Lehman, Carlton, 1911-
Painter, Arts administrator
Size: 28 Pages, Transcript
Format: Originally recorded on 1 sound tape reel. Reformatted in 2010 as 1 digital wav files. Duration is 48 min.
Summary: An interview of Carlton Lehman conducted 1964 Dec. 17, by Mary McChesney, for the Archives of American Art.
Carlton Lehman (b. 1911) was a mural painter and arts administrator with the Federal Art Project in Sacramento, Calif.
Conducted as part of the Archives of American Art's New Deal and the Arts project, which includes over 400 interviews of artists, administrators, historians, and others involved with the federal government's art programs and the activities of the Farm Security Administration in the 1930s and early 1940s.
English .
The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Carlton Lehman on December 17, 1964. The interview took place in San Francisco, California, and was conducted by Mary Fuller McChesney for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. This interview is part of the Archives of American Art's New Deal and the Arts project.
The original transcript was edited. In 2022 the Archives retranscribed the original audio and attempted to create a verbatim transcript. This transcript has been lightly edited for readability by the Archives of American Art. The reader should bear in mind that they are reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: This is Mary McChesney interviewing Carlton Lehman, spelled C-A-R-L-T-O-N, capital L-E-H-M-A-N who lives at 1355 Taylor Street in San Francisco California. And the date is December 17, 1964. First I'd like to ask you, where were you born?
CARLTON LEHMAN: I was born in Visalia, California.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: What year was that?
CARLTON LEHMAN: 1911.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: And where did you receive your art training?
CARLTON LEHMAN: At the University of California.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: That's in Berkeley?
CARLTON LEHMAN: In Berkeley, yes. And also I did some graduate work at Harvard.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. How did you first make any contact with any of the government-sponsored art projects?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I didn't actually make contact. I was a teaching assistant at the—in the art department at the University of California and there happened to be the opening in Sacramento, Sacramento Arts Center. And I was—had finished two years of teaching and I didn't really want to go on with teaching, so I was offered the job of running the arts center in Sacramento and I took it.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: What year was that?
CARLTON LEHMAN: That was in 19—the end of '39 and '40.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. You went on, then, as an employee of the government or as a non-relief employee? Or what was your status?
CARLTON LEHMAN: You mean in the WPA Art Project?
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Yes.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, I was an assistant state supervisor along with—under Joe Allen.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Which meant that you didn't have to have a relief qualification.
CARLTON LEHMAN: No.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: No. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, no.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: What were you paid? Do you remember?
CARLTON LEHMAN: [$]175 I think it was.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Was that more or less than you were making at the University?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, it was more, actually, because I was only a teaching assistant. And—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, I see.
CARLTON LEHMAN: —so, you know, I didn't have the status of professor. But even so, [$]175 was quite good in those days.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Yes, mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: So then you left Berkeley and went to Sacramento?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, and ran the arts center—I think I was there about a year and a half. It was a rather interesting experience.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Who contacted you about the position? Was it Joe Allen himself?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, I think it came through a Beckford Young who had been at the university with me, and we had been in several classes together and he was a good friend of some of the professors I worked under. So it sort of was a grapevine process of getting around—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: —you see.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: He had been a director of the art center of Sacramento himself?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, he'd been there himself, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. So then you took over after he—?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Right after he left, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: You said it was an interesting experience, what was it like?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, it was interesting because Sacramento at that time was, shall we say, highly uncultural. [Laughs.] And it was really a battle trying to get any interest in the arts at all there. Now it is quite different. They've become very cultural. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: So maybe perhaps we put a germ in somewhere. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: I think probably you did, actually.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yeah. We had—actually, we found that the most interesting projects—or the projects that interest the public most, were more on the craft line. Such things as pottery, bookbinding, and flower arranging was extremely popular. But other than that, painting was—there was almost no reaction to that at all.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Who was on your staff when you went up there?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I had—the secretary was Irene Seaber.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: How do you spell her name?
CARLTON LEHMAN: S-E-A-B-E-R.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: And I don't know that I can remember—we had a very good gal teaching bookbinding. Really very competent. Can't remember the name. And our flower arranger was Lloyd Wasmuth, who was a very peculiar and interesting fellow.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Wasmuth? W-A—
CARLTON LEHMAN: S-M-U-T-H.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: He was very clever. And I understand that he has since gone to Hawaii, and I think is teaching at the University of Hawaii.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, good heavens. In art or flower arranging?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I imagine in the craft level somewhere.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Though he was quite a good watercolorist. And, well, we didn't have a very large staff, you see, it was a small place. I suppose someone has already described the location of it.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: No, not at that time. Where was it then?
CARLTON LEHMAN: It was on the corner of 15th and H, and it was an old Victorian mansion. Really quite a beautiful one. And we decided to sort of jazz it up and instead of painting it in the classical manner, we did it all in hot pinks and purples and blues.
[00:05:11]
[Laughs]. It was kind of wild, but at the same time, you felt that something had to be done to kind of jazz things up in Sacramento. There was so much lethargy there [laughs], you know. So we did that. And actually it was quite fun, but there just—it got to the point where the staff—we got no support from the public really and the staff just began to get more and more sort of bored.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: And they all sort of drifted away. And there was such a turnover in the staff and so on that finally we decided that there wasn't enough interest there to keep the place open. So we closed it and then I was brought up as supervisor to the San Francisco office.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Who were the painting instructors and the art instructors at Sacramento?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I was the principal painting instructor, then we only had—well, Mr. Wasmuth taught a class in watercolor. I'm not—wasn't interested in watercolor myself, but I sort of taught beginning art and techniques. That was more or less my background anyhow. I'd studied—that's what I studied at Harvard, was the history of techniques as well as the history of art. So I taught an advanced painting class and then this beginning class, and then he had a special class in watercolor and that's actually all the painting courses we had. We had one small class in sculpture.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Who was teaching that?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I'm trying to think. It was a wild little fellow.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: A local Sacramento person?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No. He'd come from New York originally.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Slivka?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, not—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: David Slivka?
CARLTON LEHMAN: David Slivka was up here. Yeah.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: No this—he was just a youngster really and only starting out himself. But
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: You had a program of having people come up—artists come up from the Bay Area to lecture and demonstrate, didn't you?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. That we did.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Who were some of the people who same up when you were the head of the art center?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, Beckford Young used to come back and lecture occasionally because he knew the people and they knew him and liked him, so they would always turn up for his lectures. And I can't remember anybody else specifically.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Did you have a regular program with visitors to come up to the center from the Bay Area?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well not really. It was flexible. Whenever they had somebody who wanted to lecture or who they thought—whom they thought would interest Sacramento people then they'd just arrange them. It was very informal.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Did you do that arranging? Was that part of your job as the supervisor or was that done—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Partly. Partly, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: You did part of it? Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: We did it in conjunction with the San Francisco office.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: What were your main responsibilities as supervisor? Did you have charge of the—you had charge of the staff of course, and setting up the program for the arts center?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Did you have any financial responsibilities then?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, yes. In the sense of trying to raise money. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh that was part of your job too?
CARLTON LEHMAN: That was part of my job, yes. And as a consequence I had to lecture quite frequently at schools and women's clubs and I gave a program of talks on art history at the Crocker Museum and tried to maintain a relationship between the Crocker Museum and the art center, because they tended to dislike us, thought we were interlopers. But we finally got along very well.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: But it was quite a problem raising money at that time. People didn't have very much to spare. So it was a rough go, as they say.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Yeah. The government though did pay part of the cost of the Art Center, but the—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —the cities then have to raise a certain amount of money?
CARLTON LEHMAN: You're supposed to have, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Actually, it was supposed to have been balanced, but it never was.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, you mean half and—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Half and half, yeah.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: But it never was.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Yeah. What was the enrollment when you were there as director?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I don't suppose there was ever more than 50. You know, on special things it might go up to 75. But that was not very much out of a city the size of Sacramento.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: No it isn't.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yeah.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Were there many artists living in Sacramento at that time?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Not very many, no. Most of them had drifted up to—you say up to San Francisco?
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I say up [inaudible]. [They laugh].
I'm sure they say down—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yeah.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —in San Francisco. Do you remember any interesting stories about that time? People who came up to visit or—
[00:10:00]
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, all I remember [laughs]—the really one thing that happened was—and I forget what it was exactly—but there was some piece of sculpture that we had shown that was considered very obscene and we were called on the carpet by the powers that be [laughs] in Sacramento and were told that we had to remove that. But other than that, I don't remember any particular exciting incident.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Who were the powers that be? The mayor or somebody like that?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, no, it was a big thing, a committee, you might say, who organized themselves. In other words, they were considered the friends of the arts center.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, I see, the citizens committee probably.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Citizens committee, yeah.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative], that was helping you to raise money, I suppose—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —and help sponsor the—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: And they were the ones who objected—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, they—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —to your sculpture?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, they were afraid that we might offend.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Do you remember whose work it was?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I think it was our instructor's.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, yeah. [They laugh.] It was the young instructor?
CARLTON LEHMAN: [Inaudible. ] [They laugh.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Did you do any mural projects when you were up there in Sacramento?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, didn't do a thing. As a matter of fact, I didn't have a chance to. We didn't have—beside from myself, we didn't have any mural painters. And there weren't really, at that time, there weren't any opportunities for it.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: You had a gallery there at the arts center, didn't you?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: And you showed—what kind of work did you show?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, we would have traveling shows that they'd send out from San Francisco. And then we'd have shows of the staff.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Other people that were working there?
CARLTON LEHMAN: People working there.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Did you have student shows as well?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, no. I'm afraid we didn't have any students that were [laughs] capable of showing.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: To put it kindly. [Laughs.] They weren't very good.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: The traveling shows that were organized in San Francisco, were they organized through the WPA?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: And they were WPA artists?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Definitely.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Do you remember any of those shows that were particularly outstanding?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Or were they usually group shows?
CARLTON LEHMAN: They were usually group shows. I mean, there would be people like Kadish and George Harris, and the staff up here and—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: But mostly group shows. I don't remember having any one-man shows at all.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Was there any program there placing work into the schools or into the public buildings in Sacramento?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, yes, we tried to do that. In fact, we did do it. We would lend them to almost anybody who asked for them. And that was fine because it didn't cost them anything and they enjoyed having them. So that part of the program—
[Cross talk.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: But there wasn't a—
CARLTON LEHMAN: —was all right.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: It was? Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Why had Beckford Young left?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well he was transferred up here.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh.
CARLTON LEHMAN: He didn't leave, you know, as a thing, he just—he'd been down there for two years and he felt he needed to change and so he came back up here. And then I came back up a year and a half later.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Why do you think it was so difficult in cities like Sacramento to arouse any enthusiasm for the arts center?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, it's hard—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: The reason I ask is that, you know, it's the only one that was ever established in Northern California. They tried other places and they never worked apparently in California. You know, I've talked to people from Oregon and in Oregon, they were tremendously successful.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Much better in Oregon, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: And I don't know why either. There just seemed to be a kind of apathy that was extremely hard to overcome. [Laughs.] That's all I can say.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: I was wondering if it might have been because San Francisco was closer and more available and they felt they didn't need it there.
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, I don't think so particularly. They weren't even giving very much support to the Crocker Museum, which was an old established museum. They had to fight very hard to maintain themselves. That's why they resented our coming in. [Laughs.] Trying to take what little gravy they might have gotten, you know. But I—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: They didn't have a program that was similar to the art center, though, did they?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, no, no. As a matter of fact, we'd finally got—cooperated with them and established lectures and classes at the museum so that there wouldn't be any friction between us. And we finally worked it out very well.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Was there any competition between the art center and the adult education program for teaching art? Or was that in existence then?
CARLTON LEHMAN: As far as I know, I don't think it was.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Because we had several teachers who would come down for certain specific classes. So I don't think there was an art program, but I could be wrong. It's been—24 years ago.
[00:15:02]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: It's quite a long time.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes [laughs].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: At the art center, did you ever have traveling shows come from the East, or were they just from [inaudible]?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, they were just from San Francisco.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. So then after a year and a half to two years in Sacramento you came down to San Francisco?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, mm-hmm [affirmative]. And here I was in charge of—oh, I think I had 20 artists to supervise. But fortunately, aside from the supervision, I was also allowed to paint murals myself, which pleased me very much because there's only a certain amount of supervision that you can do.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Were these 20 artists people who were on the easel project?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, some of them were—belonged to the group—what did they call it, that did historical reproductions?
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, the Index of American Design?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Index of American Design, I had some of those. At that time—see, I came into the program rather late. And at that time the American—they had more or less completed the American Index of Design and several people were left over who needed work to do and so I would use them in a specialized way. For example, one mural which I did for Fort Ord was 90 feet long, called Moby Dick, but it was all sea stuff, of course. And these people from the Index of American Design, I would make an outline of a drawing and then they would come along and make very realistic detail of all the things, such as coral and sea ferns and urchins and all that sort of thing. And actually the cooperation worked out very well—or collaboration.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: And I'd do the major design, you see, and then they'd fill in very realistic details. They were quite good. They were three or four elderly ladies. And—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Do you remember their names?
CARLTON LEHMAN: I wish I could.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: They weren't actually professional artists, though, or were they?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, well, not really in that sense. Of course, we had—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Or were they illustrators? I—seems—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I was trying to think.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: That's pretty specialized work, it seems.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, in a sense they were professionals. They had to be because this was more than—you know, the Index of American Design things were really quite beautiful.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Very nice.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes. And they had to be good in their specialized field in order to do that sort of work.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Now what they did before, I haven't the vaguest idea. It may have been—I know one of them did medical illustrations.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh.
CARLTON LEHMAN: So that was, in a sense, professional.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Yeah.
CARLTON LEHMAN: And what the others did, I haven't the vaguest idea. But they were good. Very good.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Of the 20 artists that you supervised, how many were working on the Index of American Design?
CARLTON LEHMAN: I think only four.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Four? And the others, who were they?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, some were mosaicists. And I had, I think, about a dozen who were strictly in easel painting. But they aren't—I don't mean to infer that all these 20 helped me on the murals. It was just I had a few like that. I think I had three or four helpers on my little project of the mural. But the rest of them I just supervised their easel painting.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: What did that consist of?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well they had to turn in a certain number of paintings each month for inspection, evaluation, and so on. Actually, we were supposed to be sort of critics, but you couldn't be that critical, at that time. So we didn't go in too much for that. But we had to see that they got a certain amount of work done and show some degree of progress. Actually, that's all we did. But—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Do you remember the names of any of those painters?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes. Merlin Hardy, who's since become very successful with his ceramics at Gump's—you know, the China tableware. Beautiful, very special stuff. It's terrible trying to remember names back over 25 years.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: What kind of a quota did you set for the painters? Did it vary from individual to individual or was it a certain definite number for everybody?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, no, it had to vary.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: I mean some of them were fast workers, would come in with 20 paintings a month. Some of them would come in with one. [Laughs.]
[00:20:05]
But, you know, that was the way they worked. And if it was a good one, that was better than 20 bad ones. You know, that sort of thing, so.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: So it was pretty flexible [inaudible]—
CARLTON LEHMAN: It was flexible, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —you weren't concerned. Were most of them working in oils or in watercolors?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, the ones I had were all in oils. I didn't have any—because I—as I say, I don't relate very much to watercolors. I don't do them myself. So I didn't feel that I was competent to handle that bit.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Where were the headquarters there where they brought the paintings in?
CARLTON LEHMAN: On Jackson Square.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, 473—
CARLTON LEHMAN: 473 Jackson, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, so that was at the very end.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yeah.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: That was the last place the Project was located—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yeah.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —in San Francisco.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And at the same time that you came down here to San Francisco from Sacramento, you began immediately doing the mural for Fort Ord, or was that later?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, that was later. I had to kind of fight for it. You see, supervisors literally weren't supposed to paint. They were just supposed to supervise.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh.
CARLTON LEHMAN: But as I say, there's only so much time you can spend supervising 20 or 30 people, and I had to have something to do, so I begged them to let me set up my mural. I did it on canvas here, you see. It wasn't a matter of working down at Fort Ord. We did everything here then took it down, put it up. But it saved my life in the sense that it kept me busy. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Where did you do the mural, at the pickle factory?
CARLTON LEHMAN: The pickle factory, the big one, the 90-foot one.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: And then I did the Generals on Horseback at 473 Jackson. That was only—oh, I think it was seven by 12 feet, or something of that sort.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: And these were both oil on canvas?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: This first one that you did, Moby Dick, you said was 90 feet long.
CARLTON LEHMAN: 90 feet long.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: How tall was it?
CARLTON LEHMAN: It was five feet tall. It was behind the bar—the soldiers' beer bar in the recreation room, which was huge. Have you ever seen that soldiers' club down there?
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: No, I haven't.
CARLTON LEHMAN: It's enormous. It's just enormous. and everything—you see, we did everything, including the light fixtures. We had special furniture made, designed by the WPA. And everything—it was such an enormous building that everything had to be special and in scale. We did huge chandeliers, like 12 feet across, out of carved wood. The theme was basically early Californian and Mexican.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: So, that's why so much carving and, so.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Who did that work, the carving of the wood? Sculptors on the Project?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Sculptors on the Project, yeah. Well, actually, no. That's not true. They designed it and did a model and then they had to be—and some other Project carved them. What that would be I don't know.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: I didn't have too much to do with that. I was charged mostly to the mural type thing.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. This 90-foot mural, did you do it all on one section [inaudible]?
CARLTON LEHMAN: All on one section, mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Must have been quite a project.
CARLTON LEHMAN: It was quite a project, quite interesting because even at the pickle factory—which was quite large—90 feet is quite a stretch, so the mural had to go around the bend three times. [Laughs.] You never did see what the whole thing really looked like at a stretch until we got it up at Fort Ord.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh [laughs].
CARLTON LEHMAN: But it was kind of a crazy mural. Just lots of fish and this great big white whale and Jonah and Ahab and stuff in it. And it was fun.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Sounds very good. I'll have to stop and see it sometime.
CARLTON LEHMAN: I hope it's still good. I don't know. I haven't seen it myself in 20 years.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Did you have any other assistants working on the mural with you? Besides these three women from the—
CARLTON LEHMAN: No.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —Index of American Design?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: So you did all the actual painting [inaudible]?
CARLTON LEHMAN: I did most of the painting myself.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Except for the detail.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: And then the second was called Generals on Horseback.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: And what was that [inaudible]?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, there were seven California generals, that is generals who were out here in California during that time. I don't know whether I can remember all of them or not. But there was of course Vallejo and Fremont and—well, I can't think of all the names right now. But it was a very interesting problem because they were all, naturally, on horseback, and when you have 28 horses' legs to deal with at the bottom area of a picture, this poses a problem [laughs]. To try to make it both the painting interesting and mean something—as painting not as 28 horses' legs.
[They laugh.]
[00:25:10]
So I decided to treat it as a Bach fugue, and I just [laughs] designed the legs in counterpoint. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh.
CARLTON LEHMAN: I like to think that it was.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Did you have any assistants working on that mural?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, no, I did that entirely—well, that I did—no, I didn't have any assistants. But that I did principally for and under the supervision of General Stilwell. It was his—he wanted it.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh.
CARLTON LEHMAN: And he had, naturally, enough power to get what he wanted. And he would come up almost every week and see how I was getting along with it.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: How long does it take you to paint a mural that size?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well this one took quite a while because I could only work on it when I wasn't busy supervising.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: I think I was on it, though, about eight or nine months.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Do you remember what year that was?
CARLTON LEHMAN: That would have been '42, I think. No, it must have been '41 because—no, '42.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: '42?
CARLTON LEHMAN: '42.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: And the Moby Dick must have been done in 1941.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yeah.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: How long did you work on that one, the Moby Dick mural?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well that took quite a while. I think we spent almost a year on that.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Who were some of the other people who did murals for that Fort Ord club?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, Merlin Hardy did one in a ladies' lounge, which is a very handsome Spanish fiesta type mural, which was quite large. It was, I think, 12 by 20 feet.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Where was your mural—Generals on Horseback—where was that placed?
CARLTON LEHMAN: That was in the lobby.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, in the lobby. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: And his was in the ladies' lounge and what was the subject of that?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Spanish fiesta. Early California fiesta.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Was that done up here in San Francisco too and then taken down?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Also oil on canvas?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Was he working at the pickle factory at the same time you were, or—
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, he did that in some other building. I can't recall just where it was. I think it was some school. We had access to quite a few schools around that were empty at the time.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: When the murals were completed, did you go down to Monterey to install them?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes, we spent quite a bit of time down there installing everything. We had to bring it all sort of together at once, you see. And choose the colors for painting the walls, things of that sort. So last month, I'd say, before its opening, we spent most of the time down there.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, I see. Who was in charge of that project?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, actually, Joe Allen. But then Beckford Young had quite a bit to do with that. And, now I don't know—can't remember just who was in charge of the sculptural part of it.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Do you remember what sculptures were done for there? Sargent Johnson I think, mentioned that he—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Sargent Johnson—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —did some, but I don't believe they were ever placed out there.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I think—yes, there were. I'm sure there were some Sargent Johnsons there.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Do you remember any other muralists who worked on that project, besides yourself and Hardy?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, it seems to me George Harris did one. I'm sure he did.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: When was that club opened? Do you remember what year that was? Was that '42?
CARLTON LEHMAN: It was '42.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What was the reception for it?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Mm, great.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Really?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. In the first place, it pleased quite a lot of people because for the first time the soldiers got a decent club instead of just barracks. And it was, of course, a far better club than many officers' clubs.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, it was? [Laughs.] That's interesting.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Beautifully placed on the point of—overlooking the ocean. These tremendous facilities. Well, it was a nice project.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Who was the architect who designed it, do you remember?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: It wasn't a WPA artist?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No. No, I know that.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: But the laborers were—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Labor was all—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —all WPA.
CARLTON LEHMAN: —WPA, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Did you do any other murals in San Francisco during this period?
[00:30:01]
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I'd—yes, but not for the WPA. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Because I did one on my own in the—oh, what's this hotel? The Zebra Room in the Huntington Hotel.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: And that I just did on my own time. But I think that's all. Because right after that I went into the Army, so.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: That was still 1942?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. The Project was still in operation though?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, yes, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Were there many people left on it at that time?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, it was, you know, getting down to a skeleton crew and the war thing started, so, actually, in the last few months, it was really just winding things up.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Who were the other supervisors who had the same kind of position you had? Were there very many of them?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I think there were only seven or eight of us all together. There was Beckford Young, George Harris, Kadish, Homer Anisley.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Homer Anisley?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: How do you spell his last name?
CARLTON LEHMAN: A-N-I-S-L-E-Y, I think. He's down here on Columbus and Broadway now.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Is he a painter now?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: So he had the same sort of position you had supervising—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, supervising—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —a certain number of artists?
CARLTON LEHMAN: —a certain number of—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Did he do any murals too?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, he's not a mural painter at all.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: As a supervisor, were you involved in any other mural projects in the Bay Area?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: No.
CARLTON LEHMAN: I don't know.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Did you have much contact with the work that was being done on the Index of American Design?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No. No, actually that was almost a separate group.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: I just—but when that was beginning to wind up, I was given the three people who helped me on the mural.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: So that was—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Do you remember who was in charge of that?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, I don't.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: No? So that about covers the activity that you took part in on the WPA.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, as much as I can remember [laughs] at this date.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Well, you were on the Project, then, for about a period of four years?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Three and a half years, actually.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Three and a half years? Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Looking back on it now, from this length of time, how would you evaluate the work that was done on the WPA?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, a lot of it was very, very good. And a lot of it was pretty messy. But there were some good things that came out of it, very good things. And I think the best thing that came out of it was that it gave these people a breathing space and something to keep their morale up, as well as body and soul together.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Did you have any contact with the work being done at Treasure Island, for the Fair?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, yes, but not as a WPA.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh. Well, how did that come about, because part of that Project—part of the fair was done by the WPA?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, I know it was. But I don't remember having anything to do with that. I was merely helping out with the Chinese show—Chinese exhibit. That is, the exhibit of Chinese art which was run by Langdon Warner of Harvard, whom I'd studied under at Harvard. And so I was sort of an assistant helping with installation.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, I see. Langdon Warner?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Langdon Warner.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: He was head of the Oriental Art Department at Harvard.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: So you helped him collect material from this area?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, partly that, but mostly just installing the exhibit at the Fair.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Was this after you were off the WPA?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, this was before.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, it was before.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Before, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, I was still at the university then—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: I see.
CARLTON LEHMAN: —in '39
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. That's right. The Fair began in '38, didn't it?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yeah.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And you left the Project in '42, so you must have been one of the last people just about—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, I was.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —on.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And shortly after that, I went in the army. And then that was that. [Laughs.]
[00:35:06]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Aside from your two murals, you yourself never did any easel painting that was turned into the Project?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, none.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do you think it might be a good idea for the government of the United States to sponsor the arts again?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, frankly, yes. But not necessarily in that way. I think it should be much more selective. But I think there's certainly a use some sponsoring. And not only in the art field, but—well, I think they're trying very hard to get a sort of national thing both in drama and the arts established. And I think it'd be very good. So, I had—it was not an unhappy experience for me to work on that Project.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: I enjoyed it.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: What were the main difficulties? Do you think the lack of selectivity was one of them?
CARLTON LEHMAN: That was one of them. But also it was necessarily bureaucratic and that always is a headache to try to work with, you know? Right—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Why necessarily?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I don't know, it seems to me that when you get into letters in quadruplicate—or, it was even more than that, I think. This—a lot of very unnecessary paperwork. And sometimes you would run across people who insist on bossing everything and getting down to the very minutest detail of paperwork and that sort of thing.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Do you think the government regulations on the Project were too stultifying?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well in practice they weren't because mostly they were ignored. But in theory they were stultifying, yes. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, as a supervisor, did you get involved yourself in a lot of this paperwork?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I had a certain amount to do, yes. I naturally had to keep track of my own people and what they did, and so on. And then we would have—the supervisors would have meetings where we'd have to have—decide on our policies. And—but I think we were kind of fortunate out here in that we had a much freer rein than they did in some of the eastern Projects. I understand we did. I don't know from experience.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Well you had to make reports on the individual artists, as a supervisor?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What were they like? Did you have to evaluate their work or what?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, yes, it was—you know, as kindly as possible.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Did you ever have to fire anybody?
CARLTON LEHMAN: We never did. It would've been too cruel. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: There really wasn't any place for them to go.
CARLTON LEHMAN: No. [They laugh.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: It's not like the age of prosperity where they can get a job.
CARLTON LEHMAN: We did have to shift them around because as our workload lessened, we'd find that we just couldn't use that many people and so they'd have to go and do things with yarn or something in some other Project. That is not exactly firing, but we did in a sense fire them from the Art Project.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Well, you didn't want to—
CARLTON LEHMAN: We replaced them, yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, I see. Why was that?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, we just—as I say, things were lessening. There were becoming more outside work and the Project was, you know, closing. And so there wasn't anything to do. But a lot of these people were quite elderly and couldn't do such things as working in the shipyards or things of that sort, so. We had—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: I was wondering how this applied to the easel painters, though, because their work would be just a natural thing if they had done painting. But were there—what I was thinking of was Washington saying to you—to the WPA here that you had to cut down on the number of people, that sort of thing? Or?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, no, actually it came about quite naturally as the jobs opened up in the war effort. Many of the painters immediately went to work in the shipyards.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: They made fabulous amounts of money. [Laughs.] They didn't get much painting done during those years, but they got very rich. [Laughs.] For them.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Yeah. So that happened quite pleasantly, actually—[Cross talk.]
CARLTON LEHMAN: Quite naturally. Yes, actually—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —as far as—
CARLTON LEHMAN: —there wasn't any disagreeable quality to it at all.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do you have any idea whatever happened to all the easel paintings that were produced in San Francisco by the WPA artists?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I understand they're stored in a warehouse somewhere, but where I haven't the vaguest idea.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. When they were turned into you, what did you do with them?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, we stored them at 473 Jackson. We had great racks of paintings.
[00:40:00]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: And they were then available to schools and—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —people to come in and select paintings?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. If they did set up a new Art Project in the United States, how do you think they could avoid some of these difficulties? You say selectivity, how would you go about selecting artists? You mean through competitions, something like that?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I think it should be at least partly competition. I think that, say for example, if you're going to help a youngster I don't think it should be just hit or miss. I think they should have to prove themselves in some way. At least have done some body of work that would give a chance at evaluation.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: And also I think it should be established as partly, perhaps—for the younger ones—a training program. Say, they would have to more or less show what they could do, say in three years. Something of that sort. And then—I don't believe just in—that'd it'd be good just to underwrite anybody that wanted to be an artist, you know, whether he was or wasn't. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Yeah. How did you feel about the way the mural commissions were allotted here in the Bay Area?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I thought it was on the whole very fair. I think in the earlier years, before I was even on the Project, a lot of things that were done which perhaps shouldn't have been done. Because they were so anxious to get started on something that they let a lot of people paint murals that shouldn't have ever looked at a wall. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: What were you thinking of?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, I'm not going to mention any——
[They laugh.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Coit Tower?
CARLTON LEHMAN: —place. [They laugh.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: I was wondering. That's a very curious and interesting building, though—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —for all that I agree with you, that it's true. I think, too, a great deal of the problem was that many of the artists had never done a mural in their lives and they were—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Never.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —suddenly offered a wall, you know—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yeah.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —and they were very excited about it. And it's not just that easy to. [Laughs.]
CARLTON LEHMAN: Not just that easy, and also they picked one of the hardest mediums to work in: fresco. And for someone who isn't trained in it, it is really a tough job.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: You weren't around then during the tremendous interest in fresco when Rivera was here?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh yes, I was around. I was at the university.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, yes. We all knew about that. In fact, we studied fresco [laughs] à la Rivera. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Who was teaching it over there? Boynton?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Boynton. He was probably the one that was most in favor of Rivera. Most of the others were more interested in Picasso. [Laughs.] But it was rather funny, I was—sort of started out backwards. Instead of being a Realist or an Impressionist or something and then moving into Abstraction, I started out as an Abstractionist, moved into Realism or as close to Realism [laughs] as I'll ever get it, which is more romantic, I guess, than anything else.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: What kind of painting was being done that you thought was interesting during the WPA period? What sort of work were the painters under you turning into you? What style of painting?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, there was—there were an awful lot of what we call maidenly flower paintings, because we had quite a number of women artists on the thing. And most of the men were principally interested in some form tending toward Abstraction or in the Rivera-type thing.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Of course, we had some—quite a number of graphic artists, like Surendorf, and George Harris turned out quite a lot of abstract graphics. It was a mixture. It was a—just as you'd find a mixture of people [laughs]—there was no—I don't think anybody ever forced or tried to force a trend toward anything.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Was there any influence of the Surrealists at that time?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Very little. Very little.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Did you have any contact with the Aquatic Park project?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Not a thing, excepting knowing the people who were working on it.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: That was being done at the same period, though?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, mm-hmm [affirmative].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do you think Hilaire Hiler had much influence on the artists in the area when he was here, doing the murals at Aquatic Park?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Oh, yes, definitely.
[00:45:00]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes, mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. In fact, I understand he was quite autocratic. [Laughs.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Did you have any contact as a supervisor, or just because you were in the WPA, with the sculpture project here in the Bay Area?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No, not [inaudible].
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Was there any interchange during that time between the Writers' Project and the Art Project?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well it seems to me there was some. Now I can't remember—but I remember we did meet occasionally with the Writing Project. It may be—I imagine it was because we put out certain numbers of brochures and things of that sort and that they wrote them.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: I see, mm-hmm [affirmative]. What would those have been for?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Brochures—
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, I think for perhaps things that went along with these traveling exhibits.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: And then I think in the sense of there was a publicity department, too, which was more closely connected with the Writing Project. And we would contact the publicity department—Bud Painter was our contact. And whatever had to be written, it would be turned over to the Writers' Project, things of that sort.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: You never collaborated on any books or anything like that with the writers, though?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, not that I—I mean I didn't. Maybe some did, but I didn't.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Was there any contact with the Musicians' Project and the Art Project?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Well, not that I had anything to do with.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. They were pretty much isolated?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Pretty much isolated, yes. Just the Theatre Project was—
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: The Theatre Project was also isolated—
CARLTON LEHMAN: —isolated.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: —from the Art Project.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Even on the supervisorial level?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yes. [They laugh.]
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: I'm not sure that's right, yeah. But you didn't meet with them even on that level?
CARLTON LEHMAN: No.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
CARLTON LEHMAN: Yeah.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Do you think the direction of the Art Project here in the Bay Area was as good as it could have been under the circumstances?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Under the circumstances, yes. Really, I do. There was always a certain amount of suspicion from the public, you know, that they were not getting all they deserved for their taxes or something or other. So it was—it's hard to put across that sort of thing.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Even in San Francisco it was hard?
CARLTON LEHMAN: Even in San Francisco it was hard. But we did get very good cooperation from the museums, things of that sort.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: I think the press was very cooperative too.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Press was very good, very good indeed. Yes. No complaints there.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Anything else or have we covered it?
CARLTON LEHMAN: I think we've just about covered it. At least all that I can remember [laughs] at this late date.
MARY FULLER MCCHESNEY: Thanks very much for giving us some time for the interview.
CARLTON LEHMAN: Thank you.
[END OF TRACK AAA_lehman64_224.]
[END OF INTERVIEW.]
Transcript is available on the Archives of American Art's website.
This interview is open for research. Contact Reference Services for more information.
Quotes and excerpts must be cited as follows: Oral history interview with Carlton Lehman, 1964 Dec. 17. Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.
