Transcript
Preface
The following oral history transcript is the result of a recorded interview with Beatrice Mandelman on July 20, 1964. The interview took place in Taos, New Mexico, and was conducted by Sylvia Glidden Loomis for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. This interview is part of the Archives of American Art's New Deal and the Arts project.
This transcript has been lightly edited for readability by the Archives of American Art. The reader should bear in mind that they are reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose. The original transcript was edited. In 2022 the Archives retranscribed the original audio and attempted to create a verbatim transcript.
Interview
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Another artist participated in the Federal Art Projects in New York is Mr. [Louis] Ribak's wife, Miss Beatrice Mandelman, who has also agreed to an interview about herself and her work on the Project. Suppose we take the same questions and start first by asking you, Miss Mandelman, where you were born and received your art education?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I was born in New Jersey—north New Jersey, and I studied at the Art Students League. And I just happened to come in at the time into New York, when all this was going on and without really knowing what it was all about, and I was very young, I got on the Project. I think I was one of first to get on the Project.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. When was that, do you remember?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I think it was in '36.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: '36.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And I got on the mural project and—I'm trying to think of his—I think was Mr. Block [ph], do you remember him?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: No, I don't.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, was his first name? He was a supervisor—he was my supervisor. And I worked for about two years on the mural project. I was given an opportunity to paint a mural in one of the hospitals myself, but I felt I wasn't really up to it, and so I got the job to be an assistant with Walter Quirt, and we did a mural in Bellevue Hospital, in the men's' psychiatric ward.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Was this a fresco?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Yes. Then—I mean, after working on the mural project—it all started by—at first, I wanted to do murals because I was terribly enamored of Orozco at that time, and Rivera, and that was kind of the climate around New York at that time, to paint murals.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes, I remember.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Even though—but in trying to get experiences, no school taught mural painting and nobody in the United States seemed to know anything about it because I really looked into it very deeply and there were no real contemporary murals in the United States at that time, and so when this whole thing started, I mean, it was very exciting that we all had a chance to try our hand at it, even though so many of the murals, I think, were just—well, they really weren't tops, but couldn't be helped. I mean, but it was one way of getting started and they painted murals all over the country, and out of it, I mean, some of the artists became—well, they became good artists. I mean, out of it grew some of the top artists in the country. And that's the only way, I mean, it could be done, you know, it's just getting in there and doing it.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes. What—was there somebody that, you know, knew enough about fresco technique, I mean, to sort of train?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Not really—not really. We're all sort of just feeling our way, I mean—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I see. I see. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: At that time people like Phil Guston were trying it. I mean since then they've become a non-objective artist, but there is a whole group working, we're all talking about, we're all experimenting with marble dust and all kinds of things. And I think it was a marvelous, marvelous opportunity, and I felt very lucky to have come in at that time.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What sort of work did you do at Art Students League? I mean, what did you specialize in?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, I mean—well, at that time I was doing—toward the end I was doing graphic work. I was doing lithographs.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Oh.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And then I got on the graphic project.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. That was after you had done this mural work?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I see. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And that was terribly, terribly exciting to me too. I did all kinds of experimental work because we had two of the best printers in the country working there and I developed a way of doing color lithography that was never done before.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And I did color woodcuts and—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Who were the printers, do you remember?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Gosh, I can't remember—
[Cross talk.]
SYLVIA LOOMIS: You can't remember.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: —the names, I'm trying to think of it.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I was just curious.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I mean, after 20 years, you know, with this whole thing—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: It's just a little hard to remember, yes, mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I mean, just all of a sudden. But—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well, it was—must have been then on the basis of the graphic work that you—that you had done that you got onto the mural project, is that right?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: No, I got on the mural project first, then I got on the graphic because I realized the mural— to do a mural of my own was—I mean, I just wasn't up to it.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: What I'm trying to establish is the—on what basis you were accepted as a mural artist?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Oh, because I was—I mean, just I showed the work I had been doing, I mean, I was terribly involved with murals and I wanted to do murals.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I see. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And I travelled all around the country looking at murals, but there was nothing to be seen. The next thing was to go to Europe, and then when this whole thing broke up—I mean, started here, I got interested in it and had this chance, so—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I see. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes well, let—
[00:05:00]
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And of course, doing murals is a real big thing. I mean, it involves a lot of money and all that privately, you can't continue it, you know?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes. What—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: So, I hit on the graphic project and—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Why didn't you continue the murals, just because there weren't any more to do?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, no, it was too—I mean, like, I didn't want to do my own mural, and this way I got a chance to do my own work. You see, I'd have to work with somebody else.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I see. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Not that I wasn't given a mural, but I just felt I wasn't up to it.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I see. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. So, then you went on—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I was only 19 years old, you know, and it was just too much.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes, I see. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, what was unique about this lithographic process—color lithographs that you talked about?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well—let me see how to explain it. You know, I just can't describe it, is a way—a way of doing it with—that—I forget what you call it even, those pencils—lithograph pencils. But anyways, I mean, I can't remember the detail right now, but one other thing I want to talk about which is very interesting, I think, was that a group of us—it was a very small group on the graphic project, and we all worked together very closely, and we developed the silk-screen process there. I was one of the original eight that started the whole thing, and then we started the Serigraph Society and this whole thing. At that time our idea was to make prints, so that everybody could afford them—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: —because it was during the time of the Depression. So, we were looking for a method of doing them so that we could sell them for five dollars and $10, so that everybody could have an original work of art in their house, and so we developed this method, and I was one of the first to do one. I still have it. And the first wasn't called serigraph at that time, it was called silk screen. It was an old process that the Chinese used, and experimenting with it we found a way of doing it. The first one I did had 32 colors.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh wow.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And then I—after a couple years I got it down, be able to do it in one color, so then I gave up the whole idea.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh, [laughs] I see.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: But it was a wonderful thing that happened.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What were some of the others that worked—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I'm trying to—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: —with you on that, do you remember—do you remember those?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: There was Hy Wasinger [ph]. He was the one that started the whole thing first.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: [Inaudible.]
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Bernie Sharp [ph]. Let me see if I can remember who else. I don't remember. I'd have to sit down and think, and I really have a very bad memory.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well, it was a long time ago, even to remember names.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Let's see.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well, I am—one of the artists that I have interviewed in Santa Fe was Louie Ewing, who was—started it out here.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I know, I remember.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: And—because he had never worked on it before either, but Vernon Hunter gave him an opportunity to experiment with it and then developed his silk-screen process from that. So that was a real innovation in New York and New Mexico.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Oh yeah, it really started with the—started with this group. And there are books written about it, and I'm trying to think of who—it was Zigrosser, is that his name? Carl Zigrosser? He sort of backed the thing—he was—he worked for—I think for the Weyhe Gallery. Do you remember the Weyhe Gallery in New York?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: No. [Inaudible.]
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: It was a print gallery. [Inaudible.]
SYLVIA LOOMIS: [Inaudible.] They may have these names, you know, from the New York projects. I mean the interviews they've had with people there. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, one of the person's name I remember is Riva Helfond and—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh. I remember those very nice silk-screen prints that were put out during that period. When I was in New York—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And that was during that period.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes. Well, what kind of supervision did you have?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, we worked on our own mostly, I mean we had a workshop, and we used to go in the workshop and work on the stones, and have it printed right there.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I see. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I think, if I'm not wrong, we had to do a lithograph a month.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What about a press?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, they had the—see, they had a workshop. They had two printers working there all the time, and you—and you had stones, and you used to go in there and work on the stones, and then they'd print it. You worked with the printer directly, you see. Which was another wonderful thing which you can't do privately because it's so expensive, like, I've been out here all these years, I've never had it done on a lithograph because I have no way of having it printed.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: You see, you have to have the proper equipment.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes, I know, it's kind of—kind of bulky.
[00:09:59]
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And many of my prints were put in museums, like the Metropolitan Museum bought one, and Modern, and it was—it was a lively thing at that time.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well, that was the—when you—I didn't—hadn't realized that when you said printers before you had two excellent printers, and I was thinking of a—of a commercial printer outside, but these were just the two printers, right?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Oh no, these were the two printers that you worked with right—
[Cross talk.]
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Right within the studio. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Yeah, it was a much smaller room than this, and—you know, so that you can sort of correct it as you went along and make changes.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh yes, I see. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, what—I—the next question here is what affect did the Project have on your work as an artist, and I can see that in developing this silk-screen process [inaudible]—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: It had tremendous impact on me, and certainly—well, I think it's more than that, I think it's a way of life. I mean, I sort of started my life and have direction and have continued it. And—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And if you hadn't had that opportunity, why you might have had to—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Who knows which way.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes, might not have been able to continue at all, or gotten involved in something else. And how many of your fellow artists do you think it also affected, you know, in a similar manner?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, I think most everybody. I don't think there's anybody that didn't work on the Project seriously that it hasn't changed their life. For instance, one of the things I think that's interesting about is that everybody was more or less the same age, between—mostly between 20 and 30, which is a marvelous, vital age for people and it left a tremendous impression on them, because I think they were totally involved.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Like, we all sort of remained friends. And whenever we see anybody from the Project in the old days it's like a lost brother, you know, that kind of thing. It really was a—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: As I say, a way of life and we all—what was nice about it was that everybody had exactly the same amount of money.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Uh-huh [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And then we were all the same age. We all had, as I say, about the same about of money, and so we all sort of did the same things, which was very nice. And since then, I mean, you know, everybody's gone off in a different direction, but I think one of the important things is that both Louis and I make our complete living from selling paintings and we have since then. I mean so that we'd be considered professional painters.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes, mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: If that's the word to use.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes, well I would certainly say so. Because if you're able to earn your living at it—
[Cross talk.]
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, that's what we've done.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: —that's your profession. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: We haven't done anything else.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes, and it's—and you got a sufficient impetus during that period, so that it has—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: But I do think, of course, like in my case, and I think in Louis' case too, I mean, we would have been artists no matter what, and there are many people that might not have, but it just—because in spite of everything, we still continue here when there's no warm climate for it, you know. It's a terrible situation out here, I think.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Do you want to explain that a little more?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, like, it's very unsympathetic toward art, it's gone—though it was known as an art colony, I think it goes in completely opposite to art. I mean it's interested in selling to the tourists, interested in sort of buckeye painting, but not real painting. I mean, everybody is sort of against you here if you are a painter.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Is that right?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And—like, we have no—we have no spokesman, no center, no nowhere where we belong or no backing of any kind, where I'd say the reactionary painters or—not—I wouldn't even consider them painters, people that make pictures for sale, they're organized, and they have the complete market.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Is that right?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Yes.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well I'd thought that was the case in Santa Fe, but I thought Taos was still—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well no, it's all over in New Mexico, the whole—I'm talking about the total New Mexico.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well I know the lack of any real criticism—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, look at how many years—I mean, you've been there 15 years, I mean, and you never even met us. I mean, tell you—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. That's right.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: This is the kind of atmosphere it is here.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yeah, there's no nucleus of art.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: There's no nucleus, there's no backing, there's no sympathy, there's no—I mean, you can't just work in a vacuum. This is not how art can grow.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: No. Well I'm—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And I mean everybody feels it, it's not just a question of—it so happens we're doing all right, perhaps personally, I mean, we have a nice house, and we have a way of life, and we travel, you know. I'm not talking about from that point of view, but I mean—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. No, not personally.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: But I'm talking about it from the point of view of—for the country, for the—I mean, after all this is important thing in a way that—this is one of the main centers for culture for the West from people that live in Texas, and Colorado, and California. They're all—and there's just nowhere for them to go see good art, because we don't even have a place to show.
[00:15:16]
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Is that right?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
SYLVIA LOOMIS: You don't—do you use any of the commercial galleries in Taos—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well there's over 30 galleries here in Taos, but it's all junk.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: If you see what—I mean, where before in the early days, when we first came here, there were some isolated artists, and there was a feeling for art, but it's gotten out of hand. Just like Santa Fe, remember? When you first came there, whether you agree with it, there was some feeling. But now there isn't, is there?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: No. Well, and the—of course I've—that—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And look what happened to the museum, I mean, John Sloan [ph]—I mean, it's one good example, started with the idea of it should be a place where anybody can show, in other words it was a—it was a democratic idea, and of course it didn't work, but that's not the point. But after all the findings [ph] to try and bring it up into the modern world, it ends up with no director and the worst junk in the world, and Louis and I can't even show there. They won't even let us show.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Gracious. I didn't realize that.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Oh sure. So, I mean, how can we—how can we get anywhere unless we have museum backing or some backing?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, that really surprises me that you sense it up here, in Taos—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Oh, completely.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: —because I've been envious of the Taos group because I thought, well least there they have a high standard.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, we used to, but we—but not anymore. I mean, it's just so that we're the only ones left; there are no painters. You know, Lockwood died last year, and a few of the others are gone, there's just nobody here now.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm. Well, to get back to the New York situation, what effect do you think that these projects had on the art of America?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, I think—I think it opened the doors. I mean, before the Art Project—in fact very few people that even taught had ever seen original painting outside—unless you lived in the big cities, a few of the very big cities. They had no opportunity of ever seeing original art. They had never known any artists. I mean, it was just—it wasn't part of our life. Where today and 20 years, it's—or 25 years, it's become that. I mean, it's—and living here we get a crossroads of the world, I mean, everybody comes to see us, you know, from all over and there is an interest in art. Like if you lived in some jerk town in Texas, how would you ever see a painting?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do you think that this was appreciated by the people, the public generally? Or do you think they had to become educated?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, I don't know if they're—I don't know if they're aware of it, but I think the buying public today was sort of buying because of this. In other words, they were children, say, when—or young people at that time and that's when they got their start, their interest in art. And now they can afford to buy art, and without having been exposed to that they wouldn't be.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes. Yes, mm-hmm [affirmative]. Let's see. What did you do after the—or well—first, how long were you on the Project, or did you tell me that?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, I was on—yes, I think was on eight years. About eight years—seven or eight years.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Eight years. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Let's see, from '35 to about '42, there's no—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yeah, I think it closed just about that time because the rest of the time [inaudible] war.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, yeah. I stayed on to the end.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: You did. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And what were you doing at the—toward the close where you could—just continued with your—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: No, at the close they made us work for the war effort, we do—we painted armbands. All the artists that were left had to paint armbands.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative]. Now, what did you do in the meantime, you do anything different beside the lithographs or, you know—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well all the time I was painting.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: You were?
BEATICE MANDELMAN: Yes. And I've had shows in New York and I've had over 21 main shows. I mean, I've been working as an artist all the time.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And—but was this easel painting? I mean—and oils?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Yeah, mm-hmm [affirmative].
SYLVIA LOOMIS: So, that you—but for the Project, you just did graphic—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
SYLVIA LOOMIS: —you were on a graphic project all the way through?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
SYLVIA LOOMIS: And then the paintings you did was on your own? Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Yeah, on my own. Well, the—I think the lithographs I did was just part of my painting, it was part of my development. I didn't separate, it was just a way of reproducing my feelings at that time.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do you have any of that from that period?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Oh yes, I have them.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Because I'd love to see some of them.
BEATRICE MANDELDMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I'll show you some.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I probably would—probably will remember them.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Probably.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well, have you—have you ever worked in other media besides that that we've mentioned?
[00:19:59]
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: You mean, for the graphic project, or—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Since, or any time. I mean, anything beside—we've mentioned murals, and graphic art, and easel painting. Have you done anything else?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, yes. I do caseins [ph] and I do watercolors.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative], Just experiment—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I'm doing collages now, I'm having a big a show of collages. And I've had shows in Europe and I've had shows in Mexico City, and I'm mostly doing collages right now.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Is that—is this exhibition of yours, that's opening next Friday, is collage?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Try to come out if you can.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh yes, I would like very much to see it.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I'll show you some of the things right now. And right now—and this might be interesting—I don't know how to say this because—well, at the time when I was on the Project, the most popular movement in art at that time was the social school. Well, I mean, I didn't paint that at all, but I feel today an artist should try to make some social statement of his time, and I think that we have to try to find a way to do it.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do you feel that you're doing that with your collages?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, right now, this minute I am, because I'm doing something on integration.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: It's at the framer's now, so you can't see it but—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well did you—were you Mr. Ribak married when he came to New Mexico and so, you came with him at that time?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes. That's why I came.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I see, mm-hmm [affirmative]. And well now, we were—at the time that we were discussing with Mr. Ribak the—what form another government subsidy of the arts might take, you had—you didn't quite agree with him. Do you want to go on with that about the—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, yes, I feel that art should be under the government. I feel that it belongs to the world, I don't feel that we should depend upon people's personal taste whether they buy your painting or not. I think paintings belong in museums and—because the artist is—to me, is a true historian, they are the ones that are really recording the times. And I think without culture what are we going to have? I think that we do have enough—well, I mean that's silly to say—I think—or we do have an affluent society. And certainly, a society of this could certainly help—not help but I mean, can afford to support the arts. And I think that what the Kennedys were trying to do is a wonderful thing. It's a shame what happened. But it's taken so many years to sort of get it off the ground. Every other country has it. It—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: At least a portfolio of the arts, or a cabinet or something—someplace in the government, encourage it.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, something. I mean—I mean government should be the one, I—and I mean, and then—I mean, I was thinking about, you know, Johnson's been doing all this—or well not, let's see, how can I say it. I mean all this talk about fighting poverty. Well for people that can't work, but the artist can work, they're the ones that—I mean, this would really be positive to help people that are really giving something to the world, not just because they're broken down. That's what I mean. I think—I think the artists are the healthiest people of all, and I think that society can't afford to ignore them. And I think that the reason why we have Pop art now is because the artists haven't—I mean, they have to go into this commercial work, I mean, because this is all there is. You know, there should be another place for artists.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, do you—do you feel that the good artist of today is really interpreting his time?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Yes, I do.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: You do.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Absolutely, all the way. He can't help it, because that's what he is. Whether we see it, or we don't see it.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, and these completely non-representational types of paintings, of—what is your interpretation of those? Of, say, large canvases with just form—color forms without any representational matter?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, I mean, I think in every period there's good painting and there's bad painting, and I think the important thing is that there be some good painting, that there should be a climate where good painting can grow. I think that the artist doesn't have a choice. I mean, like, you can't tell the artist how to do it, because I don't think it matters if it's not objective, or it's realistic, or what it is, if it's good painting. And the only way I think you can get good painting is to have freedom to do anything the artist wants to do. I mean, that—in other words, when it's ready to come out, it has to come out. And—and—uh—
[00:25:24]
SYLVIA LOOMIS: How much do you think that the artist is influenced by these various fads?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, that's the thing, you see. I think that the real artist necessarily isn't, but I think it's all this fringe. I think that—I mean, after having been all over the world, and seen so much, and been in this sort of business for so many years, I don't think that there are any more artists now than there ever have been. In other words, there are only certain types, certain people that are artists. I think the other people, I mean, are not artists, I consider them amateurs from the point of view that they just do it for self-satisfaction. I don't think artists do it from that point of view. I think artists are there to record history, and they do it because that's they're job, they're driven to do it and they have to do it. I think the other people are just doing it for their self-glorification, which is another thing, it has nothing to do with art. But I think that—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Do you think that makes it difficult on the good artists?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Absolutely, because there is no room, I mean—I—if a—I mean, I see it so clearly here, after all these years, we've been here all—over 20 years, painting all the time, and I've got thousands of paintings and I'll show you my studio. I mean, millions of paintings. There's no place for us to show. Everybody else, I mean, every two days another gallery opens up but they're—we don't have a gallery to show.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: How do you account for this low taste?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Because—huh?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: This low standard of taste? I mean, and why they—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Because all of a sudden the racketeers have gotten into art. They realize it's a business, and it's a big business. They were selling an awful lot of paintings here, doing very well. That is, the gallery dealers, you know. I mean, tourists come, and they sell it. And—so the more it goes in that direction, the less room there is for artists.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: For the real artists, mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: It's just, like, in—Dasburg doesn't have a place to show, you know what I mean? There's less for the people like him, people like ourselves, one or two other people. You know, it's all junk.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: It is. Yeah.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I mean, and why? I mean, I don't understand it.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh, I don't either. [Laughs.]
BEATRICE MANDEMAN: And I don't understand—and I don't understand why anybody in their right mind would want to be an artist if they're not an artist.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: The only reason you're an artist is because you can't help yourself, because what's the point?
SYLVA LOOMIS: That's true. It's true. That's the thing—
BEATICE LOOMIS: There's certainly no money in it, there's no glory in it, there's no happiness in it. I mean, it's just work all the time—not even work, I mean, you're just driven. So, I don't understand it. But, like, I think all that will die by the wayside, there's no doubt about that. But in the meantime, I think what it's become is become an objet d'art. In other words, everybody has reached the position where everybody has a Frigidaire, and everybody has a television set, and everybody has a car. What next, you know? It's acquiring an object. Not from the point of view of really understanding the responsibility of the artist and what they—what they're trying to do, what they're trying to say, and—do you know what I mean?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes, I do, very definitely. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And also, I think that everybody is so harassed by the visual experiences they have that they don't know whether they're coming or going. I mean, I don't remember the exact figures but it's something, like, every—the average person has, on the average day, say, something like 2,000 impressions, or something like that, of these commercial things just hitting all day long. Well, how can you be a free person to even enjoy a real experience? You don't have time to see it.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes, that's a good point, I hadn't thought about that before, but that—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well that's what it is, you're just so—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: — helps to account for this state that we're in, that the world seems to be—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I mean, it's hysteria, don't you think?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I think it is. And I—as a phenomenon that I have not been able to analyze personally and may—that will at least give me a clue.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I think that's what it is, I think that everybody's just desperate. Just desperate. They don't know where to turn, they don't—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And I think in the past I have always felt that the person could turn to the arts for the relief that we need from all of this.
[00:30:03]
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
SYLVIA LOOMIS: But when I've been to the—the exhibitions in Santa Fe I just feel worse than I did before.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Oh, absolutely.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Almost always. And occasionally I see something good, but by and large it's instead of a relief it just is a further frustration to me, having been accustomed to the good art that I saw when I was in the East—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Sure.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: —and it's been a great disappointment to me. And I can understand how it would be even more difficult for a real artist—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I mean, I've heard—you know, I've heard this statement and I sort of felt it, but not until this year did I actually make it a conclusive decision about it, but there's certain places, certain climates where things can grow. And there's no use, it's a desert here. You can't make it grow. I mean, no matter how much energy you put into it, but the earth just doesn't give it back or something, I mean, it's just not right.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well now, do you feel that is New Mexico, or the people in it?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I think it's the total thing.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Total thing. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I think, like, that they never had a high culture here, and it's just—I mean man just doesn't count. I think nature is so much stronger here than man.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, now the early artist that came to New Mexico, into Taos, were so thrilled by it.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, but they were—it was a different thing, I mean, they were—they were doing it from a pictorial point of view. And I don't think, personally, that any of the work will last. I mean, I think it's all regional, and I think it's dated, and I think there was some good painting, but it has nothing to do with the universal thing of what art is all about.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, I must admit that I got terribly tired of all of the paintings of the mesas and the Indians, and several—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: No, there wasn't—there wasn't, and nobody did, and even when some of the good artists came out here, nothing—and yet, there's something tremendous here, you know. I mean, if you can sort of sit it out and everything, and I—and I do think that what Louis is doing and I'm doing is very good work. I really do believe in it. And after having—we lived in Europe for two years and just came back, I really feel we've got something. You know, I don't—but it's not—but it has nothing to do with here, really, you know, that's what—I mean, that's just—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well, I've found that too, that I have to go away, every once in a while, to sort of recharge my batteries.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Yep. But this is a—it's a good place to work out your problems, but we think of ourselves just, like, just being here working, you know, not—this is not the place. Do you know, [inaudible] explain—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yeah, I do. I know that you aren't really living here, you're just working here.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Yeah.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: But it's not a complete thing.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: No. And we have a very good set up, as you can see, we have a beautiful house. I have my own studio and Louis has his. So where would you get the space, you see, from a—for this amount of money and everything, you couldn't possibly get a place like this anywhere in the world.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well, I think—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: So, in that sense it's a very good place to sort of hide out.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. You know, I've always felt that the ideal living arrangement would be to be in New Mexico for the—well, maybe from May through October, then go to New York—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Oh, sure.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: —for the—for those months, and then you could—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Sure, if you could afford it, it's perfect.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: You know, then you could come back here—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Sure.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: —and appreciate the beauty and the wonderful things that exist in New Mexico; but if you can't afford it then you have to make a choice, and I made the choice of being here. You see, in spite of the fact of the lack of intellectual stimulus, which I have found ever since I've been here.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well—but, I mean, New York is just a rat race, I mean, how could you face it unless you had the money, and perfect health, and—you just can't go without money.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well, it seems to be important.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, I mean, it's absolutely impossible where at one time we could, you know, sort of live very simply, but even to live in a tenement house, I mean, it costs so much money in New York. You have to have hundreds of dollars, you really do. So it's just absolutely impossible what we do is we go to Mexico every winter.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh, mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And if we don't go to Europe, but we just can't [inaudible]—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Where do you to Mexico?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, we always—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Or different places? I see.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Different places, but we always live in San Miguel, and, you know, it's—that's home. We've been going for 17 years, so as you see, we have big pre-Columbia collection [inaudible].
[Cross talk.]
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes, I've been looking at that. Is there much of a vital art colony there? I know there is artist there, but—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, there was, but not anymore. It's again like here, the same thing has happened.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Is that right? Well, too bad.
[00:35:15]
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: It's happening all over the world. I don't know. That's outside of the big centers. I mean in the small places. You know, so I don't think that's a—that is a solution anymore, is to go to a small little place.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I don't think it's the climate today.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Maybe not. Certainly seen a lot of change in the last 30 or 40 years, haven't we, all of us?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Yes.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well, are there any other comments that you'd like to make, particularly about the—those Project days, when was—we've gone a little afield, but I think it's been extremely interesting and I'm very glad to get this—more intelligent remarks about the climate, because I have—it's been bothering me, and I think that it is something that is very general, but it—and to have it relate particularly to New Mexico is important. I think in our whole—the whole scheme of things.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I think so.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Maybe out of some of these—but I always try to get the artist I interview to say something about the way they feel today.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Feel about the world, sure.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: The way things are going and the development of art, and just what they—what they feel the next direction is. Do you have any thoughts about the next direction? Do you see any trends yet?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, I do. I see a complete change, I mean, in the whole—in the whole direction. I think that—I don't know how to say it yet, because it's not clear. But I know there's going to be a complete change.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
LOUIS RIBAK: Towards what?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, I think perhaps toward making a bigger social statement.
LOUIS RIBAK: That's a—that's a term that we decided not to use a long time ago.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I know, but now it's going to have a more vitality, more—
LOUIS RIBAK: Because everything has to do with social—with the social meaning. There was a time when a tree had to do with a social meaning, when—there was a time when some people claimed that a cup had to do with social meaning.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, I want—
LOUIS RIBAK: But today we are reverting [ph] perhaps to another term which is human. Some people are claiming that. And anything can be a social meaning, or a social statement, which adds to the quality of aesthetics, or to the creative effort. All of that is a social statement.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, I don't think of it in quite that way. I think of it in—today in terms of the sociological statement, because I think the brighter people are reevaluating all our values, and I think that we have to—with all the new feelings and new things that have happened, I think we have to just go over everything again and put things in different places than they were.
LOUIS RIBAK: Are you thinking of Pop art, or innovation?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well I think Pop art is a negative attitude toward it. I think out of it would come a more in positive prerogative.
LOUIS RIBAK: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. More positive.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I think that—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: So this is a more positive social statement that you think is about to be made or that will be made in the fairly near future. Well, I feel as though it must be made.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, it will be made. And I think that it's so interesting because of—I think this whole period of Abstract Expressionism was—I mean, a good thing, it freed things, it opened the door, I mean, let in some air, and then from there there's going to move into another direction, I think. I think, also, that we're going to go into a more classical period of—I don't know how to say that either [laughs]. But I—that's the only thing I can say, a more classical period.
LOUIS RIBAK: But don't you think that—may I say something?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Oh, by all means.
LOUIS RIBAK: That various periods that are sometimes called trends—and sometimes they're—they have other names, sometimes they're called fads, sometimes epochs, and so on.
But trends in the 20th century, especially during the middle 20th century until now in the '60s, have been very short-lived. And—but still almost every trend has the classical moment.
[00:40:19]
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And I think we've got to go into it.
LOUIS RIBAK: We're about to. That is versus I was—if I may interplay something—I used to know the Belgian cultural ambassador, he used to visit me here years ago. I wish he did again. I believe he's still centered in New York. His name is Jan, J-A-N, Goris, G-O-R-I-S. He's written a number of books and his specialty was the Belgian Congo. Of course, today the Belgian Congo is in a turmoil and chaos, but he threw films of the creative doings of various sectors of the Belgian Congo right in this room. And I had friends here, mostly artists, come and look. Do you remember the time when he said there—he pointed to various results of that creative effort there, and he said this is academic. Remember?
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
LOUIS RIBAK: [BEB1] And he said, This is at the classical period. And mind you, these were all those carvings that we look at as extremely primitive and absolutely what some people would say oh, ultra-modern or something like that. He said academic. And here, with all my experience, I suddenly realized that the man knew what he was talking about, and that I wasn't aware of that particular phase of it. Later, after I discussed it with him and he pointed out that whether—when a thing becomes the mold, it becomes very academic. And the same thing happened to nonobjective painting, recently, it—in the abstract expressionist phase that Beatrice was mentioning—when it had no more meaning, it became academic. And here, people said oh, this is too modern, too ultra-modern. Actually it was conservative and reactionary.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes. Well, that's what I felt that is—
[Cross talk.]
LOUIS RIBAK: And it wasn't going forward.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: —that, like what—mm-hmm [affirmative].
LOUIS RIBAK: It wasn't—it wasn't, and never—and that's what I was—I referred to before, it wasn't—by not permitting other groups, other efforts to gain a footing or to gain a presentation, it was as reactionary as any form ever was—that's what happens in any period, in any trend.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes.
LOUIS RIBAK: But every trend also has its classical moment, when it comes to a fruition and becomes sort of toned down, the rough edges are smoothed out. But also—the classical also represents something at times not very creative. There are times when the classical actually means a lack of imagination.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes, of course. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. When you say it has come to fruition, and then new life has to be born, to go on from there.
LOUIS RIBAK: That's right. Except that those in the saddle [laughs] well, perhaps over mature and overripe, they refuse to permit anything new.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yeah, they perpetuate it, huh. Long as they possibly can.
LOUIS RIBAK: That's right, that's right.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: And then it's one who breaks away from that into something new again.
LOUIS RIBAK: That's right, or it gets born.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: And I suppose things like this Pop art movement is a rebellion against it, don't you think?
LOUIS RIBAK: Well, the Pop art, as Beatrice hinted, perhaps, is a—is not a—it's a negative thing in a sense.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.
LOUIS RIBAK: We happened to see—listened to a lecture and see slides just a few days ago here, by—I don't remember the professor's name. I usually remember—especially professors, I—since I don't like professors, I usually remember their names. But there were some who were included in it that were creative. But others, they were commercial artists and they're not—really not adding anything to the aesthetic scene.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well, where were the slides from? I mean, what collection or what—from—
[00:45:03]
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: They're from New York. They're people, like—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: From New York, oh.
LOUIS RIBAK: Well, all the names, let's say, there's—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Seigal [ph], Chamberlain—
LOUIS RIBAK: Well, Seigal [ph] is sculptor, Chamberlain is a sculptor who crushes automobiles.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Rosenquist.
LOUIS RIBAK: Rosenquist, Morris Louis, Rauschenberg, and Marisol—now, Marisol, Rauschenberg, and Morris Louis have quality. The others didn't. I mean, to do a hamburger doesn't do anything for me somehow. Well, maybe it could lead to something, but I'm seeing realistic painters do better than that.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: No, but I mean it—
LOUIS RIBAK: So, there's—so, there's no addition, no—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: No. Mm-hmm [affirmative].
LOUIS RIBAK: It doesn't do anything for me.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yeah.
LOUIS RIBAK: For instance, it's like bringing someone on the burlesque stage and saying, "Hey, how do you like her?" I'll say, "No, I like her."
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. [Laughs.]
LOUIS RIBAK: Or something like that. [Laughs.]
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yeah.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Well, no, I think, again, it was important for two things. One is, I think, it was important in that it broke the power of the Abstract Expressionist—
LOUIS RIBAK: That's right.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: —they were in the—I mean they became, like, the kings and the queens and everything and nobody had chance. I mean, everything had to be directed toward that. The fact that they were able to break that power, I felt, was very good.
LOUIS RIBAK: It's very true.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Second of all, that it opens a new vision that m—to make people look again and a new attitude toward these things, I think is good.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I mean, anybody that would open any door for you, I think is wonderful.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes, I –
[Cross talk.]
LOUIS RIBAK: Yes, that's very true.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: You don't have to agree with it, but that's what it's all about. And I—and I appreciate that anybody that does anything. So it makes it so much easier for me, you know, and I feel you feel the same way, you know, in that sense. Because I think that we don't live alone, I feel that we're all part of the—of the whole thing, and that every little thing we do belongs to everybody. And in what one person does over there, I mean, sort of influences me, and vice versa. I think it's a—it's sort of chain reaction. And I do think that in spite of themselves, I think that something is happening. I mean, they're make us look—well, personally, I've always looked that way, but that's because—I mean, that's my business—I mean, I'm a visual person, and I see the world completely through visual experiences, but the average person doesn't. And so if they can shock these people into looking, I think that's good.
SYLVIA LOOMIA: Yes, I do too.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: But with that attitude they'll have to do something creative with it, you know. I don't think they're doing any creative with it yet, it's too new.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. They have—something has to come out of it, I mean, to prove that—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: And I think that we're moving so damn fast, like, I mean, everybody's bored with analysis. I mean, and so many of us feel that—I mean, it was all in the wrong direction anyway, you know? And 10 years ago, that's all everybody talked about, you know. So I mean, this is—we're moving so damn fast. I mean, who would dream that 10 years ago that'd you talk this way against Freud. You know, you just wouldn't dare. So, I think we're growing up very fast and art is moving fast too. And, I mean, Abstract Expressionism went all the way; and it went all the way in 10 years. But it's—I think it's sort of finished now, don't you?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Yes, I do. And that's why I'm interested to see what's going to come next, because I was one of the greatest exponents of Abstract Expressionism when—and I used to lecture on it in New York, years ago, when—before it was accepted at all, and of course, in a great many places it never was accepted.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Sure, mm-hmm [affirmative].
SYLVIA LOOMIS: But I feel that—as you say, it shattered the mold, and now we've got to go on to something more than this—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: More. More positive. But out of it, I mean, so much has taken place.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: So much has come. And if we just can keep the discipline and the standards, we will come through this and into something still better that is really representative of the—of the best in today's thinking.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Of course. But without the artist what would you have?
SYLVIA LOOMIS: That's right.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I mean, it'd be a pretty dreary world.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Certainly would, and I feel that the artist has a great responsibility in this.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I do too, and I think at this point more than ever, because where else can people turn to? I mean—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I mean, they're looking, they're searching, and [inaudible]—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I mean, there's just nowhere, there's no resting spot for them at all, they just have to keep on this thread mill [ph] or whatever it is, I mean, it's just every minute, you know, counting—accounting for. They're just absolutely bewildered.
[00:50:00]
SYLVIA LOOMIS: They are. Yeah, I think the world is bewildered at this point, mm-hmm [affirmative].
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Oh, well it is, and it's emotionally bewildered because our values that we believed in no longer are true in that sense. You have to reevaluate them.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And there's no new ones yet to take their place.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: No, because it hasn't jelled yet, and—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well I—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: However, I do feel that the young people in the universities today are questioning this. I think—
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, I'm glad you see hope for the future, because—
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: Oh, I do.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: I do, too.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: I absolutely do, and I think it's going to be a much better world.
SYLVIA LOOMIS: Well, I thank you very much for this interview, it's been extremely enlightening, and it was nice to have your comments on the Projects in New York, but I think I've enjoyed this latter part of it even more so because it has been encouraging to me. So, thank you very much, and you again, Mr. Ribak.
BEATRICE MANDELMAN: We're glad—
[END OF TRACK AAA_mandel64_257_m.]
[END OF INTERVIEW.]
