Transcript
Preface
The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Elisabeth "Betsy" Ross Zogbaum on December 3, 1981. The interview was conducted by Garnett McCoy for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.
The original transcript was edited. In 2024 the Archives retranscribed the original audio and attempted to create a verbatim transcript. This transcript has been lightly edited for readability by the Archives of American Art. The reader should bear in mind that they are reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose. Additional information from the original transcript has been added in brackets and given an –Ed. attribution.
Interview
[00:00:07.03]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I met—I can't remember how I met Kipp Soldwedel.
[00:00:15.71]
GARNETT MCCOY: Can I interrupt you for just a second?
[00:00:17.66]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Sure.
[00:00:17.93]
GARNETT MCCOY: This is Garnett McCoy. And I am talking to Betsy Zogbaum. And the date is November 3, 1981. All right. Where are you from?
[00:00:33.67]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: It's December.
[00:00:36.25]
GARNETT MCCOY: December 3. Did I say December?
[00:00:41.16]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I believe you said November.
[00:00:42.37]
GARNETT MCCOY: Well, December 3. [Laughs.] Good to get that straight. [They laugh.]
[00:00:54.61]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I met Zog through Kipp Soldwedel, young Kipp, who was—I can't remember how I met him. But he was at St. George's at the same time as Zog was—Wilfrid Meynell Zogbaum, who was named after the poet and editor and head of the family of the Meynells, who founded a Catholic poetry magazine called Merry England. And they had some clippings, or something, but they also had some poetry sent in. As it was a family business, they didn't get around to really looking at it right away. But when they got around to looking at it, they suddenly realized that this was a very remarkable—that this man had great talent.
[00:02:26.79]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes.
[00:02:27.23]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: But they didn't know either his name or his address. So in desperation, they published his poems, the ones he sent him.
[00:02:40.18]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:02:41.38]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And though he didn't come from a poor family, he was at that time a—well, he was addicted to both alcohol and laudanum. And the Meynells were delighted to—they took him to a doctor. And the doctor said that Francis Thompson could not survive having these withdrawal—he wouldn't survive the withdrawal of either the laudanum or the alcohol. The Meynells took a chance. And they put him, I believe, in some—well, it wasn't—I don't think it was exactly a nursing home, but it was a place that was run by some Catholic monks. And he pulled through. I believe it was after that that he began to write his best-known poems.
[00:04:01.78]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see. He was known as a Catholic poet, wasn't he, a religious poet?
[00:04:10.95]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: "They have chased me down the highway of my life, the hound of Heaven."
[00:04:18.42]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yes, yes.
[00:04:23.13]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And it was really thanks to the Meynells that Francis Thompson continued and flowered. And Margaret knew the Meynells, and so she named her firstborn Wilfrid Meynell Zogbaum.
[00:04:45.32]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see. But she was not English, was she?
[00:04:50.51]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: No, but she lived in England a lot. And she was presented at the German court or that—[laughs]—whatever that honor might be. But I guess in those days, it may have been an honor.
[00:05:09.67]
GARNETT MCCOY: I suppose.
[00:05:15.47]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: But she was enormously impressed by the Meynells. And when Zog and I were first married, I received a letter from Mr. Meynell, saying that he hoped that we would come to Greatham. His wife, Alice Meynell, who wrote, "I'm a shepherdess of sheep, the lady of my delight," or something—
[00:05:54.02]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:05:55.76]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I think she's in the anthology of Oxford Book of English Verse. But Greatham was their country place. And Mr. Meynell referred to it as "Greatham with its atmosphere of immortal love." And I haven't the slightest idea where the letter is.
[00:06:19.58]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:06:20.45]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: But it was nice to—
[00:06:22.67]
GARNETT MCCOY: Very nice.
[00:06:23.27]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes—to hear from someone who was—they were an extraordinary family. The whole family were quite—
[00:06:37.44]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes.
[00:06:39.13]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And Margaret Zogbaum, I got along with her better than I did with any of her other daughters-in-law.
[00:06:47.40]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:06:49.66]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Despite the fact I had married her favorite son. But Margaret and I basically had much more in common than—we both had traveled.
[00:07:01.64]
GARNETT MCCOY: Was it a New York family?
[00:07:09.46]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: It was originally—let's see, I think the original Zogbaum came from [South Carolina –Ed.] —was into musical instruments, piano, possibly. I don't know if it was limited to that. But I know that Commodore Vanderbilt and Captain Zogbaum once looked up in the old annals of the Baldwin Piano and found that there were transactions between the two companies. And one of his—Rufus's great-great-grandfather was the Illustrator of the West.
[00:08:09.29]
GARNETT MCCOY: Great-great-grandfather?
[00:08:10.79]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes.
[00:08:11.96]
GARNETT MCCOY: My word.
[00:08:16.54]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And he wrote for Harper's Weekly and described the Indian—the beef issue. I'm not going to go describe that. But it was—I suppose they had reason to be scared of the Indians, but they really gave them such a raw deal.
[00:08:45.37]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yes.
[00:08:51.32]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: But in any case, I have one or two—one souvenir that Mr. Zogbaum, whom I never met—
[00:08:59.50]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, you didn't?
[00:09:00.65]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: No.
[00:09:01.87]
GARNETT MCCOY: He was a sculptor, was he not?
[00:09:03.73]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: No, he was a painter.
[00:09:04.49]
GARNETT MCCOY: A painter?
[00:09:05.39]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes, an illustrator.
[00:09:08.27]
GARNETT MCCOY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Rufus.
[00:09:09.02]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Rufus Fairchild Zogbaum.
[00:09:10.40]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes.
[00:09:13.98]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And in the pictures that I've seen down in the New York Public Library, they have quite a lot about the Illustrator of the West and of the Civil War, who was Rufus Fairchild Zogbaum. And I believe Mr. Zogbaum died in New York in 1925. And although they had lived in New Rochelle, which was an artist colony at one time, one of the two, I believe—although because I came across a letter which Captain Rufus Fairchild Zogbaum wrote to my mother from Tryon, North Carolina—And he said that in going through the attic, they found a miniature pennant of Admiral Farragut's "homeward bound" pennant, which is there.
[00:10:53.23]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Isn't that nice to have?
[00:10:58.83]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yep. And below is the Saratoga, of which he was in command.
[00:11:03.93]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yes.
[00:11:05.64]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Sister airplane carrier of the Lexington.
[00:11:11.38]
GARNETT MCCOY: I had dinner on it once.
[00:11:12.84]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: You did? Did you meet? On the Lexington?
[00:11:17.09]
GARNETT MCCOY: No, it was the Saratoga. It was about 1937 or '38 or something, in Hawaii.
[00:11:26.50]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Did you meet Captain Zogbaum?
[00:11:29.73]
GARNETT MCCOY: Well, I don't know whether I did or not. I was only ten or twelve or so.
[00:11:34.56]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, I see. [They laugh.] I was going to say, you were very precocious. I did have luncheon when he was commanding the Saratoga. And that's how Zog pinned this thing, which said, what is the technical word for that?
[00:12:06.72]
GARNETT MCCOY: I don't know what you call it.
[00:12:09.03]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: It's tied around sailors' caps usually.
[00:12:12.23]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah, I don't know what you call it.
[00:12:14.25]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: There must be a specific word.
[00:12:16.08]
GARNETT MCCOY: There must be, but I don't know what it is.
[00:12:20.19]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: So then—
[00:12:25.34]
GARNETT MCCOY: But did Wilfrid grow up in—Wilfrid Meynell Zogbaum grow up in New Rochelle?
[00:12:33.31]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, no, he never lived in New Rochelle. I was speaking of his—
[00:12:41.67]
GARNETT MCCOY: His family.
[00:12:43.48]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: —his father. I came across a letter which mentioned that he was sending his pennant on to me, which had been made by the son of Admiral Farragut. And it been sewn to Wilfrid Meynell Zogbaum's christening robes, blanket, or whatever it was, and that I could do with it what I wanted. But he mentioned the year of '88. Well, I guess that was the big blizzard. And he said he had the croup. He had the croup kettle going. But he was dying to get out in the snow because it looked so marvelous. Not the ideal thing for anyone with the croup.
[00:13:52.21]
GARNETT MCCOY: No. [Laughs.]
[00:13:53.16]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: But he did mention that. Now, I assumed that he was living in New York because Mr. Luiz—it's so difficult with so many Zogbaums. [Laughs.]
[00:14:10.56]
GARNETT MCCOY: So many of them.
[00:14:11.49]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Wilfrid Meynell Zogbaum. But in any case, he—oh, the only person who took after in his build and coloring was Aunt Kitty, who died about three years ago up in Gilbertsville. And I know that—
[00:14:39.64]
GARNETT MCCOY: She was his father's sister?
[00:14:42.15]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. And she was a perfect—we got along just beautiful. She was so sweet. And Margaret was—she did have an unfortunate talent for creating enemies or make—
[00:15:08.80]
GARNETT MCCOY: Strong-minded woman, she was.
[00:15:12.72]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes, certainly was. If you had some good silver, hers was better. But her son David had traveled in a—trying to hunt crocodiles.
[00:15:49.45]
GARNETT MCCOY: It must have been a family with some money.
[00:15:54.85]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I don't think they had a great deal of money, but they—well, of course, he—I don't know how much he was paid for his work on Harper's Weekly. But he worked, and he—as nearly as I could tell, well, he was one of the first centurions, for example.
[00:16:24.51]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, really?
[00:16:24.99]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah. And people of a certain generation—Stanley Isaacs, who was the president of the city council when I first got a scholarship, partial scholarship, for Rufus at Dalton. And every year, I would have to be interviewed by Mr. Isaacs to see whether my marital—what my financial situation was. And had it been changed for the better, I would have—Rufus would not have gotten the scholarship. But it hadn't changed, so that was that.
[00:17:08.38]
But he said the name Zogbaum, that's a familiar name. And it was because Rudyard Kipling wrote The Doggerel, which, somewhat paraphrasing it, "Zogbaum does things with the pencil, and I do things with the pen. But fighting Bob commands I don't know how many thousand men." And that was the thing that was sort of popularized. And that's the thing that a lot of people knew—that's one of the reasons why they knew the name—that Zogbaum was a familiar name.
[00:17:55.99]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see. Yeah. But then his work would have been familiar to readers of Harper's Weekly too.
[00:18:03.77]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. Oh, very much so. But is Harper's Weekly still going?
[00:18:11.30]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, no, no. But it was a major publication of the late 19th century. It was quite the popular item.
[00:18:21.27]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. In 1880, Mr. Zogbaum went to a—well, this is digressing I think so much. I don't want to get into his great-grandfather's work, other than the fact that he was the illustrator, and contributed to Harper's Weekly.
[00:18:56.43]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes. Yes, that should be sufficient.
[00:18:58.94]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I think so, because I could go on forever.
[00:19:01.91]
GARNETT MCCOY: Showing an art interest in the family background.
[00:19:08.56]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes, it seemed to either be towards the sea, generally speaking, or towards painting—painting or sculpting. And Zog had attended—he attended St. George's. And I believe when he was twelve years old, he took a boat from—I suppose when we were first married, he was very much in love with me, and we did photography together. And unfortunately, as he himself admitted—he was fabulous with a camera, more so than my Rufus.
[00:20:20.92]
I mean, it was like handing—any machine would be like handling a Stradivarius violin. He had respect for any machine. So when we were out, we went out to visit Lee and Jackson Pollock. And Lee said that there was one bit of property on Fireplace Road which is still a bargain. So although we had planned originally to use it only as a summer—we didn't have it winterized or anything like that, and the lights were outdoors, outside. I had more talent—not with the camera, but I had more talent with the models. I have a good eye. I'm almost completely visually-oriented.
[00:21:43.41]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:21:45.54]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And I would spot certain places that would be terrific for fashion photography. Once you do it, you never can forget it. That's the horrible part about it. And one strange thing did happen to me. And this is nothing to do with Franz Kline. But it wasn't until after Zog died, in '65, I believe it was, I was coming down the Lexington Avenue bus, and I suddenly looked up, and I saw something that was so photogenic, I thought, "My God, I have to go back and tell Zog about that." But this was only after he had died.
[00:22:34.50]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes. It's the habit.
[00:22:40.38]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: You know, that's what I got excited about. But Zog didn't like being—well, I think he quite naturally objected to the fact that he was—you know, he built the sets, and we got an assistant. But then he lost interest in photography, I think to a very strong degree.
[Recorder stops; restarts.]
[00:23:31.90]
And he gave me the choice of either supporting the family or helping support the family with fashion photography by myself or going out to Springs and being a housewife. I was not—although I had this flair, this background flair, I didn't feel that I knew enough technically about lights and all that sort of thing to know, to go on by myself. And if you freelance in photography, it's almost always a feast or famine.
[00:24:31.57]
GARNETT MCCOY: Well, it's very competitive, isn't it?
[00:24:34.54]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: It is competitive. I think that there's a certain amount of—or was at that time, a certain amount of—a certain amount of bribing, I guess, went on. Some of the photographers would give your art directors some money or something so they'd use their work. But it was not common to any of—to any of us or our friends in the photographic world. And of course, Zog, having been—he was Hans Hofmann's favorite students.
[00:25:24.86]
GARNETT MCCOY: Was he?
[00:25:26.01]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, sure. Hans was crazy about him. And he used to imitate the way he walked. But he was really—he really was crazy—I think he was one of his—really favorite students.
[00:25:49.51]
GARNETT MCCOY: Where did he study before the Hofmann School?
[00:25:54.23]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: He went to Yale briefly. And then he went—let's see. It couldn't have been Robert Henri?
[00:26:14.12]
GARNETT MCCOY: No, I don't—it would be too early. He died in 1929.
[00:26:18.35]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Right. There was another well-known painter that he studied with whom he didn't like.
[00:26:29.33]
GARNETT MCCOY: Not Luks?
[00:26:31.63]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I don't remember whom he studied with.
[00:26:41.74]
GARNETT MCCOY: Was it at the Art Students League?
[00:26:44.93]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I don't believe he ever studied there, although Mr. Zogbaum had studied at the Art Students League.
[00:26:51.82]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, I see.
[00:26:54.07]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And my Rufus studied at the Art Students League. But Zog did not.
[00:26:59.52]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:27:02.24]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And he went back to drawing. And that's an example of his work there, which is hidden. I think some of the best work he did was done at that period, of charcoal on paper. I think that's labeled '55. And both of us were having—he announced—I'm trying to think when he announced—what Christmas Eve he announced to me that he no longer loved me and wanted his freedom. But having had a very, very loving family, overprotected—my father came from Virginia, was a metallurgical engineer. And my mother came from Tennessee. But I was born in Plattsburgh, New York, which is about 100 miles from the Canadian border.
[00:28:16.04]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes.
[00:28:19.15]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And the first thing in the spring, very early spring, we go out to the country and push away these dry, brown leaves. And there on the black earth was this trail of blossoms, which were pink and white.
[00:28:44.30]
GARNETT MCCOY: How nice.
[00:28:45.51]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Trailing arbutus. I believe it's an endangered species.
[00:28:51.03]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, nice.
[00:28:51.54]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: But that and my father lifting me up and—I mean, you could almost see a man's hat walking along the street. And the winters were cold.
[00:29:07.38]
GARNETT MCCOY: It must have been.
[00:29:08.82]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I mean, mother said that she remembered the horses pulling the logs across Lake Champlain. Both my parents came from the South. My father came from Virginia, and he was a metallurgical engineer.
[00:29:34.17]
GARNETT MCCOY: Whereabouts in Virginia, do you know?
[00:29:36.37]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Patrick County. And he was—
[END OF TRACK AAA_zogbau81_7935_m]
[00:00:03.85]
GARNETT MCCOY: Right. When did you leave Plattsburgh?
[00:00:12.84]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I think when I was about five or six years old.
[00:00:17.26]
GARNETT MCCOY: And the family moved?
[00:00:18.66]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: The entire family moved Normandy Park outside of Morristown, New Jersey, which at that time was one of the—was the second-richest small towns in America. And it was not really for us. It was—I mean, mother's interest—my mother was a college graduate. She taught school in Texas. She had an insatiable interest in all sorts of different things, which I have inherited. I wish I could blame this mess on the strike, but I can't. [They laugh.]
[00:01:15.28]
GARNETT MCCOY: Were you an only child?
[00:01:16.97]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: No, I have an older sister who is, I'm afraid, ill. I see very little hope of her recovering from the disease of alcoholism.
[00:01:37.86]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh.
[00:01:38.31]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And I don't think that it would—But one time, Franz did make—mother was quite unpleasant to him the one time she met him. And he did make reference to the fact that he had two daughters who were alcoholics, because I had a bout myself.
[00:02:00.71]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:02:03.38]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And so I could be more sympathetic to people who have the illness. I haven't—let's see. I'm trying to think when I had my last drink, apart from trying to get down the eggnog that my housekeeper brought that had rum in it. My God, that was strong. I just finally tossed—poured it down the drain. Because when you haven't had any alcohol, it's astonishing. Not the effect, but it is not a pleasant taste.
[00:02:52.18]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:02:54.93]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: The only thing that I do regret is that I—let's see, since 1963 was the last time I took a drink.
[00:03:06.10]
GARNETT MCCOY: That's a long time.
[00:03:08.46]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah, but it's much easier to go to stop drinking than it is, say, to go on a diet. Much easier, because you just say no. You ask for ginger ale and a champagne glass, and nobody's going to know the difference. It's a cinch. But to lose weight is something else again.
[00:03:38.10]
GARNETT MCCOY: Tell me some more about Morristown. Did you—
[00:03:40.62]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I think we can.
[00:03:41.94]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah, it's going.
[00:03:48.00]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: You mean the whole time? I'm—
[00:03:49.87]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, I can erase that if you want. That's all right. It's all—it's all good.
[00:03:58.06]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Well, actually, I don't really mind people knowing it, because it has given me a knowledge of what it is like that people—this does not apply to narcotic addicts. I think narcotic addicts really enjoy. And the people whom I knew—I never went to AA. I mean, I went to AA, and promptly wanted to go to the nearest bar. It scared me so. The whole thing just terrified me. Fortunately, as I say, I got in the hands of a good doctor, and I haven't had a drop since. That eggnog the other evening, which was—I—boy, gee, that was strong. It was rich.
[00:05:15.33]
GARNETT MCCOY: It is rich.
[00:05:16.83]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah, but it's just too strong for me. And rum is a very—I do not like rum, but that's [inaudible].
[00:05:31.93]
GARNETT MCCOY: Let's go back to Morristown, Betsy.
[00:05:36.19]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: All right. Morristown, when we lived there, it was a—Normandy Park at that time was—it was lit by gas. And every afternoon, a boy on a bicycle would come around and light the gas lamp lights.
[00:06:09.48]
GARNETT MCCOY: Very old-fashioned.
[00:06:10.74]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Very old fashioned and very charming. Of course, almost all of the people who lived there were very rich indeed. And I wouldn't ever consider that my family were rich. I think—I don't know what the word would be. Well-to-do, I suppose, is the nearest thing to it.
[00:06:41.46]
GARNETT MCCOY: Comfortable?
[00:06:42.62]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, very. And as my mother was travel happy. And also I think it's unfair to label people who are interested in the fine arts—either the performing arts or anything else—call them culture vultures. My mother was; my grandmother was. They all were fascinated. It ran in the family. And I was taken in—mother that took me and I saw Anna Pavlova.
[00:07:38.68]
GARNETT MCCOY: You did?
[00:07:41.25]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. I must say, the only thing—she was doing the dying swan, and with that hideous—what's the word? It's not lacking in imagination, but it's a certain practical thing. She didn't look like a dying swan to me. She just looked like a lady who was wearing a white frilled skirt and was leaning over. I was simply—it was very practical. That's the only thing I remember about it.
[00:08:31.87]
GARNETT MCCOY: Well, the dance is a cultivated taste, I guess.
[00:08:38.34]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I suppose. I believe—I'm not sure whether I ever was taken in to see [inaudible]. But all the names were totally familiar to me. And I was brought up on the arias, for example, the Barcarolle and the [inaudible], and also on the music of Paul Robeson, "Water Boy." And this was all my mother's doing.
[00:09:15.96]
GARNETT MCCOY: She didn't dabble in painting, did she, or write? It was more of a musical interest.
[00:09:22.39]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: No, on the contrary. She was visually oriented as well as being travel happy. Now, this [inaudible]—[Pause.] Now, those are albatrosses. And mother would call me up and say, "Does the beak of the albatross go up or go down?" I'd look it up in the—Rufus' child's encyclopedia, or a young person's encyclopedia, which showed a picture of an albatross, and the beak went a certain way. These are all made out of paper napkins.
[00:10:28.78]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, really?
[00:10:29.85]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah, and it's—
[00:10:34.09]
GARNETT MCCOY: Who did them?
[00:10:35.17]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: My mother.
[00:10:35.68]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, did she? Oh, that's—I like that.
[00:10:41.32]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: It is an astonishing piece of work.
[00:10:43.53]
GARNETT MCCOY: It is.
[00:10:49.62]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And it was a friend of ours who was always collecting—having albatrosses, or people who were somehow lame ducks. Randolph Carr, and she did it for him. "And he prayeth best who loveth best all things both great and small. But the dear God who made this earth, he—something [inaudible]—made and loveth all."
[00:11:28.88]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah.
[00:11:29.15]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And did one—no, both my mother and my sister, had they gone to an art school, would have been remarkable.
[00:11:44.25]
GARNETT MCCOY: I can see.
[00:11:53.42]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: See? And you can see what she—you can see—from the different trade magazines you get, she took these and made them.
[00:12:09.26]
GARNETT MCCOY: Uh-huh [affirmative]. Like a Corot.
[00:12:13.22]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I haven't thought of that. Yeah, I hadn't thought of it in that—
[00:12:24.16]
GARNETT MCCOY: It's wonderful.
[00:12:26.35]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And in the back, she—this camel is a very determined animal. He wanted to be in the picture, even on the back. I thought it was such a good [inaudible]. I think that—
[00:13:18.63]
GARNETT MCCOY: So you just sort of knock them off now and then, eh?
[00:13:22.45]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah. Yes, as a matter of fact, some of her paintings of zebras, which I have somewhere around here—mother—Well, no—
[00:13:44.12]
GARNETT MCCOY: But then you—and di you go to school in Morristown?
[00:13:47.20]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah.
[00:13:47.66]
GARNETT MCCOY: High school?
[00:13:48.62]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: No, I was put back one year—the second grade. And I think it was in third grade that we were started—Mrs. Peck started—may not have been third, but it certainly was very early in the game that we were taught "amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant."
[00:14:22.52]
And we had a French teacher who was a Mademoiselle who wore a yellow smock, and a black beret—velvet, naturally. And she would demonstrate the differences between accent grave and accent aigu and accent circumflex by doing a beret in one way. But the only thing that I was left with was the picture of Mademoiselle with that black beret on one side or another, which didn't mean a darn thing to me. [They laugh.] But I remember Mademoiselle very well indeed. But—
[00:15:15.86]
GARNETT MCCOY: So did you get interested in photography when you were still in school?
[00:15:20.36]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: No, I went to school—as a matter of fact, that was where I first—Felicia Meyer, whose father's work—he was an artist who was [inaudible]. And his wife, Felicia's mother, was also a painter.
[00:15:51.24]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes.
[00:15:51.60]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: But I think she might have been a better painter, but she didn't do it because it would have upset him. But he was the first—I think he was with the Macbeth Gallery, if I'm not mistaken.
[00:16:08.58]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:16:08.79]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I wouldn't swear to it, but I know that he was the first—although, in school—let's see. There were the two daughters of George Bellows. Sheila Raleigh, who was the daughter of Henry Patrick Raleigh, the illustrator. Jane Swope, who was the daughter of Herbert Bayard Swope. The daughter of Madame Margarete Matzenauer, the famous, famous contralto with incredible musical memory, and absorbed music.
She was unbelievable. She once visited the school, and she had loads and loads of things around her neck. And she filled the entire door. But she was a great singer. But her daughter—in other words, a great many children of famous—of noted artists were in the school. And somehow, I always had the idea that they were special. I can't trace it down for the simple reason that I don't think my mother ever said anything about it. But I know that I somehow had the feeling that they were very—they were sort of apart.
[00:18:06.46]
GARNETT MCCOY: Privileged in a way.
[00:18:08.68]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, yes. And my—or a Latin teacher, Ms. Endicott, who thought that teaching was—she was a born—she was a great teacher. And although Felicia had—who married Reggie—who was Reggie's second wife.
[00:18:38.38]
GARNETT MCCOY: I talked to his first wife a couple of years ago, Mrs. Woodhouse. Wonderful lady.
[00:18:45.44]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Really?
[00:18:45.79]
GARNETT MCCOY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. She's a sculptor too.
[00:18:51.85]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Isn't that interesting? I have—I came across a—when Reggie was—he was a war correspondent for LIFE magazine. And here's drawings and paintings he did of me that he erased. And behind here is a sketch which I knocked over yesterday. [Inaudible] the day before you [inaudible]. But that's a Marsh, which I think has no bearing on my looks, for all it's—
[00:19:48.03]
GARNETT MCCOY: It's a portrait of you?
[00:19:49.72]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah, but it looks like any—the other one—
[00:19:55.74]
GARNETT MCCOY: It's nice to have.
[00:19:56.92]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. We used to celebrate—we found out that we both were married on the same day.
[00:20:08.04]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh.
[00:20:08.43]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And so we used to have celebrations together. And then when Zog went back to painting out in the springs, the Marshes came down once. But Zog did not care to see the Marshes because Reggie was a representational artist. I mean, his art was. And the first thing I did when I got back to New York after Rufus—after Zog had sprung this thing on me—that was really—it was a very rough—
[00:21:20.00]
GARNETT MCCOY: It must have been.
[00:21:21.06]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah, it was. It was very rough.
[00:21:24.92]
GARNETT MCCOY: Did he and Reginald Marsh argue about art?
[00:21:32.08]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Heavens above, no. I think like all schools of painting, which go back to Giotto and Beato Angelico. Certainly, I think that—all the previous—I mean, I know that I read in some—I don't know—some book somewhere, where it said everyone is going after the work of Angelico, Fra Angelico, and had deserted Giotto. And they were furious.
[00:22:21.65]
GARNETT MCCOY: Same old thing. Felicia painted too, didn't she?
[00:22:28.27]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Absolutely. And Franz never met Reggie. But 1940, I believe, was the date he was working for the designer Cleon Throckmorton. I thought my text was in here. [Inaudible.]
[00:23:24.78]
GARNETT MCCOY: I wonder if you could say something about the 1930s. I don't suppose that Zogbaum was ever on the Federal Art Project, was he?
[00:23:39.80]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: No. The 1930s—
[00:23:51.14]
GARNETT MCCOY: Was he—when did he study with Hofmann? Was that in the '40s?
[00:24:01.36]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: He studied with Hans before the '40s, and then the war came along, the announcement that Pearl Harbor had been bombed. And we were at Carnegie Hall listening to a concert that Sunday afternoon. And Zog had already been drafted.
[00:24:37.99]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh.
[00:24:41.75]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: So the stage manager came back and said he had—they had just received news that the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor. And for that reason, he thought that the conductor, Bruno Walter, would play again the National Anthem.
[00:25:06.93]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yes.
[00:25:11.71]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And that was—I mean, I've been going around with Zog quite a lot, but I—we decided then and there we would get married. I didn't much want to get married at all.
[00:25:28.33]
GARNETT MCCOY: He was never involved in the political fights of the 1930s, was he?
[00:25:35.66]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Not to the best of my—I remember that there was—it wasn't in that [inaudible] Tibetan place. It was another place on Riverside Drive, where I think that the first of the—after the Ashcan school, there came another school of abstract painters. Suzy Frelinghuysen—if that's how you pronounce her name—and George L.K Morris.
[00:26:26.21]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah, this was the American Abstract Artists group.
[00:26:28.61]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes.
[00:26:30.03]
GARNETT MCCOY: Bolotowsky and—
[00:26:31.69]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah.
[00:26:33.57]
GARNETT MCCOY: —yes, and I think Reinhardt was in that group. There was quite a group of them.
[00:26:38.31]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, I should imagine.
[00:26:39.06]
GARNETT MCCOY: And it was an organization called the Abstract American Artists or American—Abstract American artists, I think.
[00:26:45.66]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And one person who was very, very active politically in that was a young painter by the name of Lee Krasner. And at that time, she was—she looked like a nice Peck & Peck girl, and she was friendly. And I met her at—we got to know each other somewhat. And I remember she and I were going out and had a dinner engagement. And I went down to her studio and—what's that blinking for?
[00:27:38.63]
GARNETT MCCOY: That shows that it's near the end of the reel.
[00:27:43.78]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Okay. Now, let's see how—I want to see how much material I've given you that is actually—
END OF TRACK AAA_zogbau81_7936_m]
[00:00:10.25]
GARNETT MCCOY: How long was Zogbaum in the Army?
[00:00:19.66]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Well, he was in the Army before Pearl Harbor. Zog, in some ways, was a curious man, because he was, I believe, completely trilingual. He also, although he could be—he was a cold man. He was an intelligent man. He would have been terrific in naval intelligence. But why he didn't do anything about it, until the draft caught up with him, God only knows. And it was too late then. But he was out at Monmouth, Fort Monmouth. First, he was at Camp Upton, then at Fort Monmouth. And then he enlisted in the OCS. And the first week, he was nervous. Were you ever in the Army?
[00:01:46.34]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes, in the later stages of the war.
[00:01:50.59]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, yes, you mentioned it.
[00:01:51.67]
GARNETT MCCOY: I was at Fort Monmouth, myself, for about a year.
[00:01:57.18]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: But you didn't have to go through the OCS?
[00:02:00.36]
GARNETT MCCOY: No.
[00:02:02.04]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Well, that was quite a grueling thing.
[00:02:04.53]
GARNETT MCCOY: It must have been.
[00:02:05.32]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah, I mean you got it bad. If you were caught buttoning your gloves, as you left the dormitory where you slept, that was a count against you. If there was one broom straw under your bed, that was another count against you.
[00:02:30.90]
GARNETT MCCOY: Was that at Fort Monmouth?
[00:02:32.64]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah. And Zog was bright. And if I remember correctly, the officer's—he was, of course—became a—what do you become when you—what's the first rank, Second Lieutenant?
[00:02:59.66]
GARNETT MCCOY: Second Lieutenant.
[00:03:00.41]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. But the officer's summary of him was not flattering. I think it was reasonably accurate in the sense that his disposition—they said he was surly. He was not an outgoing man, which is one of the several reasons why he was not good at photography.
[00:03:37.98]
GARNETT MCCOY: What do you say he had an artistic temperament, the temperament of an artist?
[00:03:52.47]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Well, he—he—no, I don't. I don't think he had an artistic temperament of an artist at all, at least none of the artists that I've known, even Franz Kline.
[00:04:12.52]
GARNETT MCCOY: Quite a different sort of person.
[00:04:14.32]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh. I mean, Franz Kline was so kind and so outgoing and so encouraging to young artists. And even when his work was being forged, and this young man, who lived in—who was staying in England—he always asked me for money—wrote. Because a collector came from England and said he purchased a Kline there. And Franz looked at it. And this was when he could afford a studio, on West 14th Street, for $200 a month. And that was before the inflation. I mean, before the dollar was devaluated.
[00:05:13.69]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes.
[00:05:15.04]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: So that was quite a lot of money.
[00:05:18.03]
GARNETT MCCOY: It was.
[00:05:19.70]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: And when I first met him, in 1950, he was in his early 40s. And he died in 1962 at the age of 51.
[00:05:40.13]
GARNETT MCCOY: Quite young, yes.
[00:05:41.99]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: He had a rheumatic heart.
[00:05:43.79]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:05:44.90]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Which he never told me. We would have—I would have acted very differently if he had told me that he had a rheumatic heart, but he did not.
[00:05:55.31]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah.
[00:05:55.64]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: And he had instigated or started divorce proceedings, but then we accidentally found out that his wife was in the—had been released from the institution at Central Islip, though she still lives out there.
[00:06:14.24]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, she does?
[00:06:14.84]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes.
[00:06:15.64]
GARNETT MCCOY: Really.
[00:06:16.85]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: And hates me.
[00:06:22.74]
GARNETT MCCOY: Hmm. Tell me, I want to get back to Zogbaum for a minute. When he went into the Army, he thought of himself as an artist, didn't he? I mean that was his profession. He hadn't—it wasn't something that he was still thinking about. He regarded himself as a—
[00:06:43.89]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: No. He thought of himself as a photographer.
[00:06:48.87]
GARNETT MCCOY: As a photographer? I see. Although he had been going to the Hofmann School.
[00:06:57.26]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. But he had done photography for a long time. And he did beautiful stuff. And they did—Well, I feel that his temperament was much more that of music. And the mistake that is so frequently made by people who show a marked interest or talent in a certain field, in the performing arts, or in what have you, is that they will not recognize the fact. I mean, they have to be—if they're going to be there, they have to be either Toscanini or Paderewski. They don't think of the other opportunities around, either writing, or being a critic, or something like that.
[00:08:11.58]
GARNETT MCCOY: Nothing but the best.
[00:08:13.59]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, which is, of course, extremely silly, and frequently, it makes for a very—for somebody who is not—I think I'd almost generalize and go as far as saying that it would make for a bad husband, a bad father. Because his mother, Margaret, wanted him to be a second Michelangelo. I believe she was the one that was responsible for that—for this attitude that he had. I would—I mean, when he came back from war—he was in the Pacific War.
[00:09:13.22]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:09:16.28]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Which was a very different type of war than the European—very different. There was an actual hatred of the Japanese.
[00:09:28.08]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yes.
[00:09:30.58]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: It was so tricky. But he came back. And I had—I wrote him every day. I got into photography, myself.
[00:09:52.01]
GARNETT MCCOY: During the war?
[00:09:53.03]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. All the good photographers had been drafted. [Laughs.]
[00:10:02.04]
GARNETT MCCOY: Did you live in Manhattan at the time?
[00:10:04.71]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, yes, always. Heaven. Oh, yes, we've always lived in Manhattan. But to go back to Lenox School, which, at that time, was the junior part of Finch College. As I say, that is where I met Felicia Marsh. And she was a painter. And Franz, as I say, never met Reggie. But he he saw him, because Reggie became famous almost directly after his leaving Yale.
[00:11:08.51]
GARNETT MCCOY: He was, yes.
[00:11:09.44]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: He finished.
[00:11:14.03]
GARNETT MCCOY: An illustrator in great demand with a great facility.
[00:11:24.10]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: And he did the sets for the—I've forgotten what "Follies" they were, but something. Not Ziegfeld, but it was something very, very much better than that. But Felicia was my oldest friend. And as I say, until Zog went back to painting and then went over to sculpture.
[00:11:51.55]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes. But then the circles that he and you moved in were quite different from the circles that the Marshes moved in, I mean, in the art world, were they not?
[00:12:12.51]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. Completely different. The Marshes gave the most marvelous parties. This was in their old, old apartment on—it was just off Fifth Avenue, on—could have been 10th or 11th Street or something like that. And I know that Philip Evergood and Peggy Bacon, Paul Cadmus, let's see, I think the duBois were there. And—
[00:13:07.40]
GARNETT MCCOY: Well, they were so very much of a group, like Kenneth Hayes Miller and Lloyd Goodrich was intimate with all those people. And it was a fairly cohesive group of artists, who had come out of the Art Students League in the early '20s and late teens.
[00:13:26.93]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes, it was. And when I—first thing I did, when I got back to New York, and Rufus and I moved back with my family up at Snedens Landing, the first thing I did, when I got in into New York, was to call up the Marshes. And this is where I cannot figure out my dates. Because they're crazy. Because Reggie died in '54, I believe, didn't he?
[00:14:04.16]
GARNETT MCCOY: I think it was. '53, maybe, somewhere in there. I can look it up.
[00:14:11.33]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah. Well, they said they were having a cocktail party the, let's see, the following Monday or Tuesday. And they would like to invite me, too. And Reggie, I thought, was looking badly. He looked pale. And he was very shy. And he'd come up and, you know, to attract your attention. He sketched constantly.
[00:14:59.71]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes.
[00:15:00.46]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Always sketching. And behind that white bureau, there is a Marsh.
[00:15:06.61]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, really?
[00:15:07.61]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. But the thing's [inaudible]. In any case, but at the Marshes, you met—I met Kenneth Hayes Miller, whom I had always—he was almost a god at the Art Students League, with the result that I had great suspicions of the man. Because I didn't think that he was—his followers were turning out the best work that they might have done.
[00:15:48.02]
GARNETT MCCOY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
[00:15:48.41]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: But I met him at the Marshes. And he was an extraordinarily interesting man to talk to.
[00:16:00.03]
GARNETT MCCOY: He was?
[00:16:00.47]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes, he was.
[00:16:04.71]
GARNETT MCCOY: He knew a lot?
[00:16:13.56]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: He—I don't understand how young people could come under his influence, which I still maintain was not necessarily the best. But you know, who knows?
[00:16:35.92]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yes.
[00:16:37.62]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Same thing was almost true of Hans Hofmann.
[00:16:40.47]
GARNETT MCCOY: There are probably those who say the same of him.
[00:16:42.75]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, sure. I mean, of the artists who achieved the top billing or the very top—Franz Kline, Jackson Pollock, Mark Rothko, Clyfford Still, and Bill de Kooning. I would say those were the ones who would—and not one of them—I mean, they knew Hans, of course, but none of them had gone to his school.
[00:17:33.57]
GARNETT MCCOY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. That is interesting, isn't it? And when Zogbaum came back from the war, did he take up photography again?
[00:17:48.55]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, yes, absolutely.
[00:17:51.67]
GARNETT MCCOY: He had to make a living.
[00:17:53.05]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: As a matter of fact, I had managed to get a piano, an upright piano, because I know when we were down in Tampa, Florida, when he was—after he left OCS, they posted him at—I think it was either Drew or MacDill Field in Tampa. And that's where I did pull a rope. I wrote to, well, my aunt, who, by marriage, was—her husband was a general. And I just pulled all the strings I could, because it was silly that Zog should be at Drew Field when he was so talented as a photographer.
And so I think—so he was transferred out to Astoria, where they were making films. And he was, if I'm not mistaken, even when he was a Second Lieutenant, he was the head of the [still photograph division –Ed.]. And they were—of course, there were famous names working out there. I know Charles Adams once, of the New Yorker fame, passed one of the darkroom assistants or something, one of the photographers. And he said, "How is the darkroom? Pretty spooky?" [Garnett laughs.]
[00:19:54.54]
Zog volunteered for 90 days overseas duty. And he and his fellow officers were called "the 90-day wonders," because he was—[laughs] as soon as General MacArthur could get his hands on anyone—So Zog, he landed, on the Leyte beachhead, on an empty—empty gasoline tin, armed with a revolver and a Rolleiflex.
[00:21:03.33]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah. So he's right there with MacArthur?
[00:21:08.01]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Don't you remember MacArthur?
[00:21:10.02]
GARNETT MCCOY: Wading ashore.
[00:21:12.18]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: When he came back. That General Douglas MacArthur was, granted, a very brilliant man. He was also incredibly vain.
[00:21:25.85]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yes
[00:21:26.87]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: And arrogant. However, he had been in charge of—as a matter of fact, one of my uncles—I think, he was ADC for one of my uncles at one time, eons ago. But when the Philippines were invaded by the Japanese, Douglas MacArthur, with his wife, child, and nurse, escaped in a submarine, leaving General Jonathan Wainwright and the rest of the men. Let's see, they retreated at that time, didn't they?
[00:22:22.71]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yes. And then to the island fortress of Corregidor.
[00:22:27.78]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Right. Right. Right.
[00:22:30.00]
GARNETT MCCOY: And then he got off on a submarine and said, "I shall return."
[00:22:34.35]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. All nice and cozy in his—he was not—he was not a soldier's general.
[00:22:44.63]
GARNETT MCCOY: No, no. He was known as "Dugout Doug."
[00:22:49.34]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: [Laughs.] I never heard that.
[00:22:50.24]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, you didn't?
[00:22:50.88]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: That's lovely. No, Zog took some really magnificent photographs, which, of course, he couldn't get credit for, because he was simply a member of the Signal Corps.
[00:23:03.14]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah.
[00:23:04.70]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: But when the—he also said—I don't know if this has any bearing on the subject. I simply wanted to say that he did say that every soldier who was involved in an invasion, an island hop, lost at least 10 to 15 pounds.
[00:23:32.70]
GARNETT MCCOY: I'm not surprised.
[00:23:39.05]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: The Death March, of course, was—
[00:23:41.57]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yeah, yes.
[00:23:43.04]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: And then he interviewed the captives.
[00:23:46.34]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, he did?
[00:23:46.82]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Captured—I mean the Americans who had been captured.
[00:23:49.53]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah.
[00:23:51.08]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: And every one of them had been beaten, tortured, and starved.
[00:23:57.05]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah.
[00:23:59.68]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: All they got is name, rank, and serial number.
[00:24:04.13]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah. Was it shortly after the war that Zogbaum took up sculpture?
[00:24:10.61]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: No. He—I thought he would like to have a piano. So I got hold of a piano that came from Snedens Landing, which was the piano on which Noel Coward had composed "Bittersweet" on.
[00:24:30.95]
GARNETT MCCOY: Is that right? How nice.
[00:24:34.82]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Because in Tampa, there was a piano there. And Zog would, very carefully and slowly, start into some Bach but very slowly. Because he had respect for the instrument he was using. And he did it very slowly, and gradually got up to spec. But he was so angry that I had gotten this piano, so either the piano goes, or I go.
[00:25:05.06]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, why was that?
[00:25:06.32]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Because he wanted to get—he had dreamed of getting back into photography.
[00:25:10.31]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:25:12.94]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: So the piano went.
[00:25:14.98]
GARNETT MCCOY: He thought you were pushing him into music?
[00:25:16.96]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah.
[00:25:21.33]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:25:22.08]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: And he wasn't having it.
[00:25:25.23]
GARNETT MCCOY: Then when did he take up sculpture?
[00:25:31.41]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Well, I would say in the '50s. Do you have a copy of The Artist's World?
[00:25:47.90]
GARNETT MCCOY: I don't believe we do.
[Recorder stops; restarts.]
[00:26:03.24]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: I was remembering, last night, the days out in East Hampton, when Ruthie and I were out there, and then we used to go out on the weekends.
[00:26:24.49]
GARNETT MCCOY: This was in the 1950s?
[00:26:27.09]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. 1950, I was on the editorial staff of Harper's Bazaar. And on Friday, Mr. Hearst would never permit his—any of his editorial staff to leave, to catch the Cannonball. So my aunt would come in with Rufus. I had my bag packed. And he and I would go out to East Hampton every weekend. And Zog, I believe, resented us very much coming out, because it meant interrupting his work. Also—
[00:27:25.08]
GARNETT MCCOY: He would be out during the week?
[00:27:27.48]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah.
[00:27:29.07]
GARNETT MCCOY: Painting.
[00:27:31.81]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Among other things. Now, here it says—
[00:27:40.49]
GARNETT MCCOY: Was he having exhibitions at that time?
[00:27:53.23]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Well, not during the—wait. No, wait a minute, he did have. He relied a great deal on my judgment of people. And a branch of the Iolas Gallery had an exhibition—always considering having an exhibition of his work.
[00:28:23.14]
GARNETT MCCOY: What gallery?
[00:28:24.79]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: The Iolas—
[00:28:25.96]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yes.
[00:28:27.79]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: —Gallery.
[00:28:28.21]
GARNETT MCCOY: I-O-A—
[00:28:29.38]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: J [sic].
[00:28:30.52]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, J?
[00:28:31.57]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah, I believe. And this is for painting. And I believe it was on the same street as the St. Regis. It was down a few blocks. It was upstairs. And I may be completely off, because I transposed, in memory, my sense of color. I can transpose it. So I may be totally wrong in thinking that the walls were covered, with a sort of a rust, pinkish-rusty velvet. And the works looked fabulous against that. They were absolutely marvelous.
[00:29:18.82]
GARNETT MCCOY: When did he have a show there?
[00:29:21.34]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, that we would have to look up. I don't know.
[00:29:23.80]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see. Yeah.
[00:29:24.61]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: But I know that it would be in the '50s, because I was on Harper's. I was on the Bazaar. It's blinking.
[00:29:35.17]
GARNETT MCCOY: Well, it's still going. I'll watch it.
[00:29:38.92]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: But I know that he asked me to have luncheon with the man who was the head of this gallery. Because he wanted to—he wanted my opinion of him.
[00:30:05.16]
GARNETT MCCOY: And your opinion?
[00:30:07.16]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: I thought he was all right. I didn't think he was an inspired or inspiring man. Iolas, himself, was, if you close your eyes and didn't look at the picture and just listened to him, you'd think he was selling his client "The Last Supper." But this particular man, who ran—it was a branch of the Iolas Gallery. And he was all right. And the pictures looked—they really looked quite marvelous against those walls.
[00:30:56.72]
GARNETT MCCOY: Did he sell any?
[00:31:00.28]
ELIZABETH ZOGBAUM: I don't believe so.
END OF TRACK AAA_zogbau81_7937_m]
[00:00:05.69]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: [In progress]—known people who became—later became very famous in the art world.
[00:00:17.33]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah, you were part of the whole picture.
[00:00:19.61]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes, but my own background was photography. But I mean, I knew the—I was the sole executrix of the estate of Franz Kline from 1962 until something like '76. when I suddenly realized that if I would die—if I were to die as executrix, my son Rufus would not get any clients except the ones which I own personally. And so I decided to physically divide the paintings. And they are mine outright. So that was the reason, as I say, that I dissolved. It was for my son.
[00:01:15.88]
GARNETT MCCOY: Well, that's practical.
[00:01:18.82]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah.
[00:01:19.12]
GARNETT MCCOY: How did you meet Franz Kline? Out in East Hampton?
[00:01:22.21]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I met him out at East Hampton. Mercedes Matter had left some—she'd spent the summer there. And she had left a number of things in the big house that she had on Georgica Pond. And she wanted to able-bodied men to help her bring them back to New York. So she asked two budding—two promising young artists, and one was Bill de Kooning, and the other one was Franz Kline. And I believe they were both in their early 40s.
[00:02:16.73]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:02:18.92]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And she brought him over for drinks that afternoon. I do not remember—but this doesn't have anything to do with East Hampton.
[00:02:32.21]
GARNETT MCCOY: Well, that's all right.
[00:02:32.94]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Something do with [inaudible] But—
[00:02:42.62]
GARNETT MCCOY: Had you met de Kooning before that?
[00:02:47.65]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I'd seen some of his work, but it was that very early work, which is black on white. But I didn't even remember Bill being even there. But I remember what—Franz was slightly tight. And he was kidding a friend of mine about moving to the country so that she could have a rock garden. Franz and Reginald Marsh both detested the country.
[00:03:25.46]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, they did?
[00:03:26.74]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Absolutely detested it. And he was wearing a—I remember exactly what he was wearing, where he sat, how he looked, what he was saying. But I don't remember anything—I don't remember Bill being even there. So I finally got so annoyed, I went out—I went out the kitchen and started doing dishes or something like that. But Franz told me afterwards that he thought—when he was brought over there that he thought that Zog had everything that any artist would want. He had a beautiful studio, a faithful and devoted wife, and marvelous—the whole set up, he thought, was just—he envied Zog so much having this. But he didn't know that Zog didn't want it.
[00:04:45.26]
GARNETT MCCOY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What an irony.
[00:04:46.34]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah. But in—out in Springs, which is outside of East Hampton, it was—we had bought—did I mention how we acquired the property there?
[00:05:17.35]
GARNETT MCCOY: No.
[00:05:19.47]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: We went out with Rufus in that bathinette. Or not bathinette, but you know those things you put children in.
[00:05:28.57]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yeah. Sure.
[00:05:30.87]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And they were living in their old house.
[00:05:40.46]
GARNETT MCCOY: Who was?
[00:05:41.78]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: The Pollocks.
[00:05:42.50]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, the Pollocks, yes.
[00:05:45.96]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And Lee said that there was one piece of property that was still cheap and that we could buy. So that's precisely what we did. We did buy it, but basically only as a place for the summer.
[00:06:10.89]
GARNETT MCCOY: Things were still inexpensive then, I suppose.
[00:06:13.73]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, yes. Well, when you think of the dollar being devaluated twice. Very great difference.
[00:06:29.58]
GARNETT MCCOY: Certainly.
[00:06:32.31]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Giorgio Cavallon came out and helped work on the house, helped Zog. And of course, Zog was superb at his work. And so then we decided that we would simply stay out there the whole time.
[00:06:58.77]
GARNETT MCCOY: You don't remember the year, do you?
[00:07:02.64]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: That's why I was—I can tell you, TIME magazine came out with a statement to the effect that Jackson Pollock was the greatest living—I think he said American artist. And LIFE magazine, I think Mr. Luce was away at that time. And this could all be researched out. It would be a cinch. Because I heard that Mr. Luce was furious when he came back and found that they had done three double-page spreads—lead spreads in color on Jackson Pollock. But that was the—signed Jackson's death sentence.
[00:08:15.85]
GARNETT MCCOY: Success?
[00:08:18.94]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes, he told me one time, Lee was just in ecstasy. Now, I'm on very good terms with Lee. She is at her best when she is fighting. A terrific fighter. She hasn't played dirty pool, but she's a very—well, I guess, having been involved with George L.K Morris a bit, that sort of thing. Somehow, she has that quality of being—fighting intelligently and usually winning. But unfortunately, she is also the type who does not fare well with successes. Yeah, I'm on very good terms with Lee. I've known her for so many years. She can't try to upstage me.
[00:09:22.33]
GARNETT MCCOY: But the LIFE article really put them on the map.
[00:09:25.27]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. I know that Jackson said to me once that he—he'd gone to so many parties and hadn't held a paintbrush for so long, he didn't even feel like a painter anymore. But Lee was in her element and perfectly—well, it's a type that fares well when things are going badly, but fares ill when meeting success. It's a very difficult thing to—
[00:10:13.21]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, terribly.
[00:10:15.10]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: —achieve. And she was just enchanted with his fame.
[00:10:22.20]
GARNETT MCCOY: And that was about the time you moved out there?
[00:10:31.37]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah, we didn't move. I was still out there. Now do the names—does the name Alfonso Ossorio mean anything to you?
[00:10:43.34]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, yes.
[00:10:45.44]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And Ted Dragon?
[00:10:47.21]
GARNETT MCCOY: Now, that one, I don't know.
[00:10:54.65]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Well, if we can go on at another time—
[00:10:58.43]
GARNETT MCCOY: Sure.
[00:11:00.56]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: —Ted Dragon, when he—he was a known ballet dancer, and he was a dear. But Alfonso, in the beginning, we would never dream of inviting Alfonso without inviting Ted. But the situation started to get strained, and it got so that Alfonso was appearing without Ted. And Ted had told the Pollocks, and told a number of people who—the situation which for him was almost—was intolerable. I mean, he did the beds, did the chores. In other words, he was a menial, virtually.
[00:11:47.12]
East Hampton doesn't close up as completely as South Hampton does. But there's still a great many houses on the dunes out at Peck Beach. I mean, the late Mr. Juan Trippe, loads of people, and things kept disappearing. And really very, very valuable. Not just low stuff. And whoever took them really had a good eye—had a cultivated eye. And he knew the difference between Aubusson carpet and something else. And he was taking a chandelier out of the home—boarded up home of—I forgotten which. It may have been the Juan Trippes. I don't know. It could've been one of those houses. And the police caught him there. Now, as he was removing this enormous crystal chandelier—
[00:13:31.96]
GARNETT MCCOY: Caught with the goods?
[00:13:33.16]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. And Alfonso—we've been really quite on very good terms with Franz. And Alfonso is screamingly funny if you can ever get beyond that facade that he puts on. He's terrifically funny. He's really a nice guy. But to me, we do not get that image. But Ted did not sell these, and he didn't steal them to sell. It was because he wanted to show that he [inaudible]. I guess he would show them to Alfonso and say they came from some friends of his family. In other words, he was trying to establish his own identity.
[00:14:40.39]
GARNETT MCCOY: Contribute to the household.
[00:14:42.82]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah. So most of them were hidden in small houses scattered around the place. But as he had not sold—
[00:14:54.79]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, I see.
[00:14:55.93]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: —everything was returned to their owners. And his taste was so good that it began to be something of an insult if your house had never been burgled by Ted—I mean, Ted Dragon, because he did choose only the best.
[00:15:21.67]
GARNETT MCCOY: [Laughs.] A real connoisseur.
[00:15:22.93]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes, and the people—obviously, the people whose homes he didn't rob didn't have anything that was worth robbing.
[00:15:37.21]
GARNETT MCCOY: [Laughs.] Well, was he prosecuted?
[00:15:42.19]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Well, the case came up, but he was, I think, released under the care of Alfonso, and with the understanding that he would go to a psychiatrist. And really, everyone's sympathies were for him and not so much for Alfonso.
[00:16:11.54]
GARNETT MCCOY: He was sort of regarded as a charming rascal?
[00:16:15.17]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Well, nobody thought he was a rascal.
[00:16:16.63]
GARNETT MCCOY: No? Oh, I see.
[00:16:18.71]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Because the reason he did it was not—it was a form of trying to establish his own prestige.
[00:16:31.56]
GARNETT MCCOY: I see.
[00:16:33.26]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Well, he didn't do it for—
[00:16:36.17]
GARNETT MCCOY: For gain.
[00:16:37.13]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: No. He did it—well, he did it for gain in a sense of prestige, but not for monetary gain at all. So then it turned out the psychiatrist was, I think, almost blackmailing Alfonso for some of his Klines—or no, some of his Pollocks. And that ended in a catastrophe. So there's still—I guess Ted is still living out there. I haven't been out there or seen him. Well, I went out to see Penny. She's now Penny Bradford. She was Penny Potter. And I go out in Amagansett —I've sort of lost touch with Barbara Hale, who lives—has a place on Fireplace Road, which is kitty-corner to, I believe, Pollock's old place.
[00:17:50.48]
GARNETT MCCOY: There's a story about Clyfford Still going out to Ossorio's house and walking off with one of his paintings. Do you know about that?
[00:17:59.30]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I heard it from Lee. Yes, a story that I got from Lee was—I would imagine this would be a fairly authentic story because Lee is not—she wouldn't contrive a story like that. It was too bizarre. [Laughs.] Alfonso was upstairs, but he heard some people downstairs, and it was Mr.—it was Mrs. Still and their daughter. And the summer before, he had loaned Clyfford Still one of the houses to spend the summer. And in return, Clyfford Still had given him a painting. And then we got a message from Clyfford Still. He lives out in California at someplace.
[00:19:18.85]
GARNETT MCCOY: Well, he's dead now. He died a couple of years ago. He was living in Maryland.
[00:19:31.43]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Bill de Kooning said he was—he reminded him of an awfully sour man. But to get back to this episode with Alfonso Ossorio, he said, "How's Clyfford?" At that moment, Clyfford came out of the sunken living room, carrying something under his arm. And they had a cab waiting. And Alfonso was bewildered by the whole thing. And then I forgotten whether—it was either Mrs. Still—I think it was Mrs. Still who said, "Don't be concerned—he's got another one exactly like it."
[00:20:32.85]
So when he went into his sunken black dining room, almost everything around there is black, including the floor of the dining room. If you drop your black napkin on the black floor, it sometimes hard to receive—I mean, retrieve. But he went down. And what Still had done was—this is what I heard—was that he had cut—he hadn't cut the complete canvas. He had cut the middle of it. Alfonso had received a letter from him saying that he wanted that painting for an exhibition.
[00:21:26.80]
And Alfonso—as it was a thickly painted painting, he—I think either he wrote a cable or something. This is before they arrived. And he said—he either wrote—or somehow contacted him, asking how he wanted it crated. And he had every intention of sending it—of doing what Clyfford Still wanted. But Clyfford Still, I guess, was a—didn't wait for the muse to be returned. He simply went there. And it was like a vandalizing.
[00:22:16.82]
GARNETT MCCOY: I wonder why he cut it out—cut part of the picture out?
[00:22:21.77]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I don't know.
[00:22:22.94]
GARNETT MCCOY: Strange.
[00:22:25.16]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Well, I mean, you would have thought. I mean, I can understand his not taking it out of the frame, but you would have thought that he would at least have cut it or—
[00:22:36.23]
GARNETT MCCOY: Take the whole thing.
[00:22:36.91]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: —yeah, cut the whole thing and then have it relined, or that sort of thing, but he didn't.
[00:22:43.19]
GARNETT MCCOY: And what did he say to Ossorio?
[00:22:45.66]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: [Inaudible].
[00:22:47.40]
GARNETT MCCOY: [Laughs.] He just walked out.
[00:22:52.29]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: And Mrs. Still put her head in the door and said, "Don't worry, Clyfford has another one exactly like it."
[00:23:03.16]
GARNETT MCCOY: I wonder what was that supposed to mean?
[00:23:04.87]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I don't know. Most peculiar.
[00:23:10.24]
GARNETT MCCOY: And he never got it back?
[00:23:13.42]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: You mean the piece of—
[00:23:14.83]
GARNETT MCCOY: I mean, Ossorio never got anything back again.
[00:23:17.51]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Oh, no, of course not. Bill de Kooning said he was like a latter-day John Brown. Yes, sort of an American fanatic.
[00:23:29.24]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah, fanatic.
[00:23:30.19]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah, which I think was pretty—
[00:23:32.71]
GARNETT MCCOY: Probably so.
[00:23:33.64]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: —an apt remark.
[00:23:37.12]
GARNETT MCCOY: Irascible sort of man.
[00:23:38.60]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes. I met him only once at Alfonso's, and took a dim view of him, because he was—he made no effort to be even almost—even the most common civilities, he couldn't be bothered with that. I suppose he thought he was above it, or something. I don't know. I have never liked his work.
[00:24:21.96]
GARNETT MCCOY: I never have either.
[00:24:24.51]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: You haven't? Isn't that nice? Because Franz kept saying, "But he's a painter!" I said, "I don't care whether he's a painter or not. He's still—his work reminds me of a—the hide of a pinto pony."
[00:24:43.18]
GARNETT MCCOY: [Laughs.] But I imagine that Clyde admired his work.
[00:24:47.05]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes, of course. In fact, I don't remember Franz ever—now, we could track down somewhere—and I don't know where it is, whether it was in a magazine. It was about Barney Newman. And the gist of it—am I wandering?
[00:25:13.87]
GARNETT MCCOY: No, that's all right.
[00:25:18.38]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Somebody came into the Cedar Tavern—the old—the original one, and said, "No, absolutely nothing—every single thing the same." And Franz said, "Are they all the same color?" And the man said no. And Franz said—but he said there was no difference. And Franz said, "Were the stripes horizontal or vertical?" And the man tried to think. Couldn't exactly remember. And Franz said, "Was the paint applied—the stripe applied before or after the background paint?" And the man had no answer to that. And Franz said, well—shook his head and said, "It sounds pretty complicated to me." I think that Franz Kline was one of the few artists whom people, generally speaking, just—they all loved him.
[00:26:56.65]
GARNETT MCCOY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Did you ever know David Smith?
[00:26:59.81]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: You mean the sculptor?
[00:27:00.86]
GARNETT MCCOY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. He wasn't part of that East Hampton group.
[00:27:06.44]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: No, Zog and Marta—you know who Marta is?
[00:27:13.47]
GARNETT MCCOY: That was his second wife?
[00:27:14.74]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes.
[00:27:17.12]
GARNETT MCCOY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I don't know her, but—
[00:27:19.49]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Have you ever seen her?
[00:27:20.50]
GARNETT MCCOY: No. But they must have known him through the sculpture interests. David Smith, I mean.
[00:27:36.99]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah, they did. I think they went up to Bolton's Landing on several occasions. I liked David Smith a great deal, but he never recognized me. He never would say—so I complained to him one time that he never recognized me, and I thought that was sort of mean. And he said, well, give me a kick in the shins if I don't recognize you as you're by. But he was a darling. And his work at Bolton's Landing must have looked magnificent.
[00:28:24.67]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, it did. What a sight.
[00:28:29.97]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: It was. Did you see it after it was painted?
[00:28:35.68]
GARNETT MCCOY: Well, some of it was painted. He had these fields, and he'd have the larger pieces of sculpture sort of planted in the field. It was really quite a spectacle.
[00:28:47.58]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah, that's what I've—
[00:28:49.65]
GARNETT MCCOY: Yeah, some of it was—a lot of it was stainless steel, and some of it was sort of rusting, and some of it was painted white, and brown, and things like that—blue.
[00:29:05.07]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Was just after he died?
[00:29:06.76]
GARNETT MCCOY: This was shortly after he died, just about a month or two. It was before one of the pieces was repainted.
[00:29:18.22]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: In other words, before Clem—
[00:29:21.10]
GARNETT MCCOY: It was before Greenberg had made any alterations. There was just a month—about two months after Smith died. And it was quite an impressive sight.
[00:29:36.82]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: I imagine it would be. I remember in Paris one time at the Musée Rodin, it was a piece of sculpture done by my former late husband, Wilfrid Zogbaum. And it was in the woods that are around [inaudible], and it looked marvelous.
[00:30:12.43]
GARNETT MCCOY: I imagine it did.
[00:30:15.45]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Somehow, sculpture on rather a large scale looks somewhat better outside.
[00:30:21.67]
GARNETT MCCOY: Oh, much better.
[00:30:23.71]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yeah. It's a pity they don't have any place where they can really—
[00:30:29.86]
GARNETT MCCOY: It is, yeah. Well, at the Hirshhorn, they have that sculpture garden, but it's not the same thing somehow. It's a little contrived.
[00:30:40.97]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. No, it was done in Paris and it was just—
[00:30:43.69]
GARNETT MCCOY: You need trees and shrubbery around.
[00:30:50.26]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Yes.
[00:30:50.44]
GARNETT MCCOY: Well, think that's the end of this tape, Betsy. And I think we've done a lot. And the next time I come up, we should pick up again and carry on. Would that be all right?
[00:31:06.61]
ELISABETH ZOGBAUM: Fine.
[00:31:07.12]
GARNETT MCCOY: Good.
END OF TRACK AAA_zogbau81_7938_m]
[END OF INTERVIEW.]
