]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yes, and now he's also doing work with slides and so forth?

[00:17:34.23]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  He did a very beautiful—it was a tremendous installation, and took a great deal of time to install. And it was very well installed. He came out from New York. And we had boxes around the ceiling, and the film ran on four different canvases that were on the floor, creating four different images moving all simultaneously. And then there was a screen suspended from the ceiling that showed three different slide boxes working together, electrically, of course, on the screen creating marvelous images.

[00:18:10.65]

And the rhythm of the slides clicking was almost as marvelous as the visual image. I mean it was like a John Cage musical composition. And we had the lights out. We had black felt closing off the doors. And people would come in and sit down, and we'd switch the switch on and first the slide show would take place, and then the movie cameras would start working. So it was a whole kind of technical and visual experience. And Doug Peterson from the Art Train said it was technically so superbly done. He would love to get this young man to do something for the Art Train in the future.

[00:18:48.26]

And I just felt that it was something thing that was newsworthy enough to be covered by the papers in order to get the young people experimenting with film and slides in to see it. They weren't [inaudible]. The funny part of it was I have watched this young man's work for about five years. He was at Western Michigan for a while. And he would come in and bring his various creative efforts for me to see. And I knew he had the germ of something.

[00:19:16.91]

Anyway, when Emmy was inventorying the work—because we had Mon Levinson's beautiful paper constructions in the front of the gallery, because I thought they were a great contrast. This object-oriented art to this mechanical, technical creative expression. She said, "What do you have to sell [of Eric Stoller's –Ed.]?" And I said, "Oh Emmy, I never thought about that." [Laughs.]

[00:19:39.93]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yes.

[00:19:40.01]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  I mean, there was really nothing to sell in that show, although he did write it up. And she called him and said, "How do we inventory this?" And so he gave her the two descriptions. So that it really just seemed so sad to me that here [the press –Ed.] should turn their back on something in the community that really was of interest to the creative group, you know, in the community.

[00:20:07.13]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Now we implied before that they turned their back for a number of reasons. But is there an implication here that some of these things are too avant-garde for this community?

[00:20:18.23]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  No, I don't think so. I mean avant-garde, well, not any more for this community than any other community. Because I think people who came in and saw it enjoyed it. And we had people of all ages—older people, young people, and they all enjoyed it.

[00:20:37.17]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Have you seen or wanted to show people work that you felt just was a little too far in advance for—

[00:20:44.93]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yes. Yes, that happened with Eva Hesse. I met her. Mike Todd took me to her studio. And this was about eight years ago. And she had these marvelous rope structures, constructions, hanging from the ceiling, coming down. And she was a lovely young woman, and had no name whatsoever. And I absolutely was in awe by her creativity. I mean, this was really great work. And I would have loved to have brought that work into the gallery. And I said to them, "But if I do it, you have to know nobody's going to understand it. But worse than that, nobody from the museum will come and look at it."

[00:21:30.24]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Mm-hmm [affirmative].

[00:21:31.77]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  And I felt that it would be kind of an insult to her, just like when Philip Guston had his first opening here, and no one from the museum came. And he was bewildered. In New York, all the great collectors and all the museum people come to his openings. And it was an insult to him. And when I tried to explain to one [known Detroit –Ed.] collector about not having come, and how Phil only wanted their eyes—I mean, they could be hospitable, they could do anything. [He had entertained him and then didn’t attend the opening! –Ed.] But if they didn't come to his opening and their eyes weren't on his work, this is an insult an artist. Well, the answer I got was, "Well this isn't New York."

[00:22:18.09]

But you see, this is the community where I live. And I want it to be thought of as well as possible. And I felt to bring Eva Hesse here and to have this kind of response would hurt her, because she's a highly sensitive person. And so she said that she thought if there was no audience for it, that I really shouldn't do it. I mean, after all, this isn't just an ego trip. You have to feel that you're serving your artist to the best advantage. Then, of course, after she died of a brain tumor, she was picked up, and I guess Marlborough, the great dealer Marlborough, Frank Lloyd.

[00:22:57.51]

DENNIS BARRIE:  He's a great guy.

[00:22:58.05]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yeah. He was handling her estate, and now she's very prestigious, and our museum gave her a show, and you know it's all very acceptable. And that's painful. I'd like to feel that there were enough people who would give that kind of support. But I don't think that that's to be hoped for with the emphasis on the snob appeal, the social appeal, the collecting for investment appeal. As long as the emphasis is in this area and there isn't a [man like –Ed.] Mr. Knox, of the Albright-Knox in Albany, who really just loves art, and isn't interested in whether it's shown in New York or Detroit or anyplace. He loves art, and he's built a great collection for them in contemporary. We don't have that kind of collecting. We really don't. It might come. This younger group coming up, maybe there'll be stronger leadership, and more conviction, and more assurance, and more interest in the community. Detroit is not a very loved city.

[00:24:01.01]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Very what?

[00:24:01.55]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Loved.

[00:24:02.12]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Loved, yes.

[00:24:03.74]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  You know, I moved here, I was really kind of saddened by the neglect. Even that was almost 30 years ago. No great parks, really very little given. New York had Rockefeller, and the Paleys, and the Whitneys, and the Guggenheims. And you just name it, all the great families wanted to give.

[00:24:28.76]

And I grew up with that, because you go to the Metropolitan, and so many wonderful collections there that have been willed. And you go into Central Park; so many things given there, the band concerts in the evening. And even now Paley gave that wonderful waterfall park, a terribly expensive property. And Detroit, they'd be thinking of how they could use it to make more money. And then 30 years ago, we went riding up Lake Shore Drive, and those marvelous estates, and then nothing for the city. So it isn't really anything today. This goes way, way back, where people were thinking of building up industry, and not building up a lifestyle or a life quality.

[00:25:13.10]

DENNIS BARRIE:  And you say there is no one really comparable to Knox in Detroit, now or in the last—

[00:25:17.84]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Not that kind of collector.

[00:25:21.81]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yeah. Although there are several—

[00:25:23.61]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Good collections.

[00:25:24.52]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yeah.

[00:25:24.98]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Sure, people who are putting together good collections for their private use. But you don't find that insatiable love of looking. They don't connect to art with looking for some reason or other. Because people don't have to like Gertrude Kasle. They don't have to like a dealer. They just want to look at art. They come in the gallery and look. It isn't a personal kind of thing.

[00:25:53.31]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Right. Who would you like to display that you haven't so far? I'm sure the list is endless. But can you think of two or three people that you were really anxiously—

[00:26:03.53]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, Jasper Johns and Rauschenberg would be two I would say right off, because I think they're incredibly creative, great talents of the 20th century. I wish I had been able to have a Pollock show if I had had a gallery 20 years ago—or a Rothko. Those are the very great artists to have exposed to the Middle West. I don't think they really have the roots of contemporary American Art in their mind's eye right now. I don't think they've had this kind of exposure. People say they hate Pollock. What have they ever seen of Pollock's? Reproduction in a book? You can't judge Pollock by a reproduction.

[00:26:42.32]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Very little [inaudible]. What do you think—for the last two questions, what do you think the impact of your gallery has been on the community?

[00:26:59.67]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  You know, would be very hard for me really to judge that. Because I'm in it. Somebody outside looking at it might be able to answer that better for you. I would hope that it's been a stimulus, that it's helped young artists be more their own person, and that it's helped people visually that they've grown into an appreciation for the creative quality of contemporary art. I think that we've had some inroads made with appreciation of American art. I think maybe before the gallery first opened there wasn't that much emphasis on what was happening in this country. When I moved here, there was really very little recognition of what was going on here.

[00:27:48.47]

DENNIS BARRIE:  There does seem to be wider recognition in the community.

[00:27:53.70]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yes, I guess so.

[00:27:57.78]

DENNIS BARRIE:  What do you see as the directions for the gallery in the next ten years?

[00:28:05.46]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, knowing my limitations, and I am a limited person, I'm not able to develop in certain areas the way I know I really should have been able to develop. I probably will go on pretty much the way I've been doing [laughs] right up 'til now. I don't know that I can do much more. I work with the Detroit Art Dealers Association, because I'd like to see a strong gallery scene. I would love the Detroit Art Dealers Association to get behind a big downtown space and give local artists exhibits. I'd like to see the opportunity for more of the creative talent to get exposure. But for the gallery itself, I really don't know that I can change the format, because this is so much a part of me, being the way I would operate a gallery. I don't think I could change it. [Laughs.]

[00:29:01.28]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Very good. I think we've about covered what I wanted to cover. There are lots of places we haven't covered. And I'll think about it later—

[00:29:09.17]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Well, if you think up some more questions, Dennis, don't hesitate. You can come over with some more questions when you go over the material, if you think there are loopholes.

[00:29:17.07]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yes.

[00:29:17.73]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  You make it very easy to talk to. And you become absolutely unaware of this little mechanism here.

[00:29:25.51]

DENNIS BARRIE:  That's the most important thing.

[00:29:26.92]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yeah.

[00:29:27.74]

DENNIS BARRIE:  It really is. Yeah, well I think we'll close for today. And we'll think of—I may think about some further questions to talk about.

[00:29:33.06]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Right, sure. I could tell you though, Dennis, one of the big thrills of my life was when Betty Parsons came and stayed overnight with me, and bought something out of my gallery. And I had just opened the gallery, and I was so thrilled think that a New York dealer would come to Detroit and buy something from my gallery. And then Harry Abrams, the art book publisher, came in and bought a little Goodnough from me. These were things that were sort of exciting. I had a collector fly in for Ian Hornak's show, and buy two Hornaks because he couldn't find what he wanted in New York. I always loved it when we could reverse the tables a little bit.

[00:30:11.29]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yes, that really is kind of fun.

[00:30:13.00]

GERTRUDE KASLE:  Yeah.

[00:30:13.90]

DENNIS BARRIE:  Yeah. Okay.

[END OF TRACK AAA_kasle75_8053_m]

[END OF INTERVIEW.]