Nanette L. Laitman Documentation Project For Craft and Decorative Arts in America

Interview with Hiroko Sato Pijanowski
Conducted by Arline M. Fisch
At the Artist's home in Honolulu, Hawaii
May 13-15, 2003

Preface

The following oral history transcript is the result of a tape-recorded interview with Hiroko Sato Pijanowski on May 13-15, 2003. The interview took place in Honolulu, Hawaii and was conducted by Arline M. Fisch for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. This interview is part of the Nanette L. Laitman Documentation Project for Craft and Decorative Arts in America.

Hiroko Sato Pijanowski and Arline M. Fisch have reviewed the transcript and have made corrections and emendations. The reader should bear in mind that he or she is reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written prose.

Interview

MS. FISCH: This is Arline Fisch interviewing Hiroko Pijanowski at her home in Honolulu on May 13, 2003, for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.

This is disc number one.

Hiroko, I think of you as a truly binational person, both Japanese and American, but I wonder how you think of yourself. How do you define yourself? Are you a Japanese person who lives in America, or a person who is of both cultures? What do you think?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I am a Japanese who lives in the United States. But I have a mixed feeling about it, because when I think about am I really truly Japanese, I'm not; and when I think about am I really Americanized, partially, yes, but mostly no. But I'm not Japanese-American or American-Japanese. And when I go back to Japan, I don't feel like I'm a Japanese.

MS. FISCH: You don't.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Not 100 percent. And when I live in United States, of course I'm not American, but more feel like Japanese. So I myself don't know who I am. [Laughs.] And once my friend said, "You're not Japanese," in Japan. I've been told by my friend that I'm not Japanese anymore. So I asked her, "Then what am I? What do you think? Am I American? Am I American-Japanese?" And she said, "Well, you are"-what did she call me-"You are international person."

MS. FISCH: And does that make you comfortable? I mean, are you happy with that definition?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: In a way, I thought she is right, because I don't belong to either any longer.

MS. FISCH: I see.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: And I don't [feel] sad.

MS. FISCH: It doesn't make you sad.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, it doesn't make me sad, because I know what part is still Japanese, and I know myself that I'm more towards Japanese than American. And if I feel that I am American, I will be taking American citizenship.

MS. FISCH: I see. And you haven't done that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I just can't. No, because I just don't feel 100 percent that I'm American. If I feel 90 percent I'm American, I will. It doesn't have to be 100 percent.

MS. FISCH: Can we talk first about you family and your childhood and youth in Japan? What was your family like? Where were you born?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I was born in Tokyo.

MS. FISCH: In Tokyo.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, 10 days after the Second World War started. And I was the first grandchild to my grandparents. Also -

I don't know what to talk about, what you mean by this. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: Okay. Who were your parents?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Who were my parents?

MS. FISCH: What was their background? What did they do?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Okay. My father was a medical doctor. My mother was a typical housewife. And I didn't have any brothers or sisters. I was only one child. And so I was being loved a lot and I was spoiled.

MS. FISCH: I see.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: And I didn't know that I was spoiled.

MS. FISCH: Was there an extended family, with other children from aunts and uncles and so on?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No. We are not a big family. And my uncle doesn't have any children. I'm talking about my mother's side now. My uncle doesn't have any children. My aunt has only two. They lived in Kawasaki, which is south of Tokyo, for a while. And my father's side, only two cousins. And now I have two more, but I already left Japan, so I never even met one of them still. I don't know who.

MS. FISCH: So you were a very small family, you and your mother and father. And where did you live?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: We lived in Tokyo, but then when the Second World War started, we moved out of the city. And when we came back to Tokyo, we didn't have any house, so we moved to Yokohama and found a fishing village to live in, and lived there. And I started going to elementary school. But the fishing village did not have a good school system, so my mother found one school which is basically run by the-Christianity?

MS. FISCH: By a Christian group?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Christian group, which was quite far from where I lived. It took me about one hour to get to the school. And that was starting in my third grade. I made lots of good friends. I still correspond with them.

MS. FISCH: I know. I noticed that you talked yesterday about how you are still in contact with your schoolmates at different levels.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah!

MS. FISCH: And I think that's really unusual in this country.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: But why? [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: Well, it's unusual in this country, I think, because we move around so much. But it must be quite-is it quite normal in Japan?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I don't think so.

MS. FISCH: But it's normal for you.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It's me. Yeah, it's me. Because I didn't have any brothers and sisters, so the friends are more important, right? So I think it's very unusual that I kept contact with elementary friends, high school friends, university friends. And the reason why I'm saying [that] is that once I went to a party with 40 university friends there, and one guy said to me that "You know, my friends at work envy me so much." And I said, "Why? And he said, "Just because I have such a great relationship with my colleagues." And I said, "What do you mean?" And he said that most of the people don't have.

MS. FISCH: So it isn't all that common.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No.

MS. FISCH: But it's important for you.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah.

MS. FISCH: I think that's wonderful.

Were your parents artistic?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: My father was a Sunday painter. That's how I started oil painting, when I was very young. My mother was not doing anything physically, but she, I think, had more sensibility.

MS. FISCH: Sensitivity?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Sensitivity for the arts. And she can criticize, and it's quite severe, but it's also, in a way, very true. My father likes to do physically, but he was a terrible painter. [Laughs.] And their relationship wasn't great.

MS. FISCH: Between your mother and father.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. That's why I have a job now-and it's very unusual to have a job, for my generation particularly, in Japan-just because my mother had a terrible life with my father.

MS. FISCH: Yet you loved them both. No?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes and no. I loved my mother, and I used to dream-could I talk about something like this?

MS. FISCH: Of course.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I used to have a dream of my mother going to leave me, every night when I was little. And I didn't know why I was having such a dream. But every night? I thought that was very unusual.

MS. FISCH: Is this when you were very young?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Very young, like maybe first grade or a little before, for a long time, even [when] I went to high school. I had a dream every night my mother is leaving me. And always she is going away and I am standing and calling my mother's name, and she never turned around to come back. And I found out later why. It's because my father was having affair with quite a number of ladies, but a particular one-we found out, after he died, he still kept the relationship. So he actually had a second wife all year[s] long.

MS. FISCH: Did he have other children?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No. That was good thing, my mother said. That was a good thing that he did not have, he didn't make any children.

MS. FISCH: And probably good for you, as well.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. I think so, too. And one day I was walking with her and I said to her, "Oh, that is the lady my father took me to the beach and I thought 'I don't like her.'" That was a time when my mother was thinking of leaving home and leaving me behind and she'd just take off so that he would get married with this lady and would take care of me. But since she heard that word, she couldn't leave.

MS. FISCH: She couldn't leave because you didn't like this other lady.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I didn't like her.

And then a couple years later I think my mother actually tried to commit suicide. And I knew, even though I was little, what she was trying to do. And I even told my father I should not tell anyone about what happened today, won't say anything. I never said anything about it till maybe five, six years ago, never told anyone.

MS. FISCH: You never acknowledged that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. I just kept secret, just because for my mother. It's kind of embarrassing, hard for her, to have done such a thing.

MS. FISCH: Right. And it's her secret, I suppose.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. But from that experience, she had a thought that women should have a job, so then the woman could be equal with the man if the woman makes income. Also she can-I mean she or me or whoever has a job can leave him anytime, so they can make a living.

MS. FISCH: So your independence, she felt, was important.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. If she had a job, she could have left him, taking me with her. She couldn't do it, just because no job available.

MS. FISCH: That's very interesting that that background has so influenced your career.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. Yes. So I've been told, when I got into the junior high, the woman should have a job. Whatever job you want, anything, have a job.

MS. FISCH: Just so that you can be your own person.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. But she didn't tell me why. I figured it out later. But I just listened to her suggestion, I think.

MS. FISCH: So what kinds of schools did you go to? I mean, you said you went to a Christian elementary school.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm, elementary school.

MS. FISCH: And then what kind of school did you go to?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Then I went to another Christian junior high, senior high, which was Episcopal mission school; also the high school, junior high, senior high, both.

MS. FISCH: And did you study art there? I mean, did you have any special art instruction? You said you started painting because of your father being a painter, but did you also have art lessons in school or after school?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. From the elementary school, I liked painting the best, and that was the best grade. I always got A. Everything else was, like, B or C.

MS. FISCH: That told you something.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: That told me something. And another thing was that-again going back to my mother-that I thought was great, she saw it, what's the good-because of the grade, right? So she brought papers and pens to me as much as she can, because at that time it was very difficult to get those things after the war.

MS. FISCH: Because of the war shortages.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. It was very difficult, but she got it, as much as I wanted. So I was feeding by her also and supported by her. And then, of course, junior high, senior high, I loved painting. And there was a group you can take extra after the class ended. I took painting. And then in high school, at one time I was going to go to Geidai.

MS. FISCH: What's Geidai?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Where Mr. Hiramatsu teaches.

MS. FISCH: Oh, it's a school, the university.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: The University of Tokyo in Fine Arts. We call that Geidai, G-e-i-d-a-i [Tokyo National University of Fine Arts and Music].

MS. FISCH: And it's the art school.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. It's a short name for -

MS. FISCH: Art school at the University of Tokyo.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, a particular one, the University of Tokyo in Fine Arts. You don't call "Geidai" for all art schools.

MS. FISCH: I see.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: If you say, "I'm graduate from Geidai," that's a -

MS. FISCH: Everybody knows what that is.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes, it's a symbol.

MS. FISCH: And that's where Mr. Hiramatsu teaches.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. So to get into this university in Japan, as you know, you have to study and you have to pass the test. And passing the test at the University of Tokyo in Fine Arts has two sections. It's a written test, which includes English, Japanese literature, math. And after that, you have a test on charcoal drawing, and then the third section will be interview. So in order to pass this charcoal drawing, you've got to study outside of the school. So my mother, she found the person who teaches particularly for the students applying to Geidai because he knows what the Geidai expects to see. So that happened my age of 14 or 15. So the school ends at 2:30; then go to his studio around 3:30 up to probably 6:00. Almost every day, Monday through Friday, I took charcoal drawing.

MS. FISCH: Amazing.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Isn't it amazing?

MS. FISCH: It is amazing at that age to have the kind of-not just the time, but to have the kind of discipline and interest to do that as a teenager is quite extraordinary.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. Well, that's kind of expected to pass the Geidai test to get into Geidai. So what the drawing [was] based on was to draw-look at the plaster costume of Apollo. Or the Brutus. The famous sculpture that you see in Italy, but it's made out of plaster of paris.

MS. FISCH: Okay. So you looked at plaster models, plaster casts, they're called.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. And then we study the forms and mass and the space and all that.

MS. FISCH: Mm-hmm. So you had actually a very extensive art background.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Oh, yes, I did. Two years. I continued it two years. And then I gave it up.

MS. FISCH: And why did you give it up?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Just because it was very common not to pass test to get into Geidai for the first year, and at that time it was very unusual for the woman to go to college to begin with. Maybe one-third of the class went to college. The rest, they didn't. On top of it, if I missed it, if I couldn't get into Geidai, and wait around the next round year, it will be very bad for the woman.

MS. FISCH: Yes. It would be much harder to get in.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. Also, it was bad for marriage.

MS. FISCH: Oh, I see. [Laughs.] It was all-around bad if you didn't make it.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. So I kind of didn't have the confidence that I would pass.

MS. FISCH: So is that why you went to Rikkyo University?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm.

MS. FISCH: And what was that university?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I studied Japanese history.

MS. FISCH: And where is that?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Oh, in Tokyo.

MS. FISCH: And is that a private university or a state university?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It's a mission -

MS. FISCH: Oh, another mission school.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Episcopal. [Laughs.] I don't know, I have -

MS. FISCH: You have a lot of Christian background here.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. So that's where I went.

MS. FISCH: And you studied Japanese history for four years?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Four years.

MS. FISCH: And you graduated when?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: 1964, degree in Japanese history, bachelor of-art?

MS. FISCH: Bachelor of art, yeah.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Art.

MS. FISCH: So how did you get from there into metalsmithing?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Okay. When I was a junior at the university, I wanted to go back to art. I just couldn't understand studying art history and to have it as my profession, as my job, like my mother told [me], to have a career. And my mother thought that I should study Japanese history and become high school teacher, to teach Japanese history. And I didn't see myself being high school teacher.

MS. FISCH: It's interesting how mothers think that's a good idea.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes! [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: My mother thought I should be a high school art teacher.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Really?

MS. FISCH: Mm-hmm.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: She thought it's great. And I asked why. And I said, "I hate high school teacher." And she said, "Well, you should think about it. You have a summer vacation and you don't have to work full day. And also, you get a governmental benefit when you retire."

MS. FISCH: Right, you get a pension.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. So there's no such a great job for the woman. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: So she saw it as a good career for you, but you didn't want to do that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No.

MS. FISCH: So then what did you do?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: But at the same time, I wanted to go back to art again. However, I knew that I could not get into Geidai because it's very, very, very unusual to transfer school in Japan. Still is. So at the same time, I wanted to go away from my parents, because I felt so heavy on my shoulders about their love and my responsibility to them in Japanese way, the Japanese custom. I wanted to go away from them. So I choose to go out of Japan. The reason I chose the United States, because at that time Kennedy was the president of the United States and it was a most exciting country for me.

MS. FISCH: And it was a very appealing time then.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Appealing time, right, for throughout the world, I think. And also at the same time I started buying jewelry. I even told my mother to start to buy jewelry because of preparing for my marriage. What do you call that?

MS. FISCH: Oh, a hope chest.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Hope chest?

MS. FISCH: In this country, in America, it's called a hope chest.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Hope chest.

MS. FISCH: And it's not jewelry; it's mostly linens and that sort of thing.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right, jewelry and clothes and kimonos.

MS. FISCH: Oh, that's what the Japanese buy.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. Right. So I went to jewelry store, but it was not interesting to me at all, design-wise. But one day I went to Maruzen, which is basically a bookstore in Tokyo but also at the same time-at that time they didn't have a craft corner. They also had a little, small case at the menswear section. That's where I saw one ring which I thought it's a great design, which was not regular ring like a ring. It looks like a bird nest, has a hole in the center. So I bought that, and I said to myself, "Maybe that's what I want to try. If there's not much of nice design in Japan, maybe I can go to United States, study much more interesting design and learn technique and bring back to Japan, and then I'll design the jewelry," which was not available at that time, period. And that was a ring made by Mr. Hiramatsu.

MS. FISCH: Aha!

MS. PIJANOWSKI: So I still have one.

MS. FISCH: Did you know that it was by him, or did that name mean anything to you?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, I didn't know, but I knew who made it. And I didn't know who he was. I didn't know he was teaching at the Geidai at that time. But anyway, that was the beginning.

MS. FISCH: When you came to California, you came to Cal State Northridge [California State University at Northridge]. Was it for one year you were there, '65-'66, or were you there longer?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I was there a year and a half.

MS. FISCH: A year and a half?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm.

MS. FISCH: And why did you choose that particular school? Because it didn't have a jewelry department, did it?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: Oh.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: By Fred-Fred-[pause]-[Lauritzen].

MS. FISCH: That's all right. We'll think of it later.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Fred -

MS. FISCH: I don't know who taught there.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No? His name is Fred-he died. Sorry, I have to check on it.

MS. FISCH: That's all right. We'll look at it later. So you knew that before you went?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes, because I arrived in United States to study English for half a year to begin with, so I had time to investigate which school I wanted to go to.

MS. FISCH: Where did you study English?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: In Los Angeles.

MS. FISCH: In Los Angeles.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Los Angeles. And there are a couple I could find at that time. One was Long Beach [California State University at Long Beach].

MS. FISCH: Right, where Al Pine was teaching.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. And also San Fernando Valley. And I didn't know about San Diego [San Diego State University]. You were there already?

MS. FISCH: No, I didn't come-yes, I was. I came in '61.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. So I was there in 1964. But nobody mentioned about San Diego State. So I only could find two schools. And it was said that Long Beach is better, so I applied. But that was the middle of the semester-I mean, middle of -

MS. FISCH: Middle of the year?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: -the year, academic year, I mean federal year. Federal year? No.

MS. FISCH: No, academic.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Academic year.

MS. FISCH: Right. It was in January?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Fiscal year.

MS. FISCH: Fiscal year. Okay.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: So that was January. And it was already full, so I could not get in, so I applied San Fernando Valley [Northridge].

MS. FISCH: So that's why you went there.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: That's where I went.

MS. FISCH: And was that a good experience? Did you learn a lot there?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, I did learn a lot.

MS. FISCH: Well, you must have, because you then applied to Cranbrook [Cranbrook Academy of Art, Bloomfield Hills, MI], which was highly competitive.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: Why did you choose Cranbrook?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Well, because Fred actually graduated from Cranbrook. Also his wife was graduated from Cranbrook, but she was in ceramics. And he suggested me-I asked him what is the best school in United Sates to study jewelry making, particularly jewelry making, not hollowware.

MS. FISCH: Not hollowware.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Of course he suggested Cranbrook because he graduated, even though that's more oriented to the hollowware, which I didn't know. Also he suggested Rochester, RIT [Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, NY], and RISD [Rhode Island School of Design, Providence, RI]. Three schools. So I actually went to three schools to -

MS. FISCH: To look?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: To look, to investigate. Oh, and one more, CCAC.

MS. FISCH: California College of Arts and Crafts in San Francisco.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: Or in Oakland.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. Four schools. I went to those four. I liked Cranbrook the best, probably just because of the -

MS. FISCH: Environment.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: -environment more than anything else. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: But you went to look in January, when it was cold and snowy? That was okay?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: That was okay. And CCAC was terrible because the attitude of the students there didn't appeal to me, because at that time I was more naive then, and they looked more like hippies.

MS. FISCH: Well, they probably were, in that particular era.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: And it was kind of scary to me, so I didn't like it. RISD wasn't really appealing just because of the environment, again. So was Rochester.

MS. FISCH: Well, they're both very urban.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: And Cranbrook is the kind of -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Cranbrook is beautifully -

MS. FISCH: -beautiful environment.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Environment and landscape and everything. So that's how I decided to apply. And I didn't know that I would get in or not, but it probably helped because Fred graduated from there, so he knew Mr. [Richard] Thomas. And also another guy applied at the same time, Richard Dehr. He died a long time ago-

[Cross talk.]

MS. PIJANOWSKI: So we both applied. And I didn't think that I would be accepted, but I was accepted.

MS. FISCH: And what was it like for you at Cranbrook?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Oh, it was terrible. I went there with a little fishing box, and I looked around, and everybody had a huge -

MS. FISCH: Toolbox.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Toolbox, full with the tools. I didn't have any. And also, my work was terrible. It was so bad. And there was another woman accepted at the same time. Two women were the worst.

MS. FISCH: There were only two women, or were there more?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Of our classmates.

MS. FISCH: In your class.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. And then one above us, Ruth Laug.

MS. FISCH: Oh, yeah.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: She was one year ahead of me. And then one more person, who was a nun. So there were only four women among 14 students. And they were doing a great job. So I was going to give up.

MS. FISCH: It must have been very intimidating.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm. It was very difficult.

MS. FISCH: And how did Richard Thomas handle that? I mean, was he -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: He was ignoring me.

MS. FISCH: Oh. He didn't help you; he ignored you.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, he didn't help me at all. He was ignoring. And I think that he thought I was not going to make it. So as me; I was going to quit at the end of the year. But the reason I stayed was that it came to my mind, "Everybody else is doing it, why not me? If I work hard, maybe I can try to catch their level, or maybe I may be one or a couple years behind, but I should reach their level. Maybe I need a little more time. I should try more."

And then at the same time, when I was raising, I think that became like a meditation. So I was there but I wasn't there, and I liked that feeling a lot. I never had it before in all my life.

MS. FISCH: So what did you discover about yourself in this experience?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Experience?

MS. FISCH: Yeah.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: To try to find the maximum of my ability, what it would be. Not that was the goal; that's what I found. Because I never thought about to try to find myself how far I can push myself. Is that discover, you say?

MS. FISCH: Well, yes. When you went there, what were your goals before you went?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: The goal is the same, learning the technique and the design.

MS. FISCH: To be a jeweler?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: To be a jeweler and take all this information with me and go back to Japan.

MS. FISCH: So that was what your goal was.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: That was my goal.

MS. FISCH: And then what you discovered about yourself was quite different.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Was quite different. I'm not trying-pushing myself to see what I can do the best. So that my goal started to change. I mean, the direction started to change. Also, another thing that happened to me was everybody asked me about the Japanese metalworking techniques; I didn't know anything. [Laughs.] I was so embarrassed, not knowing anything. So that was the time to start to look back [at] my country. Before, I was not really thinking what's there, what should I look at. I was just thinking, focusing on jewelry, because that's something new for us. "For us" means for all the Japanese, because we never had such culture to wear rings, to wear a necklace, to wear earrings. We didn't have [it] because of the country being closed so long.

MS. FISCH: When did that develop? After the war?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: The jewelry came after 19-no, after 18-yeah, early 1900s. That was the beginning that we started to know what jewelry [was] about.

MS. FISCH: Because of the Western influence.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Western influence. Before, we had a jewelry, like a comb or like a hair ornament or a belt buckle for the obi, but nothing else. Of course, if you go all the way back, they wore the jewelry because [of] influence from Korea and China, but we had such a long period of time that we're not familiar with what you call jewelry.

MS. FISCH: So who were your fellow students, besides Ruth Laug, the other woman? Who were the men students? Do you remember any of them?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. David LaPlantz.

MS. FISCH: Oh, really?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. And Skip [Millard] Holbrook. He was a dean for the American Indian school in Santa Fe. Bud [Alfred] Green. Do you know who he is? Who else?

MS. FISCH: No. Well, I know that Gene [Eugene] Pijanowski was a fellow student.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I forgot about him! [Laughs.] He was.

MS. FISCH: So we need to mention Gene.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Gene Pijanowski. Right. Also Richard Johnston, who you don't know, and Chris Sublett.

MS. FISCH: Oh, I know him.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. And Ruth Laug and-who teaches at the Houston? What's his name? He teaches at the University of Houston.

MS. FISCH: Val?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Val Link.

MS. FISCH: Val Link.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. He was one year ahead of me.

MS. FISCH: Now, was Gene in your same class?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, he was one year behind me.

MS. FISCH: He came in after you had already started.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes, the second year. So if I had quit after first year, I would have never met Gene. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: You wouldn't have met him.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Oh, going back to Mr. Thomas.

MS. FISCH: Yes?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: When I decided that I'm going to try to push myself to see what I can do myself, he beginning to help me. This was very odd. But he knew that something-he was probably observing me, that I'm not-maybe he felt something from me, the weakness, because as soon as I started to raise a piece, as soon as I felt that kind of sensation of working metal, being there but not there, that kind of sounds like meditation -

MS. FISCH: The meditative part.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: That part. And also, I made a pot that is smoked with the pine needle, and that was a beautiful piece, actually.

MS. FISCH: Was it silver?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It was copper. And it was all black, but it's not oxidized. It has a beautiful, rich quality of black because of being treated with the pine needle.

MS. FISCH: And how did you know to do that?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: That I read in a book. Japanese book. Because of people asking [about] my Japanese technique, I asked my mother to send some books to read about Japanese technique. And not much was available at that time, but a few books talked about how they get the black color on the metal, so I tried. And not only the surface, but the shape of the pot I made was quite nice. And that happened at the end of the first year.

At that point, Mr. Thomas turned around and started to feel close to me.

MS. FISCH: Pay attention.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. And I think he saw some kind of possibility in me which I didn't know, which he even didn't know, but something. And I think Mr. Thomas [was] very good at finding something; maybe not perfectly what, but he senses what's going to be, what happens, what might happen, might be good for other people. And he was very good at combining people in that way, and mixed it.

MS. FISCH: So did he give you special instruction, or he just paid more attention to you and gave you a different kind of direction?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Kind of support.

MS. FISCH: Support.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: But not support by word, or not support by criticizing my work. He didn't criticize anything. But support by just the human feelings. I can't explain it more than that.

MS. FISCH: And between your first and second year, what did you do in that summer? Did you stay at Cranbrook and work?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, that was when I went back to Japan and tried to catch Japanese technique. So I went to work with the master, and that's where I started to learn line inlay and the other type of inlay, like flat inlay, mound inlay, all that. And I brought those techniques back with me. And I was going to write a thesis about the inlay-because it was not done-in a thesis format at Cranbrook library. And Mr. Thomas was more supportive because I brought back something.

And at that point he thought that I should be staying in the United States. And when I mentioned to him that I'm going to-no, no, I asked him once what I should do, because my goal started really changing, changing from taking some techniques back to Japan and becoming a jewelry designer. From that, I started [being] more interested in finding who I am, what I can do. And so I really confused myself, and one day I asked him what I should do, what his suggestion will be; should I go back with my original idea, or should I stay here in the country and try what I can do. And he said to me at that time, "We need you." I said, "What do you mean, you need me?" And he said, "Well, I think you can do something in this country." And still I didn't know what it means, but I think he meant to bring the technique from Japan.

MS. FISCH: To make a contribution.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah.

MS. FISCH: Well, also he may have seen that you would have more opportunity to work in America than in Japan.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Maybe. He didn't say anything. And at that time my language understanding was much, much lower level, so maybe half of what he said I didn't understand. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: Well, I know that he often placed his graduate students not only in teaching positions but in other things in the field in order to help them stay in America or help them to advance their careers. So did he do something like that for you after you graduated?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No.

MS. FISCH: No.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: But I think that that word remained in my mind for a long period of time, what does it really mean.

MS. FISCH: And did you do your thesis on line inlay?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I did.

MS. FISCH: And then the thesis was-I'm not sure how Cranbrook conducted its thesis project, but you had to do experiments and then write about them and then make a piece?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right, and then take photos. So that usually a thesis is that thick. And you have to make it to follow their format.

MS. FISCH: Right, a normal library format.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right, same cover. The thickness doesn't matter, but same format.

MS. FISCH: And was doing the thesis a good experience for you?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: Because?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Because to think again back [to] my culture.

MS. FISCH: It was sort of combining your culture with yourself in a new role, I suppose.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. But also I don't think that I really thought about my culture if I lived in Japan. I started to think about it just because I was away from it and just because somebody asked me. Otherwise I wouldn't have thought about it. And also, nothing to do with the art, but I never thought about my parents more deeply, appreciation. It has been changed a great deal.

MS. FISCH: By being in -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Being in another country, in the United States. Because I left there because it was too much for me, but [in] actuality, how the parents' love is so great, and how deep it is, is something that you never can ignore. And whatever I do, they will accept it, which is great. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: Right. Now, tell me a little bit about Gene Pijanowski at that moment, as a fellow student and how your relationship developed.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Okay. First, I met him- [END TAPE 1 SIDE A.] I liked his eyes. This is very personal, because he had such a warm eye and whole thing, whole body was warm. And I never had met a person who had such a warm feeling. I don't know [if] you understand that.

MS. FISCH: Oh, yeah, I think so.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: You do? It's hard to say. Also, I was surprised to see his work.

MS. FISCH: He came with much more background to Cranbrook.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. Right. The reason why I was surprised of his work was that he's not trying to follow so-called traditional forms or traditional manner. For example, if someone gives you assignment to make a teapot, everybody makes beautiful teapot, Scandinavian style, but he wasn't. He was trying to make-in a way, it's a little ugly side, but it's something that's totally different from how normally people will approach. And that was very surprising for me. At that time I didn't want to take any chance, and I thought that Scandinavian was the best way to design. But again, we were talking about before, that Japanese, they use the new materials and they make good pieces, but that's that. And I always liked to see something-they're trying hard to do something else. I always liked that. And that was the first time I felt that he's trying to do.

MS. FISCH: So you noticed his work right away.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. It's different. And it's hard for most of the people to be accepted. And I knew, too. And I was hard to accept it, but I could-felt that he's trying not to do what normally people do, and I thought it's great.

MS. FISCH: So you responded to his work.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, and I respected that aspect. And other peoples', yeah, sure, it's a great piece, beautiful piece, but it's [been] done. I've seen it in another book; it's just a little different variation of the form; it's the same. But his is -

MS. FISCH: Totally different.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Totally different.

MS. FISCH: So did you start working together as students?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, separate.

MS. FISCH: And you graduated a year before Gene? And what did you do after you graduated?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: After I graduated, I had to wait one year for Gene to finish.

MS. FISCH: Because you had already decided that you would be together?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Oh, yeah. Right. Let's see. When I graduated from Cranbrook, I married him.

MS. FISCH: I see. When you graduated, you married.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: So he still had another year to go.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: So I worked for a couple places. First, I tried to find a job in that area, but I didn't know how, so I opened up the Yellow Pages in "Jeweler" or "Jewelry," and I started from Z, not A, because everybody goes at A. So I thought maybe I should start from the other end. The first person I called, his name was John Zelinski. And I talked to him and he said, "Well, I think you should meet Charles March. You should talk to him. He graduated from Cranbrook. But that's all I can suggest to you. And I don't think I can give you a job, but I would like to look at your work." I brought my work, and he looked at my pieces from his commercial side, and he gave me some suggestions, but I couldn't get the job. So I called another place, and I worked as a buffer for a half-year. But I felt miserable.

MS. FISCH: Being a buffer is probably the worst job of all in the jewelry business.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It's the worst job. And I said, what am I doing here? What did I get the degree for? This is terrible.

MS. FISCH: With a graduate degree, I'm being a buffer. Right.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: This is terrible. And at that time I just decided to meet this guy John Zelinski mentioned to me. And he was working for Little Gallery.

MS. FISCH: Little Gallery?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm. And this was the gallery run by a woman, a Jewish woman named-[Peggy De Salle]. Anyway, she was the one other person who I'd ever known running the gallery just dealing with handmade jewelry at that time. And I'd never seen another gallery just carrying jewelry. But I went to her gallery and then the whole thing is just handmade jewelry. Do you know her?

MS. FISCH: I know the gallery. I don't remember now who owned it.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Anyway, so I met her through this man. And he hired me to work with him, work for him, because he was getting orders from her to make a piece or repair a piece.

MS. FISCH: Oh, I see. So he had his own studio, but he worked through her gallery.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: That's right. That's how he was making living out of that. He also graduated from Cranbrook, and he went to England after Cranbrook and studied and came back. But he never wanted teaching; he only wanted to make pieces, and stuck with her, also. And I worked with him, for him, for a year. And that was a great experience, because strictly just jewelry, nothing to do with hollowware. And that's the time I learned, really, about wax working.

MS. FISCH: I see. So it really increased your skill a great deal.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

[Audio break.]

MS. FISCH: This is Arline Fisch interviewing Hiroko Pijanowski at her home in Honolulu on May 13, 2003, for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. This is disk number two.

Hiroko, after you and Gene married, you returned to Japan. And did you at that moment intend to live in Japan more or less permanently?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: You did plan to do that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: And what did you do when you got back?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I started the one-of-a-kind jewelry business. I run the business.

MS. FISCH: And you started your own business. Is this the business that was called -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Gene, Limited.

MS. FISCH: [They laugh.] Why did you decide to call it Gene, Limited?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Because I felt sorry for Gene. Actually, he cannot work. He cannot come out to the surface of the business, because at that time [in] Japan, nobody wanted to come to Japan and work and earn yen, because at that time, one dollar equaled to 360 yen.

MS. FISCH: And this was in 19 -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Late '60s. So he cannot be involved with this business, right?

MS. FISCH: Officially he couldn't be involved with the business.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Officially he cannot.

MS. FISCH: Because he wasn't a citizen, or because he didn't have the right kind of papers? Or why not?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Because he's a foreigner.

MS. FISCH: Because he was a foreigner.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: But [in] actuality, he made the pieces.

MS. FISCH: He made the pieces. I was going to ask you. You had this jewelry business called Gene, Limited. What did you produce?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: What did we produce?

MS. FISCH: Yeah. What did you make?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: What do you mean? Like, actual pieces?

MS. FISCH: Yeah.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Rings. Mostly rings. Brooch.

MS. FISCH: One-of-a-kind?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: One-of-a-kind, handmade. And at that time it was very unique.

MS. FISCH: And how did you sell them?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Well, luckily, through my father. His patients. [Laughs.] That was the beginning.

MS. FISCH: I see. You just dealt privately with private clients.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. Right. At the same time, Gene was going to-Gene was a student at the Geidai. That's how he could get into Japan, with a student's visa, not a working visa.

MS. FISCH: I see.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Not working visa.

MS. FISCH: He couldn't come in as your husband?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No. How could he?

MS. FISCH: Well, in this country, if you're married to an American, you become -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Oh, like me.

MS. FISCH: Right. But he was married-right.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No.

MS. FISCH: That wasn't allowed.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Because again, Japanese government was very tight about it, so they won't issue green card, even though he was married to Japanese woman. So since Gene was a student at the Geidai, where I met Hiramatsu and he was very supportive, and he introduced me [to] a couple galleries, so then I started to deal with galleries. The famous one at that time was called Vivo, V-o-v-o [sic]. Now they are out of business. But that was one of the big ones. And Mune, M-u-n-e, Kogei, K-o-g-e-i. Mune Kogei. Both located in Ginza.

MS. FISCH: And so you sold your work -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Through them.

MS. FISCH: Through them. And was it successful?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: And it supported you?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Both; the combination of selling [in] the gallery and through the individual -

MS. FISCH: Private clients.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Clients, yes.

MS. FISCH: So you were able to make a living.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: And did you feel comfortable and at home in Japan? I mean, were you happy to be back living in Japan?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No.

MS. FISCH: Why not?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Because mainly I was worried about our future, how Gene can live in Japan, what kind of situation he would be [in], what kind of job would be available for him; if I continue the business, how it's going to support my old age. I was already started to thinking [about] my old age.

MS. FISCH: In your 20s you were worried about your old age.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. And everybody says that's unusual. Is it?

MS. FISCH: Yes. Most people at that age don't think about it.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Don't think about it?

MS. FISCH: No.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I really started to worry about that. And then I found out at that time the woman who doesn't work also can apply for Social Security in Japan.

MS. FISCH: So if you didn't work and you stayed living in Japan, you still could have Social Security.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: So there were some advantages.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: The Japanese government just started, and I read it in newspaper. So I started paying in Social Security in Japan. But still I was very uncomfortable about thinking [of the] future. Also, Gene wasn't that happy.

MS. FISCH: I was going to say, was it hard for Gene to adjust to living in Japan?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Adjust in Japan because of the language; secondly because of his own character. He doesn't like to be-how do I say-looked at by people. He feels that they are looking at Gene because he's a funny guy, funny guy Gene. They looked at him just because [it was] unusual to see foreigner, but he thinks that something [is] wrong with him. He didn't like that.

MS. FISCH: He didn't feel at home at all.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No.

MS. FISCH: Did you live by yourselves or did you live with your family?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: We lived by ourselves. My parents prepared a house for us to live in. And also, I was not kind enough to Gene.

MS. FISCH: I find that hard to believe.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, I was not kind to Gene because I was frustrated at the same time going back to my own country.

MS. FISCH: And not liking it.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Not liking it. And so I did not have a space in myself to try to support Gene. So, more than to support him, I got angry easily. So we had lots of fights, arguments.

MS. FISCH: So is that why you decided to come back to the U.S.?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. Gene said-one day he woke up and he was telling me that he can't stay any longer; he's going back to the United States. "You've got to come with me." I said, "I don't know. I just have to stay and see how I feel, [whether] I want to stay in Japan or I want to go back with you." I told him I don't know. So anyway, he left. And I thought about it and I talked to my grandmother what I should do; I should go back to United States or I should stay in Japan and take care of my parents. And her answer was that if you think that you will be happy there, to go back; don't think about the parents.

MS. FISCH: Well, your parents didn't need you to take care of them at that particular moment, did they?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, but in long term, I should take care of them.

MS. FISCH: Is that the Japanese -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It's the custom. It's the Japanese custom.

MS. FISCH: Custom? And you were the only child.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: So it's your job.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. That's my obligation to them. And probably, I asked my grandmother knowing that's what she will say.

MS. FISCH: You got the right answer.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: So when you returned to the U.S., I think it was in 1972?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm. [Affirmative.]

MS. FISCH: What were your personal goals?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Honestly, I didn't know. But I was making a piece at home.

MS. FISCH: Well, I understand that you had already completed a GIA [Gemological Institute of America] course in Japan.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: And you'd been studying traditional Japanese inlay techniques with a Japanese master.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm.

MS. FISCH: So when you came back to the U.S. with that skill and that information, were you hoping to teach, or were you expecting to work as a studio artist? Or you didn't know.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Okay. I came back to the United States just because of Gene. Nothing to do with the art. But I probably wanted to teach; however, because of the language problem, I thought that I would never, ever get the teaching job to begin with. So I was very negative about getting [a] teaching job. I didn't have confidence to teach, period. But I had to do something, so naturally, going back to make a piece.

And Gene said, "You can work at the school." San Diego State [University].

MS. FISCH: Right. You came-I mean, Gene came to teach at San Diego State. And I thought you came with him, but you actually came after him? He came, and then you came?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, at the same time, but we met. He was living in Midwest after he went back from Japan, and when he got the job, he moved to San Diego and I flew in from Japan to join him.

MS. FISCH: I see.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: So we didn't have a studio at home to work.

MS. FISCH: No. I remember you had a rather small apartment.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: It was very nice, but it was small.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. So Gene said that I can go to school and work, but actually I could not work there.

MS. FISCH: Well, it was difficult because the space was very small and there were a lot of students.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Students around, and I felt very, very uncomfortable. And I cried. I told Gene I just can't work there. How could you work? Gene can work around people. I can't work around the people. I just need quiet, very private space. And so Gene said okay. Luckily, we had two bedrooms, and he said, "Okay, one bedroom will be your studio. That's where you can make a piece." That's how I started making.

So at that time, answering your question, I don't think I really knew what I wanted to be, but I wanted to continue.

MS. FISCH: You wanted to be with Gene, and you wanted to continue with some work.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, I wanted to continue to work, but that's all I knew.

MS. FISCH: And you still had your business, your production or one-of-a-kind business, but you changed the name from-did you change the name from "Gene" to "Hiro"?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm. Hiro, Limited. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: Hiro, Limited. And why did you do that?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I don't know why I did it. Just because Gene thought now I'm back to United States and maybe he felt sorry for me not having any status, like Gene being teaching. So probably he thought that it's good to have my name to be on the public.

MS. FISCH: To have some public presence.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: And how did that go? I mean, did you sell your work through galleries?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes, I did, but it was not enough to make a living, even not to make a living [for] just one person. It wasn't enough.

MS. FISCH: So what did you decide to do?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: But you have to also remember that was just a couple years I tried to sell through the gallery, right? So it wasn't long enough to know if it really worked or not.

MS. FISCH: Was it because you didn't understand how to produce things in quantity or because you only wanted to do one-of-a-kind things?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: A couple things. I didn't know enough about the gallery scene. First of all, I didn't know how to find the galleries at that time. I didn't know how to deal with them. And third, I didn't know how to produce pieces, say my production. I didn't know how. Those three. But I learned something from this.

MS. FISCH: What did you learn?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: How to deal with the gallery.

MS. FISCH: How to deal with the galleries?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. I needed a contract, which I didn't know. I need a contract. Also, I learned that [the] gallery pushes you. They ask you to leave [the] piece as a consignment, then they sell one piece of mine and then ask me to send five pieces more, which means I have to invest more money, but they haven't, they don't have to. But then I couldn't handle [it] any longer. So if they even say, "Send me five more pieces" after selling one piece, I learned that I should not.

MS. FISCH: You couldn't do that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I couldn't do that. I should just replace one, or maybe two at the most.

MS. FISCH: So how many galleries were you working with?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: At that time one is in Seattle, run by a Japanese woman, and I had a list. Maybe three or four. Little Gallery.

MS. FISCH: All in the U.S.?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Seattle, the Little Gallery, a couple more. I don't remember. But I did that for how many years.

MS. FISCH: Well, you started when you were in San Diego, but then Gene moved to Purdue [Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN] -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: To Indiana. I still was doing that till '87.

MS. FISCH: -and so you did work there. Oh, so quite a long -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Six years.

MS. FISCH: To '87 or '76?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, '78.

MS. FISCH: Seventy-eight, yeah.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: So that's six years.

MS. FISCH: Right. And was that successful?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, it wasn't. I mean, successful, what do you mean by successful?

MS. FISCH: Did you feel that it was worth your time to do that, and was it satisfying?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It was worth to do, but it's not satisfying, just because I found out that I cannot make [a] living.

MS. FISCH: So it was being subsidized by Gene's salary?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: Did you also start teaching part-time?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah.

MS. FISCH: Where?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: At Purdue. Adult education.

MS. FISCH: And so that was your first teaching experience.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Exactly.

MS. FISCH: And did that give you some confidence about your ability to teach?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, [laughs] because that's adult education. I think it's different.

MS. FISCH: But it gave you experience, if not confidence.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Because I think that university level has to talk about more -

MS. FISCH: More ideas.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Ideas, designs and histories. But at adult education, you don't have to; you just tell them how to do it and just show them a couple books to give them ideas. And it's not really serious about teaching art. But teaching art at the university, for me, is more serious.

MS. FISCH: So then in 1978 you applied for a job.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I didn't apply.

MS. FISCH: You went to Ann Arbor.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: The job came to me.

MS. FISCH: The job came to you. Well, that's even better. How did that happen?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: How it happened. One year before the U of M [University of Michigan] tried to find a person; Gene and I were invited for workshop and we gave a workshop together. And the man, Wendel Heers, who [was] in charge for metal and jewelry making at that time, I think he was observing both of us, me and Gene. And he knew that they were going to hire someone at that time already. And when the job was open, Gene applied, of course, and then Wendel called me and said, "Are you interested in teaching? I know Gene applied, but you didn't. Are you interested in teaching?" I said, "I'm not sure. I have to think about it. And why are you asking me, even though I didn't apply? Gene applied. Why not Gene?" And at that time I think I was lucky because they needed a woman and they needed -

MS. FISCH: [Laughs.] Right, they needed a woman and a minority.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: -minority.

MS. FISCH: Right.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: So that's why. And they saw me, how I worked with the students. That was acceptable for him, I think. So that's why he called me. And I said, "Give me a couple days." And I talked to Gene, and I told Gene that totally I don't have confidence to teach, period. But Gene said, "Why not? Try it and see your possibilities, and if you don't like it, you can quit anytime. You can quit within a month, you can quit [after] one semester, you can quit one year later, you can quit two years later. See how you can handle it or how you like it." So I said, "Okay." So it's a big support by Gene, pushed by Gene.

MS. FISCH: It was a very brave thing for you to do if you felt so nervous about it.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I was so nervous. I didn't have any confidence, period. So just because of Gene, I took it, and I moved to Ann Arbor.

MS. FISCH: And there was already a program established with this Wendel Heers.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Very small.

MS. FISCH: But there was a studio?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: There was a studio, limited equipment, such as buffing machines, a few torches available, huge electroforming.

MS. FISCH: Oh, that's interesting. That was unusual for the time.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right, because he likes Eleanor Moty. He's fond of her.

MS. FISCH: I see. Eleanor Moty.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Eleanor Moty. So he took her workshop at the Haystack [Haystack Mountain School of Crafts, Deer Isle, ME], and I think he wanted her to teach at U of M, but she didn't want to move, Eleanor Moty. So that's why the job came to me. And at that time I was competing with Mary Lee Hu. She's a woman, right?

MS. FISCH: Right, but not a minority.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Not a minority. That's why I got this job. So I was lucky.

MS. FISCH: You were in the right place at the right time with the right person to see potential. I mean, clearly he must have seen potential in you or he wouldn't have been so supportive.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: [Laughs.] Right. One thing, he already knew our names just because of mokume gane. So he had enough knowledge. And he had never been to any conference. He never thinks that he's a jeweler. He never thinks that he's a metalsmith. He thinks he's a sculptor, and he is. But he has an art education background, a degree in art education. That's how the metal program started at the U of M.

MS. FISCH: As part of art education. That's fairly common, actually.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. And then he felt the time came it's no longer-that he should not handle-it should be handled by someone who really -

MS. FISCH: Is going to pay attention.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. Be in metal, professionally in metal world. So he gave it to me. So from there, I had a lot of support by him, and then I moved to the bigger room and got more equipment and set up new studio.

MS. FISCH: And how did you see that program within the school of art? Did it have a good place in the structure of the school of art at that time, or were you having to think about changing its position, its perception?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I think that's a hard one, Arline, because when I got the teaching job, as you know, I was so nervous and I didn't have any confidence. I didn't have any frame, any goal. It was enough for me to handle myself, whether I can teach or not. [Laughs.] So I don't have any vision. But after I settled, maybe five years later, of course I [was] beginning to think that I needed to develop the program.

MS. FISCH: Right. And how did you develop the curriculum? I mean, you didn't have to build facilities, but you had to expand what was there. But clearly, you had to evolve a whole new curriculum. So what was your vision for that and how did you do that?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: How did I do that?

MS. FISCH: Slowly, or -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Slowly. And I think I was trying to catch [up], to make the studio, equipment-wise or space-wise, to the level at other universities. That was the first goal. Second, my goal was to still [be] following what was going on outside of my school. For example, if they are trying to teach technique, I followed that.

MS. FISCH: Well, during the '70s and '80s, there was lots of interest in new techniques and people.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Techniques. So I followed. And then after that, as concepts came in, I followed from those. So I moved along with what's happening in our field. But then early '90s, I [was] beginning to think that I'm not going to follow.

MS. FISCH: Well, you said somewhere that you changed your philosophy of teaching in 1995, and I wondered how and why.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Okay. Early '90s, that's where I think it started to begin. And '90, '95, around that time, I was very clear what I wanted to do. In 1990, I went to restaurant near the university, and that's where I found a student is working as a waitress, and I really felt bad.

MS. FISCH: You found one of your students working as a waitress.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right, after they graduated.

MS. FISCH: Oh, I see.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Not as a side work. After they graduated, the job they could get was a waitress. And I clearly remembered that I got the job as a buffer, and I said to myself, "Why am I doing this, with all those degrees?" And I felt really sorry for him. You can think about it two ways. It's nothing to do with you, because you finished teaching them, so whatever they do afterwards, it's none of your responsibility. But I felt that I have responsibility. I cannot get a job for everyone, but it's worse to be a waitress after having degree. And that's happening all over the world-or all over the United States. And it was very common. But I really felt bad, and it hurt a lot.

And I started thinking, what was I teaching? What I can do? Why do they come to university? What can I do? And when I was a student, I didn't have to think-I didn't think, actually, about what I'm going to be, I mean what I'm going to do as a job, what kind of job.

MS. FISCH: You weren't thinking about that when you were a student.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No. I just got into it just because I liked it.

MS. FISCH: Right.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: And I liked it; I liked it, and I did it, but I did not worry about a job.

MS. FISCH: Don't you think that's how students still are, that they don't necessarily come -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Now? I don't think so.

MS. FISCH: You think students have changed.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: The students changed.

MS. FISCH: They are looking for -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: For a job.

MS. FISCH: -a job. And they think that that's where their education will lead them?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It is very important. And even now they are thinking of getting a job right after the BFA, not MFA. It's very common at the University of Michigan.

MS. FISCH: Right, because the MFA is for the people who are going to teach, and there are fewer teaching jobs, so there's less incentive.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. And even MFA, they come and get the degree to go to teaching job; and how much is available? And everybody [who] tries to come to U of M, I tell them, "I think you have to know that teaching job is almost dead. You have to know. And a position will be open, but the fact is that a couple hundred people apply. The chance is very little. Is it okay? You want to work your own piece; you want to develop your own art, not expecting to get the job? If it's okay with you, I'll work with you."

MS. FISCH: So you were only interested, then, in working with people who were dedicated to being studio artists?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm or even know that they want a teaching job and knowing that -

MS. FISCH: That they weren't available for most people.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. That's fine. Because I wanted to be honest with them. I just didn't want to tell them, after-sometimes people ask, the students ask what can they do after they get the MFA degree, what kind of job [is] available. "I would like to be a graduate student and get MFA because I want to get a teaching job." Well, sure, that's the goal, but the fact is there's nothing available, and I have to tell them so.

MS. FISCH: So what you changed was how you responded to the students; but did you actually change the curriculum?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: How?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: How?

MS. FISCH: That's what I'm interested in, yeah.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: How? Just because I thought that the students have changed, and do I have to change to teach art? Yes or no? You have a choice. And I choose that at least I should try to teach something that may be possible that they can make a living, studio artist or commercial jewelry, that's all, because teaching is out of the question, for me. So I really focused on how to produce jewelry, semiproduction; how they should deal with a gallery; how they should keep the bookkeeping; but at the same time, how they should approach to make more unusual pieces.

MS. FISCH: So you didn't abandon doing unique work from the curriculum.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I didn't, because you need both. You need to know how you can be a business side, but also you need to have an education background to make a piece that is a little more unique to appeal to the customer.

MS. FISCH: And did you also increase the amount of effort you put into production work for the students? Is that only at the graduate level, or both undergraduate and graduate?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Graduate, it depends on what they want to do. If they want to go that direction, it's fine, I will teach that way. But if someone really wants to focus on artistic, very-what you call -

MS. FISCH: Unique.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: -unique, conceptual pieces, it's fine. I thought I can teach both way[s] at that time, because I have experience a little bit on commercial side. I taught in the past without the confidence, but I had the confidence then to teach more creative side. So I accepted script and followed what they want.

MS. FISCH: And what about the undergraduate students?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Undergraduates, strictly I just decided to go for more practical jewelry making. And the reaction? They liked it. They liked it a lot. I started having only one beginning class; I increased to three at the last, and each class had more than 20 each. And then with advanced class, I only had one; ended up having three, and each had more than 15. So enormous amount of students were going through the studio. Total of students per each term was more than 150 students.

MS. FISCH: And were you the only person teaching?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, I got someone to teach. No, I could not teach everybody.

MS. FISCH: You couldn't do that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No. So then after that, I made another class. It's called Metal for Designers. That means it includes I.D. [Industrial Design] students, also whoever [was] interested beyond jewelry making. So this special course being taught, nothing to do with the jewelry but some kind of metalwork: watch, hollowware-I mean silverware. So that attracted I.D. students. And I.D. students love this class because what they do there is not real; it's drawing and a model, but what they produce at Metal for Designers is [an] actual piece. And that's something that they really liked. So this class became popular. Of course, at the beginning I had just one, at mixed level, but then it's expanded to two levels. So, counting all this, that's how I said there are 150 students.

MS. FISCH: But you must have, then, had help; with the beginning classes primarily?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. Beginning. I taught two beginning classes at the undergraduate level, and then two advanced classes, being taught part-time. So there are five-no, two others, so total of six going on, six classes going on. So always some classes going on, which I found out is-in a way, it's bad because [of] cutting into studio time. But the reason why I think that it probably became popular [was] because I switched to more the commercial ends and switched so that-hoped that they can earn some money, doesn't have to be waitress. Hopefully, someone can be more getting into commercial jewelry and being a jewelry designer or just to get the job as a jewelry designer. So that's how it's expanded.

And then finally the computer came in. And that's something I learned from students, from Metals for Designer.

MS. FISCH: From the I.D. students.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. I.D. students said, "Oh, I'm designing a piece on computer." That I knew. And then he said, "Oh, I'm going to send this design. [END TAPE 1 SIDE B] -by e-mail." I said, "What? Can you send design by e-mail?" I said, "How could you?" And he said, "Well, it's easy, just send it by e-mail. At the other end, they will receive it, and when they receive this design, they will cut the steel, quarter-inch-thick steel, right away." I said, "How could they do it?"

MS. FISCH: Was that laser cutting?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Laser cutting. So I'm always curious about it and I have to find out what it is. And [it] sounded like because the I.D. students [are] doing it, it will connect to jewelry industry for sure, which I didn't know anything about at that time. But then finally I found out it is. But that's where it started. And so going into the computer created more interest to the students, because they want to try it.

MS. FISCH: Right. Well, they're very computer literate, and it makes sense to them to use it as a tool.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. So that's attracted more students to take the classes. So it just moved along. And at the time, '95, I was really definite, definite I was going. I was slowly moving. From early '90s, the direction had been slowly changing, but definitely I just decided, period.

MS. FISCH: And that was a successful decision, I thought.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I thought so, too. And also, I hired Ruth Taubman one semester to teach one class, because she is more knowledgeable than I am about the jewelry, I mean, how to deal with the people, how to make pieces production-wise. She knew a lot. And she shared a lot of stuff with the students, and cost a lot, too, for the students, though, but they did it.

MS. FISCH: Because they had to pay to have the things produced?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes, because they made a model. She did it the same way she does. She sends all these models to New York casting people, let them make a mold, let them cast, get the casting back to the studio, and they finish it. Or stone setting, send out. Everything done by the way she handled it. So that way, I think they learned a lot. And I taught some sections, but I combined like Mr. Thomas did. He mixed people. He-how do I say it?

MS. FISCH: He connected people.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: He connected people. He placed this person needed for this, he placed this person needed for that, and he just directed.

MS. FISCH: He was like a conductor.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Conductor. So I took the same role that he did. So Ruth knows more in this part, and one person knows better the computer, so I put her here. So I kind of directed, and I taught the beginning students because I'm very good with beginning students, encourage them and to make them interested in making things.

MS. FISCH: And also giving them some technical skills, hand skills.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. And they liked me a lot in that way. They wanted me to teach advanced class, but-advanced class I can teach, but as you go above, you have to be more verbal.

MS. FISCH: More verbal?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right, because you have to talk. And I'm not good at it. I can say, "Oh, this is bad" or "This is good," but you have to talk more than that to make sense to them: why it's good, why it's bad.

MS. FISCH: And is that because you feel inadequate in the language?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: I mean, could you do it in Japanese?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I think I can. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: Easier than English.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Easier, much easier.

MS. FISCH: Well, I know that some of your graduates have become prominent as both studio artists and teachers and that you've been an important mentor for them. So why don't you tell me about a few of them? Do you keep in contact with them on a regular basis?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. Let's see. I think there are three different types. One, a teacher. He got the teaching job. And his name is Jim Hopfensperger. He taught at the Philadelphia, and he is the one [who] hired the-what is his name? He used to teach at IU [Indiana University, Bloomington, IN]. The man -

MS. FISCH: Leslie Leupp?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: Is Leslie teaching in Philadelphia now?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah.

MS. FISCH: Oh, I didn't know that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Oh, I don't know now.

MS. FISCH: No.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Still he is? I don't know.

MS. FISCH: No, I don't know.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: But Jim Hopfensperger was teaching there. He got Leslie Leupp-or Leupp. And then he got more interested in administration than teaching. Now he's a dean of department of art at the Michigan State University.

MS. FISCH: Oh! In East Lansing?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: Wow! That's a big coup for a former student.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: [Laughs.] Yeah. Right. And so I saw him before I moved to Hawaii. And that's where he was born, actually.

MS. FISCH: At East Lansing?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. And his father was a dean of a school at the high school. So he must have the blood to be an administrator. So I think that's one type.

The other type is studio artist, like Ruth Taubman, others. She moved to San Francisco selling more like one-of-a-kind, what we call one-of-a-kind. Those, a couple of them, I still keep in contact.

And the third kind is the purely commercial. One was a graduate student. His name is Steve Kretchmer. And he is pretty well-known among those commercial jewelry designers. Is that what you call?

MS. FISCH: Mm-hmm.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Because like JCK [Jeweler's Circular Keystone] has a designer section. Right?

MS. FISCH: Right.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Among that, he's kind of a leader now.

MS. FISCH: And how long ago did he graduate?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Let's see, early '80s. And also Diana Heimann. She also graduated about early '80s. She became a jewelry designer at the JCK Section and she started having a reputation in that field. And if you said "Diana Hermann" or "Steve Kretchmer," almost everyone knows who they are.

MS. FISCH: Well, they're well-known in the commercial world.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. They get a lot of orders, and they are totally making a living out of that.

MS. FISCH: Well, that must be very gratifying, to have successful students.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: And do you see them occasionally as colleagues?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. They write me e-mail.

Oh, another one is like-went to Melbourne.

MS. FISCH: Oh, the young lady who went to Melbourne. What's her name?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Nicole DesChamps. No, excuse me, Nicole Jacquard. I had another student called Nicole DesChamps. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: Okay. And she's at RMIT [Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, Melbourne, Australia] getting a Ph.D., as I recall.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. Yeah. I think she is interested in teaching a great deal, in getting a job as a teacher. And I think she will get it sometime. She had a job, actually, teaching at the Toledo Museum of -

MS. FISCH: Toledo Museum of what, of Art?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm. That's where she was teaching. And she could teach longer, but she just decided to go to Melbourne to get the Ph.D.

MS. FISCH: So are you still currently on a pre-retirement furlough?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, till the end of August.

MS. FISCH: And then you'll be fully retired.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm.

MS. FISCH: How do you feel about that? Or is it too soon to tell? Will you miss teaching?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No. [Laughs.] I had enough teaching. And I think there are more-better people, can teach better than me.

MS. FISCH: So it wasn't hard for you to -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: To leave? No.

MS. FISCH: I think that's terrific.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm.

MS. FISCH: You've always taught workshops and intensive short courses around the country and even abroad. How does that teaching differ from university teaching?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: [Pause.]

MS. FISCH: It is different.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It is different. I don't know how to answer that question. How it's different?

MS. FISCH: Yeah.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Just because it's such a short time.

MS. FISCH: And it's very focused on one -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Focused on one thing. So it's totally different.

MS. FISCH: Do you like doing those, or are you tired of those?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I used to like it, but I'm tired of doing it anymore. And I think also people-I mean, the workshops that I have been giving, inlay or basically Japanese technique, I think that they are not really interested.

MS. FISCH: The interest has gone away now.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It's gone away, I think.

MS. FISCH: You think so?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah.

MS. FISCH: It will come back, of course.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I think it will come back. I think one reason is that just because it's time-consuming and they don't like it. They like some kind of quick results.

MS. FISCH: Just in general, you think students are-students, or workshop people? I think workshop people are more interested in -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Quick result. Easy, but quick and good results. Without much effort. And I'm sorry, I'm not really attacking anyone; I'm not attacking Komelia Hongja Okim. I like her and I like what she has done. But that's what they like.

MS. FISCH: To do something like kuem boo.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Kuem boo. But if I teach them, I'll go for traditional flat inlay. Takes a long time, and result is not good because you need to practice. And that isn't suitable for American workshops.

MS. FISCH: Right, which are often just two days, if you're lucky. [Laughs.]

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. So I think that's the reason. But they will get tired of that soon. They want to do more.

MS. FISCH: So would you consider accepting an invitation to do a workshop or not, now?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, not now.

MS. FISCH: It's a lot of preparation.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. Maybe I may go back, but not now. Like I mentioned to you, I'm just exhausted from everything at this moment. [Laughs.] I just want to live in totally different world.

MS. FISCH: Okay. Do you want to talk a little bit longer?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Sure.

MS. FISCH: Research has always been a significant part of your teaching and your art, so in the early years, certainly this research centered on traditional Japanese metalworking techniques. And what drew you to this area of investigation?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: A couple reasons.

MS. FISCH: Okay, tell me.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, a couple reasons. One, just because I'd been asked about Japanese technique. I didn't know and I [was] embarrassed. I thought I should know a little. That's the beginning. But secondly-how do I say this-the Scandinavian design was at top at that time, everything smooth, no surface decoration, no texture.

MS. FISCH: And no color.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No color. So I always-my basis always is try to go opposite, like I looked from Z in the phone book, not A.

MS. FISCH: Right.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Same idea. So I looked at the smooth, clean, beautiful, and thought, why not texture or surface decoration, or to color the metal? That's full in Japan I found out. So that's two things.

MS. FISCH: Right. And how did you pursue the subject? I mean, how did you get your information?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: How did I get? Well, I saw a piece-oh. Luckily, one of my father's patients was in metal. His name is Tateo Uno, U-n-o. Mr. Uno. His uncle was a national living treasure. But Mr. Uno was a patient of my father, so my father connected to him. That's how I learned first. But then I learned that if I approach some craftsperson who I'm interested, they may have a chance to teach me. So that's where it began. I went to see the show in Japan. I wrote a note on whose work I liked, what kind of technique that I didn't understand. I wrote it down, and on the catalogue, behind the catalogue it has the name, addresses, and phone numbers.

MS. FISCH: And you simply went and talked.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Simply called and asked.

MS. FISCH: And were you well received?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: For the most part.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Most part, yeah.

MS. FISCH: And people were willing to -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: To share their knowledge.

MS. FISCH: -share their knowledge. That's unusual, isn't it? I mean, I've always thought that the Japanese craftsman was rather reluctant to share his information or his knowledge.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Among their own people.

MS. FISCH: And you're not considered -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I'm not Japanese.

MS. FISCH: Aha.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Because I came from United States and married to an American.

MS. FISCH: And even though you speak Japanese, they don't think of you as Japanese.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. And it doesn't have any danger for them that I will stay there and I will steal their technique and start using it. They don't have any fear for that, so that's okay. And also at the same time, they have a great confidence that even though they teach me for one semester or one year, they knew that I'm not going to be good at it, because that's going to take a long time. So they have a confidence.

MS. FISCH: You were not a threat.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No. So in that sense, they are kind.

MS. FISCH: And when you were doing that, did you take photographs?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I did.

MS. FISCH: And they let you do that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: And so how did this kind of research influence your own work, and how did it influence your teaching?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Okay. It influenced to see how they approach-to make things, how they approach to act to their own work. [Pause.] You don't understand me.

MS. FISCH: But how did what you learned influence your teaching? Did you bring that information back to your students and share the technique and the photographs?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, of course I did.

MS. FISCH: And how did you feel about that? Did you think that that was a way of broadening the world of metalsmithing, or was it, in a way, threatening to the Japanese?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It's not threatening for the Japanese. I think that it helped to share my knowledge with American metalwork artists. And that's what Mr. Thomas saw in me, which I didn't know at that time, but then I knew what he meant when I started doing it.

MS. FISCH: How did it impact your own creative work? I mean, when you would learn these new techniques, would that then impact your work when you came back?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Mm-hmm, it did. But at the same time, I didn't stay with what I learned. For example, I learned inlay, but I always want to push, so I pushed it. And the result was the twisted wire.

MS. FISCH: That made it look like fabric.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. But that came from line inlay. [Break.]

MS. FISCH: This is Arline Fisch interviewing Hiroko Pijanowski at her home and studio in Honolulu on May 15, 2003, for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.

This is disk number three.

Hiroko, there were some other things you wanted to say about teaching, so we'll go back a little bit.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Oh, teaching. Okay. Because I mentioned that I carried 150 students per term. That was wrong. Because I thought about it. And I was having six classes, and each class should have 20 enrolled in the school, so that means 120, plus extra. There's always beyond 20, because they wanted to take the class and they say, "Please, please, I want to get in," so I always took maybe five extras. So probably not quite 150, but between 130 to 135.

MS. FISCH: And that was every semester you had that many?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Every semester.

MS. FISCH: And did you do this all by yourself?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No.

MS. FISCH: No. You had other help.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I taught two beginning classes, and intermediate and advanced taught by one of the former students who lived around the area, and then two Metals for Designers taught by another graduate student, I mean who graduated from U of M but lived around the area. So that was six.

MS. FISCH: So it was a very busy program, very busy.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It was a very, very busy program. That's what I mean; I don't understand why this new dean tried to cut it down, understand why he did it, he had to. Now they only have two classes. Can you imagine?

MS. FISCH: That's a huge drop.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I know. Just one beginning class and then one advanced class. From six down to two.

MS. FISCH: Right. How do you feel about that? Angry?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Sad. Not angry, but I'm sad because it took quarter of a century to-see, I start to cry. It took me a quarter-century to build up to that high enrollment and that it was popular, so that that said something to the students. And dean didn't see that.

MS. FISCH: Didn't understand that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Didn't understand.

MS. FISCH: Or didn't think it important.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No. Well, to me, because I changed the direction, to me jewelry design is part of the I.D. design, and of course, I.D. design people doesn't think that jewelry design is I.D., so there is a friction. And dean didn't see that, but if you go to the conference for I.D., there are groups who do jewelry design, and they're always kind of pushed in a corner. The same situation. But it could be within that category, and I want it to be.

MS. FISCH: And in some ways, that's probably why jewelry design-commercial jewelry design-is so poor, because it doesn't have a prominent place in education.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, it doesn't.

MS. FISCH: And that's really sad.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It's sad. And I'm really willing to do it, to dig in more, to find out about those I.D. group[s], how jewelry designer[s] are situated, how they go by, and how the students can go to these kind of conference and see, and how I can connect to the industry. I always had a vision what I'm going to do, plus because I saw the students like it. If I didn't see that, of course, I stop.

So another reason is that because of that, I went to the computer because it is connected.

MS. FISCH: Well, let's talk a little bit about your research, which was very extensive, into the use of computer technology. How did you start?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: How did I start? It was because of my lack of knowledge. One day my student said-didn't we talk about it? Maybe not-over the phone, [not] the microphone. One day the I.D. student actually said to me that he is designing a spoon with a computer. And that was nothing new to me as knowledge. Then next sentence he said, "Then I'm going to send this by e-mail." To my knowledge at that point, e-mail, you can send only letters.

MS. FISCH: Not drawings, right.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: So I said, "How could you? How could you send a drawing by e-mail?" And he said, "Well, I can do it, anyway. I can show you." I watched how he does, and surely the mail went through. And I said, "What happens [at] the other end? Whoever receives [the] drawing, what are they going to do about it?" And he said, "Well, they can hook it to the machine, and they can cut quarter-inch steel very easily and very inexpensively. If you cut one piece or 100 pieces, price is the same." So that was very, very surprising and new to me, and I saw something behind it, because it was related to metal. If he said "plastic" or he said "wood," maybe I didn't -

MS. FISCH: You wouldn't make the connection.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: -it didn't hit my mind, but that was because it was steel. So that's [where] it began. I thought that I should find out what's really going on. If they can cut the steel, quarter-inch-thick steel, must have something beyond.

MS. FISCH: Was this being cut by laser?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Laser. So that's where it began.

MS. FISCH: Was this a combination of university and commercial, or could you do it all on the university campus?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes, engineer.

MS. FISCH: It was through the engineering department.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: They were more advanced [than] commercial jewelry, of course, so they had all kinds of equipment that I didn't know that they have such set-up. But anyway, after I started to investigate this, engineering had a whole bunch of stuff, and they are willing to work with art just because what they do, the forms are so boring. And when we went there with the slides of what we can do, probably, after-well, after I got into it, I applied for the grant and I got some few monies to start. And I made all kinds of mistakes to finding out the right kind of software.

MS. FISCH: So this was a grant from the university.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Grant from university. At the same time-I don't know why, but I hit always a good timing. At the same time, the university are encouraging the school of art and design to [get] involved in the technical aspect, which mainly was computer, so they had a huge amount of money, but nobody was applying.

MS. FISCH: Well, artists in general, I think, were very afraid of that kind of technology.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, against the computer. So no one applied. [Laughs.] So I got a big chunk of money. And everybody laughed at me or said to me, cheek in-no, tongue in cheek-

MS. FISCH: Tongue in cheek?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: -said, "Oh, you are so great. Think about it, your age, and computer is high tech and steps are so steep."

MS. FISCH: The learning curve is so steep.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Learning curve, yes. Anyway, I said, "How could you say? You don't know. You just think so, or maybe you cannot do it. But I try. If I cannot do it, it's fine. But I have to try anyway."

MS. FISCH: And what year was this?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: That was-when was it-19-I have to get my records.

MS. FISCH: Nineteen-eighty-something or '90-something.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Nineteen-ninety-six, '97?

MS. FISCH: Somewhere in there.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Nineteen-ninety-seven, '98, around that time. And so not knowing anything, of course it was difficult-what kind of software I needed to do, what kind-I knew that I have to have PC. Mac won't do it.

MS. FISCH: Oh, really?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No.

MS. FISCH: Oh, I thought Mac was the computer of choice for-maybe that's graphic design.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, it's true with Mac some of the software can make three-dimension, but basically it's good for architects. So you can build something 3-D, but its aspect is always architectural, so it won't fit for the jewelry.

MS. FISCH: I see.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Not small detail, the software.

So that's where it began. But luckily, one of my former students, I also forgot his name -Ross Carl-he got into commercial jewelry and worked for different firms. And I was so lucky, too; he contacted me somehow, for some reason, and we started to talk about it. Of course, my priority interest was the computer, and I mentioned it to him. He said, "Oh, sure, I do it. I am playing with it." When I asked him what kind of software he was using, he said Arias, which is very expensive software.

MS. FISCH: A-r- -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Arias. A-r-i-a-s. Which the movie industry uses. And it used to be very, very expensive, like $100,000, 10, 20 years ago, but came down to $10,000. But still for the university level, as equipment, this is really very expensive equipment. And he said, "Yeah, sure, I can show you how it works." So I went to Chicago and looked how he operates. That was the beginning. And then he said, "I'll take you to the company, how I can e-mail the design and how the company [that] receives it, what they produce afterwards." So I saw the, sort of, whole- whole sequence. So I got some idea how that works. And at the same time, luckily, looking at some magazines, I found an ad talking about some software for the jeweler. So I contacted the company and it sounded like it's a good one. It was not cheap. That was, like, $5,000 for each software. But I had grant money. I bought a PC. And then this technical research money was coming into the school of art, so I'm the only one applying and I'm always getting it, so ended up getting $60,000 total.

MS. FISCH: Wow.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: So, slowly I build up, buying more PC, buying very simple prototyping machine, and I started it. But at the same time, after we made a few, we took samples, we took slides to the engineering [department] at the university, tried to connect with much more-use their facilities. And they were very interested just because of the form.

MS. FISCH: You were doing something interesting.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. Theirs was boring, like a box and some boxes in the boxes. But they cannot create a form like we were doing, but then I was going to suggest using our form to make the software at the engineering school.

MS. FISCH: To develop software to do the forms you were showing them.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. So I connected these links. So we were ready to start, and they showed what they are doing somewhere else, something else. It's amazing. It's a lot of materials, lots of techniques, has a lot of potentials for jewelry. But that's -

MS. FISCH: Cut off?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Cut off, because I'm too tired.

MS. FISCH: Right. And I was going to ask you, can you continue to use this sort of technology for designing now that you're not at the university? I mean, do you have access to -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I don't. No. Actually I can't, because I have my own software, and I can send this e-mail to the factory who produce the model for me, and I can get this model back to me, and I can send this wax to the commercial jewelry-casting company.

MS. FISCH: So you can, in fact, do it.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Huh?

MS. FISCH: You can, in fact, do it.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I can do it, but the situation now I am, I can't. So without the university's equipment, it's impossible for me. Just the cost of doing this process, it's not cheap.

MS. FISCH: When you do things like that, my experience has been, there are always minimums like set-up charges and so on.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, they don't.

MS. FISCH: They don't do that?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: They don't have minimum. There's not much a minimum. And also, those industries who receive the designs are basically from, like, car industry or the I.D. industry, or parts for something, so it's not interesting. But the jewelry is something to really intrigue them, so they are really getting excited about it.

MS. FISCH: So they tried to help.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, they tried to help. So if I try to negotiate, they will come down in the price, of course, because they are hired by the company; they are not making money from making models. You know what I mean? They have a salary working for this company, not going by how many orders they will get.

MS. FISCH: I see. So it doesn't matter to them that they do a few.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Or cut down the cost. So that was good.

And finally, I researched into the company who makes this very expensive rapid prototyping machine, which does everything, three-dimensional form, everything that you'd like to do, because I noticed that they are changing the models almost every year. So I started thinking, what are they going to do [with] the older models, people who bought it already? Big companies, they always buy new things or the university buys the newest things, like in engineering [department]. So I called the company and I asked where they sold those.

MS. FISCH: The ones they were throwing away.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. So they told me where they sold to, and actually U of M bought two of the new machines because that's the best kind within that context. Of course, [the] university won't give away, but gave me [a] couple names of the companies which were in California. And I called the head, or the president, and told him my situation and circumstance, "And I'm sure you will buy new equipment, but you have good old ones." And they said, "Well, as soon as it gets old, with the tax-

MS. FISCH: The depreciation.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: -"depreciation, we won't use it." So I said, "Do you think you can donate it?" and they are glad to do that.

MS. FISCH: Yes, because it's a tax deduction-they get some money back from their taxes.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, right. So that's how I got one. So I had the whole thing set up. Isn't it sad -

MS. FISCH: And now you had to walk away.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: -that the dean was not -

MS. FISCH: Not interested.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I mean, he was interested to taking all this machine away from me and giving it to I.D.

MS. FISCH: Did anybody at I.D. know how to use it?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah.

MS. FISCH: Oh, they did.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: One professor said yes, but I don't think he knew. I think it was a big lie-he had a big mouth.

MS. FISCH: [Laughs.]

MS. PIJANOWSKI: This is the guy [who] came from England. I don't think he knew.

MS. FISCH: Well, a lot of the research that you did, you presented in a paper at the SNAG [Society of North American Goldsmiths] conference. And what was your idea there? Why did you do that?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Really just for-you're talking about the computer?

MS. FISCH: Yes. Didn't you give a research paper at a SNAG conference?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes, I did ["A Look Into the Future: The Implementation of Computer-Aided Design and Manufacturing for Metalsmiths." 1999, St. Louis, MO, Conference; presented with Nicole Ann DesChamps of Waterford, MI]. The reason why I did it?

MS. FISCH: Yeah.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Why [do] you ask such a question?

MS. FISCH: Well, because in a lot of cases, people develop things and they don't want to share.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: They don't want to share?

MS. FISCH: Right.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Why? That's odd to me.

MS. FISCH: Because they want to keep it to themselves, or they feel they've done all this hard work and maybe they don't want to just make it easy for somebody else.

But you wanted to do this paper. And was it well received? I mean, did you get a lot of questions about the information?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes and no at the same time.

MS. FISCH: Or was it too much above the heads of most of the audience?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I think that's one thing, that it was too much over their head. Secondly, the way we presented was not great. I will do it different way second-another time. I noticed that there are parts where some people wouldn't-couldn't-didn't understand. But we thought we wrote a paper for the people who don't know anything about the PC, who don't know anything about even how to send e-mail, because that's how I was. When I started to see this student's process, I didn't know how to e-mail. I never did. I didn't understand e-mails, period. So I think that was 1997, I said. So five years ago, I never touched it; I avoided PC or Mac, whatever computer, just because same reason that maybe the people who belonged to SNAG has the same feeling. They are, first of all, afraid. Secondly, they don't see much use of it for their work, particularly. I was the same way. But just because of the routine that I went through, I knew how other people feel. So the basic idea that I had when I was writing [the] paper was to write [for the] person who doesn't know anything about even e-mail. So I thought that's down to the base; but still, when I presented it, I think half the people didn't understand it.

MS. FISCH: It wasn't clear?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It wasn't clear. Partially that's my fault. The presentation wasn't really clear enough. If you read the paper, I think everybody can understand, because right after I wrote that paper, I submitted [it to] about 10 or 12 people to read it before I presented at SNAG: the level of people who already know everything, to look at whether it's wrong or not; the second level is the people who knows a little bit but not much of all the details; the third group are people who doesn't know anything about it, about the operation of CAD/CAM [Computer-aided Design/Computer-aided Manufacturing], period. So the most important part was the reaction from these people, what they said, what did they comment.

MS. FISCH: What they understood.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. So if those people understood, I thought if I presented at SNAG, would understand. So I rewrote it many times, until those level of people understands.

And also the reason I presented is because it's coming. It's coming to our place, to our -

MS. FISCH: To our profession.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: -world, yes, sooner or later, probably soon. I don't know, five, ten years. As soon as I started to play with software, I really felt it's a tool. Everybody says it's a tool. Until I started using it, I didn't understand why they are saying the computer is one of their tools. It is tool. Because I felt here I am using a saw; I don't have to. Here I am building with wax tools; I don't have to do that.

MS. FISCH: A machine can do that for me.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Machine can, the computer designing can do, but just the vision or just not using the hand tools, but eyes and my fingers are part of the tool. So it is true; it's really true. And then I'm sure the commercial industry will get into that more now, more so.

MS. FISCH: Well, don't you think they already have -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: They already have. But that was still partially just like using for setting the-channel setting stones, or just the bit, and they were starting to produce the way I ended up doing it in industry, but still it's expensive. But the cost is going to go down someday anyway, as with anything else. In the beginning is always high. As it goes down, then progress more in an easy way.

MS. FISCH: Right. And I know that you involved students in this research.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: And I thought that that was certainly a smart thing to do, because in some ways they're more comfortable with the technology.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: But also it was a way of mentoring students -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: -to prepare them for the future.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: And was that your idea as well?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. Plus the fact I'm very limited within the idea, within the skill. The young kids, like you mentioned, they live with it, so they learn much, much faster than I do. They can play around faster than I do. So I thought that it's very helpful between students and me.

MS. FISCH: And somewhere I read that at some point you proposed to teach high school students during the summer under a grant program.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: And did that actually happen?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, I didn't get the grant.

MS. FISCH: You didn't get the grant. I thought it was a wonderful idea.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I thought so, too! I didn't get that. I really wanted to.

MS. FISCH: And it was to continue this CAD/CAM research but at a younger age level.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: Well, that's too bad.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: That's too bad. [Laughs.] I don't have the time. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: Right. But you're still interested in pursuing this for your own work now.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: I mean, when you get back to it, you will work in this direction, you think?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. And also could I talk a little more about this? The reason why I presented to SNAG? Another reason, not just because it's coming. Another reason is that then we really have to think what the handmade is or what the machine can do, because the machine almost all can do, through my experience. But then there is some level or some things that machine really cannot do. So that's something, the comparison of what -

MS. FISCH: The interface between -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Between machine, between handmade. So I felt that the handmade can be much more critical in the future. We really have to think if you are going to produce one-of-a-kind jewelry. I would.

MS. FISCH: That's the area for the handmade. [END TAPE 2 SIDE A

.]

MS. FISCH: Now, you also did another research project, which I didn't know about before, using LED [light-emitting diodes] lighting.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah.

MS. FISCH: Tell me about that. I don't know anything about that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: [Laughs.] That came after.

MS. FISCH: That came after. Yes, I realize that. What is the project?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: That was a guy, I think-Rodemer.

MS. FISCH: Was he a professor?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes, he used to teach at Chicago. We hired him. Michael Rodemer. We hired him, kind of pulled him out from Chicago and brought to University of Michigan, just because he was familiar with the computer a lot. And he had this -

MS. FISCH: LED?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: -LED lights, little tiny ones. And he showed me what he has and what it would do. And he started asking me the question whether I can make the jewelry with it.

MS. FISCH: I mean, those light-emitting diodes were used in jewelry quite a long time ago -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: -in a very primitive way, I suppose. So is this a new technology, or simply a new application?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Application. To me, new application. And that was a challenge again for me, what I can do. Because I've seen jewelry made out of this light, but it wasn't really attractive to me.

MS. FISCH: It was like wearing a little sign.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. And I thought it was stupid then to use it as a sign. Or there was-some girl is doing it, but her design was not the level of what I think is jewelry. I mean, the material is too raw. It should be -

MS. FISCH: It wasn't refined enough, not sophisticated?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, no. No, not enough. So that's what I tried to do. And I talked to him and said, "Sure, maybe we can team up. And you do a part"-what you say-electronic parts, because I don't understand at all how that works. "I will make a piece, I make the parts, and if I do this, how can you connect and how can you light up, how many and how?" So he got so excited, and that's where I started out. And my idea was to produce the parts by computer, design with the computer, produce by this prototype thing, and then use his lights and connect. And I made some samples, and that was stopped because I [was] really tired.

MS. FISCH: I didn't see any of those samples. You didn't show me any of those.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, I have some.

MS. FISCH: I'd like to see them. So, when did you do this? This was very recently.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, about two years ago. And then I said to him, "Why don't we take a patent on this, introducing jewelry? I think there's a market." And he started to research how he can get the patent.

MS. FISCH: That has to go through the university.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. And so he started out with the university, and the university was very helpful and started doing it, and I think were still doing it. And he got busy, and now we moved to Hawaii, but still we can go back and -

MS. FISCH: Well, the patent process takes quite a long time anyway to go through the courts.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. I think we applied, anyway, because we had the samples.

MS. FISCH: I mean, the disadvantage of applying through the university is financial.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right.

MS. FISCH: They get the financial benefit. But I think it's interesting to pursue that line of investigation of applying for a patent, because you might in the future have another idea that might do that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. But I thought that's another way that the students can pursue, too; if they try to get something going on, team up, and then go through this and try to apply [for a] patent. Doesn't mean that they would get it, but that's another way that they can think of.

MS. FISCH: And it happens all the time in the tech industry, so it's not so out of line of thinking that it could be done.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. And this has happened in the school of art. He is a professor at the school of art, doesn't do it with engineering [department], so that's what I thought is unique, to be done something within art!

MS. FISCH: Right. Are there any joint appointments between engineering and art?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No.

MS. FISCH: I mean, I think that's another interesting approach done in some cases.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I think so, too.

MS. FISCH: I think MIT, for example, does some of those kinds of joint appointments, as I understand it.

So, just to go back over this, you've been fortunate to receive many grants over the years to support both the research and the creative aspects of your work. Did the university support your buying the gold to make the models and so on?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes.

MS. FISCH: They did?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Not the gold and silver. They rejected that part because that is something that has a marketable value.

MS. FISCH: Well, and you own it, and so that was always the answer I got also, that we're not going to buy you precious metal materials, because it has recycle value.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. But that was okay. I was willing to use my own money. I always end up using part of my money anyway for any grants, and I didn't mind it at all.

And if I can go back and answer your question, usually people try to keep it in because they work so hard and it's yours. But my standpoint is, probably because I was in an academic situation, that in academic situations, you're supposed to share everything. Teaching is something to share something that you have, everything.

MS. FISCH: And so the research is also meant to share.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. And also that if I share what I know with a student, the student is supposed-the hope is the student will progress more than what I -

MS. FISCH: Take it further.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right, take it farther. That's the purpose of education. So that's why I don't mind to share any of the knowledge or any of the research to anyone.

And another reason, the last reason was that I'd been always presenting or always sharing the knowledge on the Japanese technique, traditional Japanese technique. I wanted to do this because I knew that my retirement is coming soon, so the last presentation should be something [that has] nothing to do with Japanese, nothing to do with tradition. So the newest technique, that was computer, for me.

MS. FISCH: And I know that you received all this financial support for your research projects, and I guess this is an indelicate question, but was the fact that the money was available a stimulus for you to think about how to use it, or was it only a means to do what you already wanted to do?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I think it's both.

MS. FISCH: I mean, did the university, did the art department put pressure on you, on the art faculty, to do research?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, of course they do. They did. They do now, too. But that doesn't mean that -

MS. FISCH: But to do research in technology? I mean, was the art department interested in that kind of research?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: They did.

MS. FISCH: Yeah. I always got the impression from talking with you that there was a certain amount of push in this direction.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yes. They always pushed to research. They always pushed to exhibit. They always pushed to teach well. They always pushed to have high enrollment. So I take everything seriously, so I tried my best. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: Well, I think you also figure out-you have a good way of understanding how to organize things to take advantage of what's available. And I think that's also very unusual; many artists don't want to change the way they work, and so they ignore all those possibilities. And I think you've taken advantage of those possibilities in a way that's quite unusual.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Oh, really?

MS. FISCH: Well, if it was usual -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It's me.

MS. FISCH: -there would be more research going on. At the moment, the only other person doing research was Stanley Lechtzin at Tyler [Tyler School of Art, Temple University, Philadelphia, PA], who started very early, and maybe Joe Wood at the University of Massachusetts [Massachusetts College of Art, Boston, MA], but I don't think-I mean, Stanley has approached it very seriously over a long period of time, but I don't know that Joe Wood has, other than an interest in his own work. I don't see him communicating that in the same way that you did.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: But I thought that he had a workshop ["Work and Inspiration on Progress." 2000 SNAG Conference] on PC at the Boston -

MS. FISCH: Yes, at the Boston conference. But I don't know that he teaches it regularly at the school of art.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: You know what? I think there's difficulties, because you have to have a certain amount of PCs, a certain amount of software, and that becomes very expensive.

MS. FISCH: You have to have a certain amount of money to do this.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. You do.

MS. FISCH: And so small art schools probably are not going to have that.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No. I could have five computers and three softwares, but I wanted to get more. So I made a deal, which didn't go through. This was the dean that I hate. Then I couldn't run the class, just teaching computer design, and then I already had machine ready to go for the students. And of course one was not enough, but since I made a connection to the engineer[ing department], they said that we can use their equipment any time we would like to. So I could run the class.

MS. FISCH: Well, I think that's the huge advantage of being within a university system.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: A university. So that's why-Joe Wood may want to teach, but the situation doesn't allow him to do.

MS. FISCH: So are there any other research projects of that kind that I don't know about?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: In terms of?

MS. FISCH: I mean, you told me about the CAD/CAM and you told me about the LED. Is there anything else in that arena?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: You mean technical.

MS. FISCH: Yeah. That you pursued? Or pretty much those are the two major things?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, because PC was-I mean, it's a huge, really new area for me, because I feel I started from scratch, not knowing or going to schools to find out.

MS. FISCH: And did you take lots of courses or -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No, none.

MS. FISCH: You didn't.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: None.

MS. FISCH: You wanted to be-I'm sure you wanted to work much faster than a course would let you do.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: [Laughs.] Right. So I didn't know anything about how to run a computer. I didn't know that I had to have log-in name. I didn't know that I had to have password. So that's where I started to work with PC. Bang! Before the e-mail. Bang! And then I had to work with the three-dimensional form, not the writing, which is okay. I don't think that it helped anyway. So in the beginning, I was awful. I was so slow. But those people who are [in] industry are [a] great help. It's amazing. They are so much willing to help, so they give us so much information. And that's how I learned so fast what's available. Of course, my curiosity was very strong. I had to find out right away, next day. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: [Laughs.] So your learning curve went even faster than it might otherwise have.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah. Right. Not maybe learning skill with the computer or software, but to knowing what is going on outside was fast, very fast.

MS. FISCH: Knowing what was available for you to use.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Right. It's like a vine. If you pull one, comes the next. And if I pull this, comes out the other leaf. So if I pull out the other one, another vine comes out, and then pull this one, another leaf, the second leaf from the second vine. Something like that.

MS. FISCH: So it's cumulative.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Yeah, it's very fast. I was amazed. I don't know how that happens. Really fast.

MS. FISCH: Do you think you have-I mean, you must have the right mind-set to acquire this-to understand this information. I'm not sure everybody does have that kind of mentality. I mean, it's true you didn't know anything at the beginning, but it sounds to me like you learned very quickly, and you understood what you were looking at and learning. And that's, maybe, not so easy.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I don't know. [Laughs.]

MS. FISCH: I think that was really interesting.

Well, let's talk a little bit now about your artwork, your creative work.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Okay.

MS. FISCH: You always maintained an active studio production. And how did that relate to your teaching and research? I mean, did you do your studio work separately from your teaching, or was it that they all, kind of, mixed together? Maybe it's different for different periods.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I think it's separate. Oh, no. No, I can't say that. Some things are together. For example, mokume gane, I did in my studio, but I did also work with the students, collaborated with the students.

MS. FISCH: Well, but that's sort of a process thing. I guess I'm really talking about your private creative work and how that related to your teaching. Were they completely intertwined, or did your private studio work involve other personal interests that you didn't share with the students? [Pause.] I mean, do you feel yourself as both an artist and a teacher, or do you feel yourself as a teacher who makes art?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I think I am the artist who makes art my own and also I'm a teacher.

MS. FISCH: So those two things are separate but parallel.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Separate. Parallel. It's always parallel. But it's separate. I don't mind to show them what I'm doing, I don't mind to talk about it to them, but I do mind that they copy my work. That's a no-no.

MS. FISCH: How did you prevent that?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: I didn't show much of my work. Because if I start to show it, they will start to copy. Two reasons. One group of students think it's great. Another group of students thinks that if they make similar to my work, they might get a good grade. I don't like that, period. And I don't think that's good, both aspects, because that's not my intention to teach.

MS. FISCH: You don't want to make disciples.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: No.

MS. FISCH: So how would you describe your creative work? Are there separate categories, like jewelry and sculpture and hollowware and design? Are they separate in your mind or is there a, sort of, all-encompassing character to your creative work?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: That's a difficult question. I think it's changed by the year.

MS. FISCH: Yes. I don't know that it necessarily is all the time consistent, but I guess -

MS. PIJANOWSKI: Overall?

MS. FISCH: Overall.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It's all in the one pot.

MS. FISCH: You don't see them as, "If I make hollowware, I do this, and if I make jewelry, I do that." It's all one kind of creative effort.

MS. PIJANOWSKI: It's all one creative-yeah, I think so.

MS. FISCH: And what do you think are the characteristics of your work that make it your work?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: What do you mean? Characteristics?

MS. FISCH: I mean, do you think of your work as being narrative, or poetic, or geometric? Are there some characteristics that are common throughout your work?

MS. PIJANOWSKI: One common characteristic is nothing to do with design, nothing to do with art, but to push -

MS. FISCH: To push. W