Oral history interview with Harry Gamboa, Jr., 1999 Apr. 1-16

This transcript is in the public domain and may be used without permission. Quotes and excerpts must be cited as follows: Oral history interview with Harry Gamboa, Jr., 1999 Apr. 1-16, Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.

Interview with Harry Gamboa
Conducted by Jeffrey Rangel
At various cafes in Los Angeles, California
April 1 and 16, 1999

Preface

The following oral history transcript is the result of a tape-recorded interview with Harry Gamboa on April 1 and 16, 1999. The interview took place in Los Angeles, CA, and was conducted by Jeffrey Rangel for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.

Interview

APRIL 1, 1999

Session 1, Tape 1, Side A (30-minute tape sides)

JEFFERY RANGEL: Okay, I've got to introduce this tape so that they know what . . .

HARRY GAMBOA: Want to turn it around when you want to talk?

JEFFERY RANGEL: No, that's o.k.

HARRY GAMBOA: Can you make sure you hear yourself? I actually shot something here.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Is that right? How did it turn out?

HARRY GAMBOA: For the video I did, it was okay.

JEFFERY RANGEL: The coffee maker wasn't drowning things out?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, it became part of the piece.

JEFFERY RANGEL: That was part of it. Okay.

This is an interview for the Archives of American Art. Today is April 1st, 1999. The interview's with Harry Gamboa, Jr. and the interviewer is Jeff Rangel. Okay. Let's get started. I guess . . . I wanted to take a little bit different approach today. Normally these interviews go biographically so we start off talking about family history, and how you got interested in creating art and stuff like that. But since this book [Urban Exile: Collected Writings of Harry Gamboa, Jr., 1998] came recently, I thought maybe we would start at the end and work backwards a little bit right now. And just get some of the reflections, some of your reflections of how you feel about this book coming out? If it marks any kind of transitions for you, for yourself creatively or anything of that nature.

HARRY GAMBOA: I think when I saw the book I held it in my hand, it made so many ephemeral situations and ideas concrete and also I think what was presented to me was sort of the limitations of my own scope of activities. That's what I was kind of concerned about.

JEFFERY RANGEL: What do you mean?

HARRY GAMBOA: I think I looked at it and saw basically twenty-five years worth of work which in itself is only sort of a fragment of a lot the work that I've done because I guess as a photographer, I've really considered that to be a big part of my work. And, you know, there's a hand full of photographs but there's been thousands of photographs taken. And I think about all the different situations that kind of slipped past and how I've been thinking ever since I've seen the book that I have to maybe reframe the way I look at things. And I'm interested basically in plugging up the holes as it were. You know, it's like I said, on some level the book kind of does look like psychological Swiss cheese. There are a few holes and sometimes holes are - In Swiss cheese, as it were, the holes are . . . well, not only that, the holes are greater than the whole, you know. So, it's - I'm trying to figure out what was real and what wasn't. What was it that actually - At what point did documentary . . . a documentary sensibility and a conceptual sensibility - at what point did they merge? And it's kind of like asking the question, "When did I sink into the quick sand?" and it's already over your head. You know, it feels warm and fuzzy but you know, you're drowning on a certain level. And so, I've been really concerned about trying to make my work stronger actually.

JEFFERY RANGEL: You don't feel like what's in the book is a good representation?

HARRY GAMBOA: Oh yeah, yeah. No. I feel it is a good representation. Of course, it represents Harry Gamboa in his twenties, in his thirties, in his early forties. And of course, it's all built up to this point where I think I have a different perspective. And it's like for instance I have a male art piece called "Young Boy in the Fifties" but I'm just about to become the "Man in His Fifties". And so, I'm figuring that's definitely going to be a ten year project, you know? And so I'm just a bit concerned with how I'm going to utilize my time because a lot of that period of time that I used to put that work in was a lot of free time, or absolute . . . points of absolute poverty, difficult situations and wasn't so compounded with constantly having to work and sustain this life raft which is also like a piece of Swiss cheese. It's full of holes. You know, I paddle along on something that's perpetually sinking but it somehow stays afloat. But it means I have to be really active and fast. And having made the selection to be an artist and to maintain an identity as an artist . . . and I think specifically to maintain the identity of a Chicano artist - which many people have told me is like . . . the minute I lose the term Chicano, things will go okay for me.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Really?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, well, you know, it's kind of common sense, I believe. On a certain level, dealing with the capitalist system and the way things are, I guess there would be very great financial rewards for that. But I look at that carrot and it looks a little spoiled to me. I'm not exactly allergic to carrots but the way it's dangling. It' just -- It doesn't look right. It should be at least on a plate.

JEFFERY RANGEL: I think that sense of integrity or consistency comes through in your book.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Have you seen some of your peers go for that carrot?

HARRY GAMBOA: I can't blame anybody that goes for that carrot actually. I think at one point I felt as though I could judge who might be in similar situations. I don't really feel like I can do that too much any more. Because I realize that all people have contradictions. And I think the one thing that bothers me occasionally are people that go for the carrot and then go into absolute denial that they were ever in need of that carrot. And they even deny where the carrots come from. They do come from beneath the earth. And so they're dirty when they start off. As long as these people recognize it and it's just outright, I can understand that and accept that. So I really can't condemn anybody that takes a big bite. But, at the same time, not everyone has that kind of similar appetite. It takes a little bit more to make something appetizing. And I find that in order for me to do the work that I find interesting . . . . Or better yet, it's not that I find the work interesting. I'm just compelled to do what I do. Like for instance, I don't believe I can ever plan to create something. It's just something that comes up. In fact, the best way to doom something that I think I'm going to be doing is talk about the fact that I'm going to do it. Because it never becomes that. It's always that's the point, the starting off point. It's the point for the trajectory to go another way, wherever. It can go anywhere from there. So, I find that I've had to figure out different strategies to survive financially, maintain my family, as it were; make sure I don't give in to artistic impulse too much. For instance, probably the worst thing that can happen to me is if I get an idea to write a play. Because if I get the idea to write a play, everything else becomes secondary. And it becomes a real obsession. And maybe I'll take a year to write a play and those that are the closest to me will probably suffer the consequences of being subjected to these different characters - in terms not so much in split personalities but subjected to trial and error regarding the lines that they might have to go through. So it's kind of hard on people.

JEFFERY RANGEL: So what medium have you found that works well for that kind of creative impulse?

HARRY GAMBOA: You know, I haven't had a camera for about a year. So I haven't taken photographs for about a year. But I plan on getting a camera soon. But, it was always either I wrote, worked on video, performed, did a camera or all. But it's like choosing different flavors of the months kind of thing. They were part of the arsenal. This one worked for that idea. This mixed with that. I guess now probably the most recently what I purchased was -- the G3 Mac. And it's sort of a laptop, the new laptop MacIntosh. And it's almost coming full circle because early on I used to do a lot of illustrating. And now I find myself working in the illustrator program in the Mac and kind of experimenting with the idea that I'll possibly put together some website in which I can incorporate text, video, sound, utilize the foto novella which, for instance, you participated in one of them that I did. But make them sort of animated foto novellas.

JEFFERY RANGEL: That puts a whole different spin on things.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, it's a whole -- sort of integrate everything all together. But at the same time, my main concern is the element of design and its function as a tool to kind of express a lot of these different ideas that I have. Still with the idea of utilizing a lot of people, bringing in a lot of different characters. And with the focus of just adding an additional element of what could be considered part of Chicano culture. And so, I'm not sure what it would be but I'm sure it would be a mix of a lot of things. And for instance, it would be something that I'm not really interested in turning into like a marketing tool or one of these billboard type of things where it would just sort of be a series of projects that would just emerge. And then this way, I could at the very least, have some level of dissemination of the ideas and concepts and could reach out to a lot of people. And maybe some of those ideas would later find themselves in another - maybe there's a book form or there would be sort of snippets of things that would develop into videos. Or from that I could bounce off and create some performance pieces.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Right. It compounds the possibilities.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. That kind of thing. And the thing is it's one of the things I've always been interested in is sort of like outreach. And I've always been interested in an international outreach which I believe it's what the Net could provide. And it also seems affordable as opposed to thinking that I'm going to go out and make a feature length film which I don't - I think at one point in my life that was something that I considered. But I don't seem to have that kind of personality that's going to - I don't really want to wine and dine with those people in the first place.

JEFFERY RANGEL: You've got to hustle for those resources.

HARRY GAMBOA: And in the meantime, by the time you finally get it out there, it's never really yours.

JEFFERY RANGEL: I see what you're saying.

HARRY GAMBOA: So I just see it as an art project and I'm just willing to go out and figure out ways to support it, even if I simply have to go out and work for it.

JEFFERY RANGEL: That gives me a good idea of where you are headed, or maybe where you're at right now. And it's actually touching on a lot of things that I want to ask you in the course of the interview. But one thing in asking you about the book that really struck me was I heard you talk about a story of when you were in grade school about being disciplined for not speaking English well, or not knowing English. And the fact that you have a book now of all your writings, some of which are inter-lingual, predominantly English, strikes me as a pretty profound circle to come all the way around. Some kind of . . . I don't know . . . achievement in that regard. And I guess maybe that takes us back to some of the early years or experiences that motivated you to create.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, I don't know. I tell people . . . and I've actually known a few people from way back then, from my childhood. Some family members and other people. But I always had a sense that I was the participant viewer, even as a child. I could almost always feel like I was standing aside from myself and being able to almost analyze the experience as the experience was going on. And it almost made me feel a little strange to feel that way because every day life seemed so performative, as it were. And certain situations that were considered to be truth and actual, seemed to be merely ritual. And I think for me, childhood seemed very mysterious and fun. And yet, I was exposed to quite a bit of violence and brutality. Not that I was a victim of it exactly. Like I was never really a victim of physical brutality at home. And I don't think I was a victim of verbal abuse or anything like that. But I got to witness quite a bit of that. Things were very harsh in the way things were put. And how some people would probably be more sensitive to their children nowadays and what they might have access to or what they might be willing to see, or even how they were . . . the goals that would be established for them were totally different back then. Or back then and where I was from. So, for instance, like even being a small kid in kindergarten, I remember we were all coming out of school once and . . . I don't know, there were some teenage gang members. I don't recall if they were from White Fence or Varrio Nuevo which were the two gangs that were in my neighborhood. And I guess they're two of the oldest gangs in L.A. But a hand full of these older guys, they herded us from the elementary school to the local park which used to be called Fresno Park back then. And they explained to us how we should be gang members in their gang and show loyalty to their barrio. And they proceeded to stab somebody in front of us. And again, you know, I must have been five at the time. And for all I know, they killed him. I think they killed him. And I remember everybody just kind of being frozen in fear and running away. And I remember thinking that that was very ridiculous and stupid and I would never be a member of a gang, no matter what they did. They'd have to kill me before I'd be in a gang. And I remember just kind of having that . . . taking a position like that. And it almost seemed like that was the second time I was confronted with something that was very harsh. And the first one I believe was when they put the dunce cap on me. I also probably took a stand like that. Which was you can call me stupid but I'm going to prove to you that I'm not. From that point on. And I think it was those two things that kind of tested . . . I don't know. Tested my personality as it were. And yet, to look at photographs of me, I was like - with the exception of my younger brother, I was like the . . . Well, I was the shortest and skinniest kid in school. Always. The weakest physically in school. And you have to consider that growing up in a really tough neighborhood, if you're physically weak like that, you could probably easily be eradicated. Completely destroyed. And I had to think quick. And I found that through humor, I could always generate friends with very big, powerful guys. And by bribing them, by giving them chocolate cake and stuff, early on, I had their intense loyalty. And no one ever bothered me because I would always make the meanest and the toughest guys laugh. And actually, I used to work in the cafeteria back then. I've been working since I was in kindergarten just about. So I'd give these guys free cake. And so, it just goes way back . . . that kind of mentality that I've had where I've always kind of had this bartering mentality where . . . and it's political too . . . where I'll give you something and basically you owe me a favor. It sounds like the Godfather. And this favor may never come. And most of the time, the favors don't come. But sometimes the favors are so minor like I might ask, "Can I just take your picture?" And it's okay. I'll be able to take your photograph. Or "Do you mind if . . . " something where it's either perform or "can you just say this on my behalf" or just say yes when someone asks you a question. Whatever it is, I promise you you're not going to get in trouble. And I've been doing that since I was five.

JEFFERY RANGEL: I'm kind of surprised to hear that because if I get to the next stage that I'm familiar with is your leadership role in the student activism of the Blow Outs. So how did those survival instincts catapult you into a position like that? Was there a change that took place?

HARRY GAMBOA: Actually, I think that survival instinct is basically what kept me afloat because elementary school was pretty interesting because that particular school was undergoing a demographic shift. It used to be a Jewish, a Russian and a Japanese neighborhood.

JEFFERY RANGEL: This is in Boyle Heights?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, Lorena St. School in Boyle Heights. And when I was in elementary school -- I believe it must have been 1954 -- no, no -- '55 when I first went to school there. At the age of four. I mean, it was so close to World War II that there were swastikas and graffiti that would say, "Kill the Japs" written in chalk.

JEFFERY RANGEL: In school?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. Because people were still - You know, they had parents and it was still just a matter of a couple of years past World War II. And so I had no idea what was that. And the other graffiti that was on the wall was "Zorro" from the TV show, right? So that was like the television influence. And the thing that -- my experience was that I was one of the few monolingual Spanish speaking students that had arrived on that campus. Other students that happened to be Chicano could also speak English. And my dad was basically from - My dad was born in Mexico but he was brought to L.A. like a month afterwards or something. And then my mom was born in El Paso but in El Paso everyone basically spoke Spanish. So growing up, it was just Spanish in the house. And even though my dad could speak English and Spanish fluently, it wasn't until my appearance in the public school system and there it was such a negative response to it that I believe my parents decided that - and I think this is kind of a common thing for some of the people from that period was "Why should I have my child be punished so harshly? Let's not even deal with Spanish." And so from that point on, they only spoke English to me. So that further hastened the transition to completely English because anything that was Spanish had such a negative connotation to it. And I think that was one of the - That was one of the things that propelled me into being focused on stereotypes at an early age. And junior high was kind of a different thing. Junior high was more of like a prison experience I believe. When I think back, it reminds me more of when I see these prison movies because students were violent and so were teachers. And that particular school, you know, I think I mentioned it somewhere but I basically ditched or missed anywhere between forty to fifty percent of public school time. I would always ditch. It was such a bad experience. I didn't enjoy it. But when I did go to junior high - and again, this could probably be validated if you were to connect with some of the few people that I knew back then - I think I got hit almost every single day I was in school there by teachers. Yeah, literally hit by . . . Well, the term "corporal punishment" sounds rather like it's a uniform experience but in some cases you get hit by a stick, a cello. I don't know if you know what a cello stick is. It's a big long . . . No, no, no. Not the bow. It's a big piece of wood like a two by four and it's put on _______. It has holes in it. And they would hit you with that. Or I literally got punched in the stomach, the jaw, the chest, and the head. I got choked, nearly strangled unconscious once by a teacher. Slapped. I'd seen a lot of other students that were, just unbelievable kind of behavior. And you figure this is happening when you're undergoing puberty. It can result in a very angry child. And at the same time, you would have, because of the time period, in the seventh grade, the constant reinforcement that well, this war looks like it's going to last a long time so don't plan on being anything because you're probably going to go and fight. And people get killed when they fight.

JEFFERY RANGEL: You're talking about the Viet Nam War.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, it's Viet Nam. And then I guess the other thing I forgot to mention was that in elementary school, there was also that same kind of a double negative where it was "Better do your homework" but "By the way, we might get blown up by an atomic bomb today so please drop under your seat." So, you listen to that and it's like, "Well." I don't know if every kid listened to it that way but I sure did. I figured well, why in the hell would want to do homework if maybe I've only got a couple of weeks to live. And it's that perpetual kind of thing. It's like doom, doom, doom. And then you go to the next step and it's violence and you're being punished. And then there's doom at the end of that. And then you would see kids that were rewarded for the kind of behavior that was basically going to insure their doom. So, I wasn't too much in favor of that. And because I had learned to read and I was fortunate enough to meet a couple of very interesting young people and actually a couple of very interesting teachers too, who I think were influenced by the beat generation. I think Gronk might have been - I know Gronk had this one teacher at some point. I didn't know Gronk back in junior high. A woman by the name of Mrs. Martin. Who else? There was also a teacher by the name of Mrs. Silverman. Would that be it for junior high? - This guy's getting interviewed too, right? [referring to loud conversation in background]

JEFFERY RANGEL: Were they encouraging the writing and creative outlets?

HARRY GAMBOA: No. What they did was they had non-traditional ways of teaching. So what I think I got introduced to were like beat poets.

JEFFERY RANGEL: You're in junior high at this point?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. I got introduced to - Someone had mentioned - Who else was there? Well, I got basically introduced to Time Magazine, Newsweek. I was reading the newspaper back then. I became very interested in reading these kinds of these kinds of publications. Yet, I had never really - For instance, I never read an entire book until I got out of high school. Never read a book. But, I did read a lot of printed matter. Put it that way. Never a book. And the majority of the teachers I was introduced to though were highly damaging types of individuals in junior high. People that were very harsh. They were into control. Had no sense of dedication towards the learning experience. And, of course, it showed because the schools that I went to had the highest drop out rate, had the lowest test scores. And I'm sure there's probably a lot better teachers now. But from what I read the scores are still simply as bad. I don't think I realized back then that I felt that quite possibly as I do now that there also has to be sort of a paradigm shift in the way parents deal with their kids. And there has to be another level of involvement in dealing with their kids, even if it means - And I guess I still feel this way. It probably still requires that they should shut down the schools from time to time. I don't see that kind of political motivation any more. And I believe that there's quite a number of things that are still wrong with the schools. And if they're not going right, you just deal with it. You should just change it. But, a school system like the L.A. city school system, having the billions of dollars that they play with and having the results that they do, it's basically like cultural felony being committed on a daily basis.

JEFFERY RANGEL: So, the impetus to walk out, to . . . .

END OF SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE A
BEGIN SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE B

JEFFERY RANGEL: Okay this is Tape 1, Side B, continuing with Harry Gamboa on April 1st.

HARRY GAMBOA: So I feel that a lot of the energies we're building amongst the student population. But, again, being a very young person at that point -- I was introduced to quite a number of interesting people at the age of fourteen or fifteen, not realizing that many of these people had already had experiences with various organizations and organizing. Some of those people were actually organizers and participants in the defense of the Zoot-Suiters in the forties. Some of these people were actually some people that had even protested against World War II. I got to meet a lot of these different types of people who in that time period were I guess deemed a threat to the country on a certain level and would be, with the situation as it was back then, with sort of domestic surveillance taking place. Maybe the places that I went to go and express my points of view were probably not the best places to show up if one wanted to have any kind of career.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Like where?

HARRY GAMBOA: Oh, I'm not even sure exactly. Just these different buildings that -

JEFFERY RANGEL: Guilt by association, huh?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. And I didn't even know who many of these people were. But, I genuinely had a real lived experience to talk about. It's just that the venues I was at possibly were, again, things that were targeted by the government at that point. And so, being linked with that, having been associated with that, you know, my name appears on this list in 1970. And it's only because there was an additional effort to basically defund federal funding for higher education for minorities. And so I was used as an example as someone that was receiving federal funds under the EOP program and that if someone like me were to receive a college education, that I would really become a danger to society and really pose a risk and a threat. And you saw that list. So you know there's a lot of recognizable names. And the way it was spelled out and built up, I was associated with the Brown Berets and I never was a member of the Brown Berets.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Well, it's like anybody who was involved in Chicano activism was a Brown Beret.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. And the thing was there was no trial. There was nothing. But again, it was sort of like it's a pronouncement of guilt in this very official looking document. And suddenly, you're an enemy. And you're an enemy. And for me, it was really striking because I think up until like the early seventies, I was really bent on the idea of really following the constitution, my constitutional rights. And I felt it was a real legitimate approach and I felt that politics were really an answer up to that point.

JEFFERY RANGEL: What changed your perspective on that?

HARRY GAMBOA: I think I became disillusioned with leaders of all types, and followers of all types. I felt that the people who lead definitely have an agenda other than what they're proclaiming. And generally, followers also have an agenda other than what they're proclaiming. And that also spelled out itself in front of me in various situations that were both absurd and tragic and where people who are probably least gifted and least qualified are the ones that are rewarded. Those that are the most deserving, most promising are the ones that are punished and jailed. And I kind of started having the feeling that I should probably focus more on what my influence could be as an individual. How could I really affect some kind of change? And up until that point, also I thought I would be a musician. So again, in the book I thank somebody - I don't know if I've ever told you this story. But I was always in bands. Always in different kind of . . . I mean, I was in orchestra in elementary school.

JEFFERY RANGEL: What'd you play?

HARRY GAMBOA: Oh, here's one. Here's a good one. This one goes back to language. This kind of reinforced my need to speak English. Somewhere or another in elementary school, a visiting orchestra came by and played. And I kept looking at the French horn. And I liked the way it sounded. And I wanted to play the French horn. And I guess I wasn't paying close attention or I wasn't too sure and I thought it was called the clarinet. So I kept bothering this music teacher, "I want to play music. I want to play music. I want to play the clarinet. I want to play the clarinet." Meaning I want to play the French horn. I bugged the guy and I pestered so much. And I've always been that way . . . where I will just - I'll target you and I'm going to get what I want. So I got what I wanted. I got a clarinet in my hand. I was so embarrassed I couldn't say, "Hey man, I meant the French horn." So I learned how to play woodwinds of all kinds. And so I also played harmonica and I used to sing a little bit. And I was always - I hung around with musicians that were really funny. Funny bright guys. Crazy guys. And at that time period, a lot of those guys became very famous. Really great musical talent. And the last band I was in, we played in the garage. And we were playing all these different types of songs that could utilize flute and singing and harmonica and sort of like Neal Young, Jethro Tull, all this stuff. And then one day, I showed up to the rehearsal. We hadn't started playing yet. And then one of the band members comes up to me and says, "Well, you know what, Harry. Listen, we're switching gears. We're going to kind of a Mexican mode. And by the way, you don't really play as good as us. You've kind of been goofing up. You're not rehearsing as well." And because I had such immense respect for the guys, I told them, I said, "You know what, Dave? I really appreciate you telling me this because I think I've been thinking that too, that maybe I'm not that good of a musician." And that too was sort of like very hard to swallow because I had been working so hard all these years that I'd always pictured that I'd become like a well known musician. And it was David Hidalgo from Los Lobos and it was the members of the band were there. So I left before they even adopted that name. And there were a couple of others still in that band. And I'm actually glad I left because I don't think I probably would have done well ____. They never would have achieved that fame. I would have been ____

JEFFERY RANGEL: That reminds me also of something I read also talking about how the people who were at Garfield at the same time and the collective energy of a generation. I wonder if you could comment about that. Some of the modes of expression, maybe.

HARRY GAMBOA: Again, if you were to go to Garfield and you go to East L.A. now, it's a really different place. Back then there was -- society was different. There was no such thing as shopping malls. So there were these little . . . there were these streets in various neighborhoods that were considered the business district. So for instance, Whittier Boulevard was a thriving business district. It had three theatres, one that was considered the best one which was the Golden Gate, and at the other end was the Boulevard and the Center Theatre. And you had different types of clothing places. And you could actually focus all your attention and energy there and buy and shop and do things there. And on the weekends, it was a place for cruising. Cruising culture. Car culture. The emerging car culture. And there used to be a couple of record stores where even one of the radio stations would even broadcast from the window display there.

JEFFERY RANGEL: That actually happened?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. So, and even the drug store had like a malt shop in it. So we could go and hang. It was a place where you could go to hang out and the reason I selected Garfield, which I was really supposed to go to Roosevelt because Garfield was near such a place. It was near this kind of activity. And it seemed very interesting and of course, all the beautiful girls were there. And back then, I don't know, maybe it was me and my youth. But, I felt that God, there were so many - They all looked like beauty queens and movie stars. All these girls. And all the guys actually looked like movie stars too. People used to dress as though they were performing in a film or a play. People would not go out unless they were totally decked out. They were just going out to impress. And I mean, and I think there was a real intense focus on that. Your hair had to be done right. Your clothing had to be done a certain way. Things were very stylized and ritualized. And I think I didn't come up with the idea but at a later point I felt that it was - These were substitutions for displays of power. Everyone realized that they were poverty stricken and everybody realized that they were all headed towards dead ends. And yet, to face that was feeling down trodded and looking neat and looking as though you'd been defeated was totally unacceptable. So you may as well look as though you're a great success even though you're just a success for the block. And you'll still see that in the neighborhood where people will have low rider cars and they have engine parts gold plated. And then you go to the refrigerator and there's nothing in it. And maybe everyone's got one pair of underwear and one pair of pants and one pair of shorts, I mean, shoes. And that's it. And no money in the bank. And no one can afford to go to school. But yet, that car is there. And then you go for the cruise and everybody looks at it, "Wow! It looks great." And then you tuck it away again because there's not insurance for it. But you've invested all this money and it's this display that - On a certain level, it's very existential because you're announcing your existence. Without that, there'd be no way that you'd be able to even face the world. And so, you tie in your identity with that. And so, . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: But these energies actually generated musicians, artists who went on to achieve some success.

HARRY GAMBOA: Oh yes. Oh yes. And actually, a lot of them achieved it because they were dynamically opposed to those modes of thinking and doing. And assuming . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: Yeah, I use success in quotation marks.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. And in that kind of life, there's no real room for creativity. And because of the kind of neighborhood I grew up in, ritual and loyalty . . . and the loyalty to ritual . . . was something that was demanded of you. And if you stood up, you'd be punished collectively. So, for instance, if like in the sixties, if you wanted to grow your hair a little bit long, and you wanted to wear something and it didn't fit the mode and maybe it looked effeminate to somebody, you immediately were classified as a puto. And anyone could just beat you up for looking that way. You were just punished on the street. And if you were a girl and you looked like - I don't know - just unacceptable on a certain level, you could also be punished. And it was just accepted. I mean, it was like the village was taking care of its own. And anyone that strayed from the path would suffer the consequences. And so to be an artist or to be a musician or to be a performer and to do it in ways that were not recognized was really taking your life in your own hands. Because, especially in that period of time where it was either the police were going to take care of you or someone in the neighborhood was going to take care of you. So you met a lot of resistance because it was so conservative. And to even to stray into the sensitive area of religious icons or even hinting that you might not believe in certain things or might even question what America is all about, again, you were setting yourself up to be someone that's punished. So, at any given step growing up again from the earliest point all throughout the time that I grew up in East L.A., there were so many invisible barriers. Yet there were very obvious rules that existed within the confines of those barriers. And in order to get anything done, one had to really always be prepared for the consequences. And so, like I said, going back to my earliest point where I made friends with people and this and that, I almost felt it very beneficial for me to always have a lot of friends, very influential friends. And to always be able to speak up for myself and to almost go way in advance of where I'm going to go and set up all my arguments before I even take the action. So that when the situation finally arrived, I was already prepared and actually better prepared than anyone who was going to counteract me. And always had my exit strategies. The rule is it's like whenever I walk in a building, I always look for three ways out. And I know one way is the way I came in. The other way is usually the back door. And the third way is a window I'm going to have to break or something I'm going to use to get out. And in thinking that way, well one might say well that's sort of a . . . that's a structure for a paranoid development. But, growing up the way I have, I've actually taken that third exit maybe fifty times in my life where you walk in somewhere not expecting to leave a different way. But I have. And it's only because I have that I'm still here. So, that also goes with leaving, exiting high school.

JEFFERY RANGEL: [chuckles] I was going to say, is that metaphoric?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. It's metaphoric because for instance in high school, I don't know if anyone can access my school records. But I know I tried to access my school records, my cumulative records in school. I received a letter back from the L.A. City School Board saying that all of my files were burned in a fire in Garfield. There was no fire in Garfield. They wound up in the possession of the PDID or whoever it was - the FBI. Whoever it was that picked up all those records. The official record is that it was burned in a fire. But basically if you were to look at all my records, I think I had pretty close to an F, a zero . . . zero point zero GPA. But because I was such a great organizer - and even after the Walk Outs, I went back in the twelfth grade and I organized a movement to change the dress code. Because the dress code was one of these kind of situations where it was such an intangible kind of rule where the slightest - I don't know - if your sweater's got a wrinkle in it or if your hair was touching your earlobe or any little item, they could use that as a pretext to kick you out of school or to do things to you, treat you badly. Because it was always the excuse, the premise by which injustice could be served. And so, I wasn't so much that I wanted everybody have their hair grown long and this and that, whatever. It's just that knew that it was being abused. It was an abuse of power. And I organized a campaign and had something like 4,000 signatures on a petition. I think the school only had 3,200 students but we got members of the faculty and members of the school community. And we got the dress code changed. And then I went out and found something else I was going to go for. And then everyone was saying, "Well, you're going to fail school." I said, "I don't care. I'll come back next semester and I'll raise hell." And what they did, they actually dragged me in a room with the two Boys Vice Principals. They struck a deal with me.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Are you serious?!

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, literally. And they said that they would actually graduate me if I agreed -- I don't know. It was sort of a - This was in the early twelfth grade. They struck a deal telling me that if I was a member of Marching Band . . . and so that was like a way of showing my loyalty to Garfield High and that was a way of me breaking down and this and that. But I was always a musician and I liked all these people and I thought it was funny and silly that if I did that they would give me enough units and credits and they'd just write them in and that I'd be able to graduate on time. So I did it. So when I graduated I had a one point one GPA.

JEFFERY RANGEL: How does one get into university with a one point one?

HARRY GAMBOA: Two days after I'm out of high school, I'm standing on the corner of Whittier and Atlantic Boulevard and this young guy shows up. A little like a gang member guy with a beanie over his eyes and comes up to me and says, "Hey man. What are you doing?" I said, coming from where I come from, I was always afraid more of the smaller guys that had a hard core look than the bigger guys because the hard core guys if they were seventeen years old or eighteen meant that they had to have been the meanest, craziest guys around to even survive. Everyone was afraid of these guys, right? So I was afraid of this guy. And I said, "Well, yeah, I don't know what I'm doing now. What do you think I should be doing?" He goes, "Well, hey man. You want to go to college?" I go, "Well, yeah. What's that? I've heard of them. I've never been on one." He said, "Yea man, if you want to go to college, we can get you into college, man. E.O.P. [Equal Opportunity Program]" "I don't know, man. I barely graduated from high school. I don't know." He said, "If you go to college, you don't go to Viet Nam." I said, "Well, I had just been thinking what was I going to do about Viet Nam." Because I was seventeen at the time. And quite a number of my friends had already been killed because a lot of them joined when they were seventeen. Joined the Marines. And a lot of my friends had already been killed when I was in high school. And I'd already lost a lot of friends to drug overdose and being stabbed. Not too many shootings back then. But, stabbed but just horrible crazy things that happened to these people. And the realization was and the way I looked at it - and Gronk and I were just talking about it the other day, somebody asked us, "Well, why are you guys laughing?" And we were laughing because Gronk and I were talking about how we're so ill prepared for middle age because we never expected to live past our thirties, let alone twenties. It's just that thought of existing beyond a certain point was not even considered, you know. It was almost given that you're not going to live that long. So, which allows for a certain amount of freedom. If you have that way of thinking and that take on it, it can also be the kind of thing where you go in a closet and cry. Bite your hand and freak out. That's the other way. You might as well enjoy it. Go outside and enjoy the sun and go outside and enjoy the night time. Get cold, get hot, get in trouble, have a great time. Any way, I went with this guy and as it turns out, there was an organization that was recruiting. I think it was called El Centro Joaquin Murrieta Center. And it was the first time that I'd ever been exposed to a xerox machine! [chuckles] It was a very wet copy. I mean, I wrote this biography, autobiography, which is at Stanford by the way. Handwritten anything very . . . what's a word for . . . cute. Like I probably would have - I don't know what I'd give one of my students for writing such a thing.

JEFFERY RANGEL: I remember reading it.

HARRY GAMBOA: It's just a very strange thing. And I think I wrote it in such a way, thinking it was going to go nowhere any way. But a couple of days later, I was on the Northridge Campus. I didn't know the history of California State University, Northridge which that year had rioted. I heard later on that all the funding from all the EOP monies were directed to Northridge as a way of quieting things down. And they immediately needed 150 Chicano students and they needed 150 Black students. And they wanted to split it male, female. And they were literally picking people up off the streets. So consequently, those people that were in the dorm were - I'd have to say half of them were criminals. You know, they were criminals . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: And this was a way out.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, yeah. These were criminal type of people. And the other types were people that had fallen through the cracks or some very creative people. And other people that really deserved to go to college. And the idea to mix Chicanos and Blacks in the same damn building, I felt was a very dangerous thing. Fortunately, no one ever got killed there. But, it could have easily resulted in - I'd have to really thank the people at Northridge at that time. Some of them are instructors till at this point. Some were - In fact, Beto Ruiz who's there now was a dorm guy. Whatever you call them. The R.A. Now he's like a tenured professor. He's an older guy; he's been around for a long time.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Did you ever run into Phil Montes over there?

HARRY GAMBOA: God, Phil Montes. I knew him from way, way, way, way earlier. I don't know where I met him.

JEFFERY RANGEL: From organizing?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, somewhere along that line.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Because I think he was at Northridge at one time, putting together an EOP program.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. For instance, I didn't - This was in 1969 so this was prior to the Chicano Moratorium. That particular summer was for me very interesting because I was introduced to all these different types of people that came from all the negative walks of life of L.A. And were then put in a college situation. Back then it was still called San Fernando Valley College. And for me it was such a bleak environment because I was so used to living in the city and that was like the outskirts. It seemed like I was in the middle of the desert and it was ...

JEFFERY RANGEL: Now it's just One Valley.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah but for me it wasn't -- I just had the sense like I was trapped. So I wanted to get out of there as fast as possible. But I basically got introduced to quite a bit of literature. And I had already been very well trained in politics and organizing. I mean, not literally taught in classroom type settings but off campus. And I think I have to mention one person though, going back to high school. Again, it was almost when I was out of high school. There was a teacher by the name of Dr. Owen J. O'Callahan who I thank in my book. I was - God, I must have been standing up in the classroom and preaching about something or another. And he was this guy who used to show up. And he used to like to have a drink every once in awhile. And very cool guy. God, I don't know. He looked like he'd been around. He was definitely a poet. And he's the only guy up to that time who really considered what I was saying, looked at what I was saying, and really in a blunt and matter of fact kind of way, in a very meaningful sort of way, in a very - I'd have to say in a loving sort of way and the way that someone might love their own child, told me that what I was up to was going to result in my own self destruction and that I was full of shit. And that I'd better really study and back up all my statements. That I'd better take care of business and learn because I'm going to meet my match out there and that I just can't do it just off the cuff. And he scolded the hell out of me in front of all my very good friends, people that I respected. And I really respected him. And it was definitely the slap in the face that I needed. All these years, I'd been hit. But this was finally the slap that I really needed.

JEFFERY RANGEL: ____________

HARRY GAMBOA: Well, it was the one I needed. The other ones I didn't need. That one I needed. And it was from that day on - This is how I picked up literature. I went to the corner drug store. They used to sell books on a rack. And the first one I picked out, I liked the cover. And it turns out it was a pretty interesting book. And I learned the hard way. I learned the hard way how to read. And over the summer, I got introduced also to some literature at Northridge. And I just started reading a lot. Because I had already been reading, reading books.

JEFFERY RANGEL: So this was the summer school before the term actually began?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, I guess like a bridge program or something like that. And at the end of that bridge program, I decided that wasn't for me. I wanted to go back to L.A. I switched places with a friend of mine, John Ortiz, who's also mentioned in the book. And I really never went back to Northridge 'til just a few years ago when I started teaching again. I used to have friends; I'd go hang out but I never went back as a student. And I spent twenty years at Cal. State L.A. hanging around, as it were.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Doing what?

HARRY GAMBOA: Occasionally taking classes. I think it was like one of the few places I could just kind of - I've always had public places that serve as my office. So for instance in downtown L.A., it's been Phillipes. For many years, my office was Cal State L.A. Right now, here on the west side, this particular Starbucks serves as my office generally. My meeting place. And for years and years, in downtown L.A., the other place was Clifton's Cafeteria.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Right. I read a couple of interviews that went down there.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. And so I've always liked these public places to meet at. To be spotted at. And where you're able to pick up a cup of coffee, sit down for several hours and then just think about things and figure it out. So, along the way, I picked up a couple of classes. But again, my educational career, the same as my artistic career, has been something that basically has been self taught and off the streets. And with some classroom instruction but I basically - I have no college degree at all. But I've been . . . .

END OF SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE B
SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE A

JEFFERY RANGEL: This is Tape 2, Side A, continuing with Harry Gamboa, Jr. on April 1, 1999. I wanted to interrupt and ask you about that summer in 1969 at Northridge where they throw these group of Chicanos and Blacks together and you said it was a pretty volatile situation. Was there ever any kind of understanding why you guys were being grouped together and any affinities developed, alliances under those circumstances?

HARRY GAMBOA: Well, beyond the first couple of years of elementary school, when I did have friends who were Japanese and Russian, beyond that point, I don't think I ever met anyone who was Anglo or African-American growing up, other than people that were in positions of authority like teachers. So I absolutely was segregated and I never found myself really interacting with African-Americans when I was on that campus that summer. And vice versa. There was no outreach either way. And at the same time, I think the thing that did result was that was not real, any outburst of hostilities. So, I'm not sure if the African-Americans had come from an experience where they had also been very segregated and they'd never been connected to Chicanos but like for instance, nowadays, it's such a different experience because it's a little bit more mixed now.

JEFFERY RANGEL: What about like Watts in '65? Were you aware of that? Or was there any kind of talk about that in your political training?

HARRY GAMBOA: Well, through the Chicano movement, I got to meet a lot of different people that were part of the civil rights movement. I mean, I was aware of the whole Black Power struggle and again, on a - It was almost like a theoretical basis; never on a personal basis. So I never was able to interact. Not invited and didn't invite myself either. Yeah, just very segregated.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Was it a sense that your concerns or the issues for the Chicano community were different? Or it was just more of the . . . . ?

HARRY GAMBOA: No, I believed back then that I thought we would all get equal billing. And the way I feel now is that the way the country operates is we get much less billing than I ever thought we would get. And it always is a Black and White issue. In fact, I had a situation take place about two years ago, or a year and a half ago when the President was going through race relations. His dialogue on race relations. And somehow or another, I got a phone call from the Christian Science Monitor. And I was interviewed for . . . God, I don't know. On a pay phone for about two hours, three hours. And I went on and on about how Chicanos do this and that and how we are constantly ignored by mass media. We're just not included. How I feel Chicanos should get a bigger share of what's out there in terms of even just getting attention focused on them. And I just kind of spelled out my case regarding this. And when the publication came out, there were three or four photographs of African-Americans and the whole dialogue throughout the whole article was between Black representatives and White representatives and then at the end of the article, "Gamboa, L.A. photographer, complains that it's always a Black and White issue." And it was sort of like the . . . just reinforces the whole . . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: Emphasis.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, why bother to say it. There it is. And so it was like a -- That was one of my . . . one of many jokes to take place in my life.

JEFFERY RANGEL: What about artistically? Was there ever a sense or awareness of what Black artists were doing in terms of stuff in the sixties and seventies?

HARRY GAMBOA: Not visual arts. But I mean, I've always been influenced quite a bit by music, performers. Not literature. But performers and music and some language. Some language. But beyond that, not really aware of visual arts at all. Again, I'm not university trained and so the way I've learned, it took a lot of time to fill in the gaps. Because I would focus here, focus there, focus here. You stand back and it looks like a house but doors are missing, windows are missing. And I have to go back and fill in the window, fill in that. And so, it's taken time. But as it was occurring, no. But, I'd have to probably say the same for Blacks and Whites not being aware of what Chicanos were up to. And because they seem to be barely aware of what's going on. I had an experience just recently though. Had I not had a life time the way I've had, it would have been probably very traumatic [chuckles] because it still left me a little stunned. Was at the Armand Hammer Museum. God, last fall. I believe it was last fall. They were having the L.A. Noir Show. Anyway, they were going to have like these panel discussions and this and that. Somehow or another, I get invited to be on the panel. And so, the moderator is Hunter Grojohoska who's a critic, a writer. And John Baldassari is one of the artists. Peter Plagens who writes for Newsweek is also on the panel. And God, I'm just blanking out these. Miriam Shapiro, another gallery person. And then another artist. And the whole idea is like what did the seventies mean to you and this and that. And Peter Plagens has always been rather hostile because he did complain about one of - I think you saw that piece. He responded to one of Gronk's - the interview that we did with Gronk. And then, just these different people have always been around. And they've known we've been around and they've actually had nothing to do with us. Anyway, I'm on the panel and everyone - The way it was going to work was that everyone has a few minutes to present their case. And the thing had been like announced throughout L.A. for awhile. And of course, the way the make up of the show of L.A. - I'm not sure if it was only Laura Aguilar was in the show that represented Chicanos.

JEFFERY RANGEL: That's pretty disturbing.

HARRY GAMBOA: And so, in the audience there were only two Chicanos. And one was Mario Ontiveros. I don't know if you know him. He's at UCLA. And my wife, Barbara. And Barbara got called away. So she had to go. So okay, so we had this one guy who's in favor and who can ask questions and stuff. And so I don't know. I gave a statement and I felt like I had the audience with me. Like I just told my motivation. I talked about the incident at the museum and at LACMA, how we spray painted and did a lot of things. And talked, tried to really maximize my fifteen minutes or whatever. And from that point on, no one ever directed a question towards me. And I was almost like - It was almost like physical the way I was ignored on stage. And the way the protocol was of the situation was if I were to butt in the conversation, I would be out of line. So rather what happened was I just sat there. I was able to make my fifteen minutes or so, my statement. I think I made another short statement. But after that, I was just - What it was, the direction of the conversation took place was actually centrally focused on things where it was obvious there was no Chicanos involved in it and it stayed there. And so, it became a very obvious thing. And it became like a - It was the kind of thing that I've had happen a million times but usually never before four or five hundred people at a time. And what was really interesting was afterwards, I had so many strangers come up to me and apologize for the way I was treated up there. And I kind of I guess I gave into the performance and just sort of silent protest. Because I wasn't about to butt in and go off what my role was. I mean, I could have gotten in there but it would have sounded a little bit - I think I would have done myself more harm to have said something. So I just kind of played it for what I felt was going to be more politically effective. And so it became a statement.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Do you think that's representative of the larger narrative of art history? Or L.A. arts? Or whatever?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. Well, I mean, even recently they had that show at MOCA. I forgot even the title of it. But it all related to performance and conceptual art and it was all supposed to be about L.A. And, of course, Asco's ignored. And even Art in America I think . . . I forgot what's his name . . . commented, "How can you forget Asco?" But it's not that they forget Asco. They know who Asco is. And they know who everyone who was in Asco was. It just doesn't fit.

JEFFERY RANGEL: You know, Harry, that reminds me of, in certain ways, it fits so perfectly that it's like you can't even tell it's there. And I think this struck me once when I went to a big show that Cindy Sherman was having in Chicago. Seeing some of the sort of like the photo stills that she did that completely reminded me of the No Movie concept. But there's a different cultural context that's taken place. And there's different maybe venues or networks in which it's being seen or not seen for that matter but so the visibility becomes a whole issue. It really just struck me as like this is the same thing that Harry and Asco are doing at the exact same time if not earlier. Essentially.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. I can understand why someone like Sherman would be so successful. I can also understand why Chicanos are ignored. And for instance, of the millions of Chicanos that are out there, who's actually supporting the artists financially by buying and I don't know . . . just organizing so that they will be successive, they will succeed. There's just so many problems. And the few people that do achieve a status where they can utilize their money, of course, it's utilized elsewhere as opposed to a risky venture like an artist's career. And I also feel there's not that tradition of that kind of support mechanism. So, basically, the only Chicanos that have really been able to make it are those people that are playing into what's already established and fulfills a need there. And not saying that they're even changing their work at all. It just so happens that it does work. And it's okay. But for other people, for instance, even to be a photographer for instance. Some photographers can really do very well. But again, it depends on the subject matter and who the actual photographer is, I think. I think that does make a difference. It's who the artist is and who the artist represents as well as the work. So it actually has to play into the market. Or else, it just - It's not really all a matter of quality, I don't think.

JEFFERY RANGEL: So in the case of the No Movies it would be because you're a Chicano artist and because the content is less recognizable in that sense? That it's not going to attract the attention in that way?

HARRY GAMBOA: Well, I mean, it's . . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: And in some way isn't that - Isn't the onus on the critic or - ____ the arts public to . . . .

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, it's on the critic. It's on the publication. It's on the publications; it's on the institutions. But, I feel the institutions have actually - educational institutions and the art institutions have failed the Chicanos. The art institutions, by and large, receive funding from all sorts of agencies not only private but government funding and support. And they should at least set aside some time, some focus to really promote and help Chicano artists. It's just not been the case. Only until recently are people kind of - And I actually feel a lot of it is just out of embarrassment, being publicly embarrassed, that they respond at all. So, again, that's . . . . To be motivated to continue to produce work with the understanding there's probably not going to be such an obvious reward for it also takes a certain kind of energy.

JEFFERY RANGEL: You certainly haven't seen any [rewards].

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. So it's - I personally feel - And I don't know, I guess it does come from my background. It's like the collective dead literally and figuratively. People who died physically, people who died emotionally, people who died intellectually and people who died economically are the people who are reflected in the pool when I look into it. And I feel just a little responsibility there if not to address our needs, which is not always the case, at least in some way pay homage in the work. And realize - And by doing that I feel that I address the young people so that they might see some things without having to experience it first hand. Like my book is just filled with so many instances where people make the wrong decisions. And then we play it out to the bitter end. And you can tell it's a result of - you know, dysfunction is still function. You're still going to get somewhere; you're still going to do something. And I just kind of show that it's maybe not the way to go. The unfortunate thing for an artist to go through that though is you kind of have to go there. And I think that's what's hard for me is that some times I go places. They're very hard to get out of, mentally, in a way where if I'm thinking about something and it's very dark or even if the humor's dark, it's hard to pull away from that. But I pull away. And it's the only way things can get done. But it's just scary to go there. It's like falling asleep and - what if you fall asleep and you have nightmares every night? Well, who wants to go to sleep? You know, dream. Yeah, sure. Dream. I don't want to dream.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Is that the kind of collective sense with Asco as well? Is that collectively . . . or was there a balance struck between the members?

HARRY GAMBOA: No, no, no. I don't know. I probably would have to be the one that had the darkest sense of humor out of all of them. It was a dark period for everybody actually at that point. But, you know, everybody - we shared a moment. We shared a moment. I think what probably was more conducive to our working together was basically the sense of humor more than the dark aspects of it.

JEFFERY RANGEL: In the face of what is tragic or what is . . . .

HARRY GAMBOA: What is absurdity, man.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Absurd.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. It's like the hardest, nicest -- I mean the hardest working, nicest people were the ones that suffered the most. And you grow up in L.A. and in Hollywood and you're taught Americanisms so you're thinking that you're going to achieve certain things. But, again, going back in that time frame, the actual possibility that you might even have any access or venue to anything. I mean now there's more venues. There's more things to do, I believe. Anybody can get a computer and go on line and do something. Anybody can go out and document their life now. For $5,000.00, you can have a production and keep producing all year long. Back then, there wasn't such a thing. Levels of communication were a little different. People's awareness of what was out there. Even the mere fact that you could even see the fact that we did float on the planet was not even really something that was part of the mind set.

JEFFERY RANGEL: I'm thinking - I want to take us back to the narrative. I'm interested in some of the awareness between artists, among artists. I think there's been discussion, writing about different aesthetics that were being generated.

HARRY GAMBOA: Like between the groups and the different artists?

JEFFERY RANGEL: Right. And what your sense of that is now.

HARRY GAMBOA: Well, you know, early on it was -- We were Asco. We were the ones that spray painted the museum. Los Four were the ones that got invited to have the show there. But we knew these guys, right? Except the thing that I found really interesting was that of course they were all university trained. And the adoption of the term "Chicano" I felt, again from my position back then, was more of an academic adoption. And I thought that was sort of the distinct difference with our group was that it was something that was just kind of picked up on the streets. And their aesthetic was very different in I felt that they were willing to replace old stereotypes with new stereotypes. And glorify certain myth and apply some folkloric nature to urban life which I had never seen. Still haven't seen it. Like it's pre-fabricated and made up some where. Someone else is talking about it. It doesn't occur naturally in the world. And I first met John Valadez many, many years ago. And I guess some of his early realist work and his focus into like the horror, the horror of like The Alarma, and sort of his sense of humor and then his obsession with sex goddesses. I guess I felt connected with him on that level. [chuckles] Early on. But it was . . . he had a way of just showing a sort of like a very, almost like a - I don't know if they were dreams. They were more like - I don't know, man. Some of his early stuff looked like kind of reflections of a psychosis of some sort. And that was beauty and horror simultaneously. And it was so vividly expressed that you would just gravitate to it. And there's been so many artists - I mean, most of the artists were like untrained and occasionally they did something that might seem interesting. For instance, there's a person I put in my book. His name is Jack Vargas. His photograph appears and he called himself an artist. And really the only piece I ever saw that he did - and it was something I found really influential to me, and only because it was an incident that took place. And they had a show many years ago called Chicanismo en el Arte in the rental gallery of LACMA, whatever. Anyway, he had there a little like Rolodex file. And there was this piece where you turn it to a certain letter and on there would be two different words, one referring to him being a Chicano in some way or another, and also to him being gay. And it was the first time I'd ever seen anything that expressed both concerns. And it was very humorous and it was very witty. And just to use a common object, a very conceptual piece. And I thought it was a very brilliant piece. But, he almost got killed for -- First of all expressing the fact that he was gay, and expressing the fact that he was Chicano combined insulted so many people that people wanted to toss him into the tar pits basically. And because of the way I am, a fast talker and I've always had to kind of intervene and do things, I cut in and was able to out talk and out argue as he escaped the third exit, you know. And so that was it. And I always remembered that. But I remember that that particular piece, the way he played with the words had an effect on the way I think from that point on the way I would use words. It was just something that just - There was a trick there that I said, "Wow." And so that's why I thanked him. But, I many years later, which is like '94, '95, I'd been working on my series, the Chicano male piece. And I was thinking about the next ten guys I wanted to photograph. Because every time I shoot somebody, it's not just going out and taking their picture, it's the whole idea of like you've got to sit down and talk to them. Maybe you've got to even talk to them twenty times before you finally get to see them and shoot and whatever. And man, I put down Jack's name and I go, "Wow. I wonder where he's at." I have no idea where he's at. I don't know what he's doing. And so I put his name in my pocket and walked down the street corner. Went to the store. And when I was walking out, he walks in front of me. And I say, "Hey, Jack. You wouldn't believe it, man. I've been thinking about you. I want to photograph you." It turns out he'd been working at the downtown L.A. library as a librarian. So we set an appointment. In fact, he wrote a letter to me. Said he wanted the appointment. And his letter's at Stanford. And so we made the appointment and when I showed up, - we had scheduled it a little too early. There was still some day light. So we had enough time to talk. And we talked for a long time, like an hour and half, until the light just got right. And I photographed him. And then we kind of separated. And I told him, "I'm going to get these rolls processed at some point and I'll get you a print." It's usually that way. I'll shoot a lot of pictures and then have to find some way to raise the money to get all these . . . I usually get twenty, forty, fifty rolls printed at once. And it costs several hundred bucks just to do that.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Do you get a bulk rate for that?

HARRY GAMBOA: No, not really because I use a really good printer. And that's just to make proof sheets and the negs, right. And so, anyway, here comes this image. It looks really great. I like it. I want to use it for my series. And so I make a copy and then I called Jack at the library, trying to reach him. Phone's disconnected. I had a home number. It's disconnected. I go, "Wow. Wonder if he quit or what happened. He must have moved." So anyway, a few weeks later, I decide just to go to downtown L.A. And go to the library and look around. And then some woman comes up to me and she goes, "Well, you know, he died." He had AIDS. He had just died a few days later. I never saw him again. So, I don't know what it has to do with anything. Those kind of things have really happened - Something like that even happened with Jerry Dreva recently, last year where he had been gone for a long time and then he showed up and told everybody he wanted to hang out and do this and that. He goes home and the next day he's dead.

JEFFERY RANGEL: That's what I heard. What was he like? What was your relationship with him?

HARRY GAMBOA: Actually Gronk and he were the ones that . . . they had a really good relationship. I knew Jerry only - He was a friend. So he was an interesting, fun guy. But I never hung out with him really. I just did a couple of little projects with him. In fact, one of the projects that I did with him was one of the earliest foto novellas that I was going to work on. Except it was going to be like sort of exhibited as a gallery thing. And it's one of those things that actually wound up getting stolen. The negative . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: The Bon Bons or him and Gronk?

HARRY GAMBOA: No, no. It was actually about twenty different people. We did a piece on a bridge on Fourth Street. And it was going to be based on the two gangs. The two pink guys and the suitor tourquoisers. And all that exists now is the proof sheets. I had placed the negatives in the trust of . . .

[END OF SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE A]

[BEGIN SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE B]

JEFFERY RANGEL: This is Tape 2, Side B. Continuing with Harry Gamboa on April Fool's Day. Something in the story that you told me about your friend at the library Jack Vargas, was it kind of the way that people are here and gone. Is that in some way related to your idea of phantom culture, urban exile?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, on one level. But I don't know, one day recently it actually just came out of me. I sat and I guess I'd been thinking about it a long time. But I think what I suffer from - and I've been suffering since elementary school - is survivor syndrome. And that is, the person that walks away from the plane crash. Everyone else is dead and you walk away and you're unscratched. The boat sinks and you're floating. You're doing the back stroke. And I feel like that. And it's almost like I have to tell the story. But it's also the same kind of thing. It's like I'm going to tell the story but I can't expect people to really believe me. I can't expect people to really believe my story. So, it's like there's no corroborating witness to this story. And with that idea in mind, going back to the early notion of documentary and conceptual, there's a certain level of freedom there if I can mix the two. And sometimes, I can incorporate reality and fiction to generate a stronger truth, as it were. So I can really make it vivid. And really point to what I feel is important. And have you focus on the different notions and ideas and sentiments that I might have. And sometimes through humor and sometimes by just kind of maybe going over the edge a little bit into what some people might consider distasteful or whatever in the attitude or whatever. And I try not to insult people, really, any more. But, there's a certain level I try to reach which I feel will show you something. And maybe it's just that little moment that you realize that whatever you're doing is suicidal. Or whatever you're doing is truly fate. Or whatever you're doing you could so hard and literally wind up an inch behind. Or you know, just a little slight hint that you're not exactly where you're at but if you'd just move slightly behind and it just such a - It's almost like a private disgrace. No one's going to notice it. You know what I mean?

JEFFERY RANGEL: Yeah.

HARRY GAMBOA: And it's those kind of things that I'm kind of interested in where these little fragile moments, I think like dreams, that are private -- People don't want to talk about them. You can't explain to people what you've just seen because you're not sure yourself. But you still have the experience. And so I think that sensation comes from living in an urban environment, but it also comes from being bombarded by so much visual and auditory stimuli that you have these layers and layers and layers of information that serves as memory and it's not even memory. It's some other construct. And it's basically all interference. And for you to see clearly, it's impossible.

JEFFERY RANGEL: That idea of memory Harry . . . kind of reminds me of another line of questioning I wanted to ask you about in terms of I don't know how you feel about being kind of identified as the documentarian of Asco or a lot of phantom culture or aspects of Los Angeles that don't otherwise get represented. How that connects with memory or loss of memory or these other stimuli that are supposed to serve as memory but actually aren't.

HARRY GAMBOA: I guess a lot of the production actually comes with the intent that it's going to be remembered. So I think from early on my production has always been that it's going to wind up resulting in some published form. So, for instance, even photography. I was never really concerned with the print as a precious art object. It's always something that I'm going to send out to a magazine or a publication or have it reproduced somewhere. People are going to see it. And because they see it, they're going to walk away with it. It's going to stick with them. And the more people who get to see it, the more it's a collective experience and the more it kind of has this - It also interferes. I'm interfering with that process by throwing in my visual and auditory conceptual monkey wrenches. And that's been my point all along. It's like, okay, it's a big damn machine but look what little it's going to take to put a stop to this. So, I think I still have some of that sensibility about it. And I think there was awhile there where I held some of my work as being really like this precious material. And now I know it's all - Any of it could vanish at any given point. And I try not to throw away or tear up as many things as I used to. But I still do. And I tend to work with things when I know there's going to be a venue for them. So, almost nothing is a sketch and almost nothing is a note.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Just the final product, huh?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah.

JEFFERY RANGEL: I remember once hearing you say something like the way you write it just kind of builds up to the point where you've got to just sit down and write it down as it comes out.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, it's kind of weird because it's like I feel like I hang out. Like I'm doing this today. Maybe I'm doing this but on a certain level I'm kind of thinking about a little problem I have somewhere. I'm processing. And then when I write, it's like just pressing print. You know, that's how it comes out. It's just like that. And I usually just write from beginning to end, title to the final period, and it's done. And I don't know where that training came from but I think it came from early on. I was never really one to write notes. I always liked to type and see it typed. But I never owned a typewriter. And I would only have access to typewriters here and there and momentarily. And again, going back to my ways of being, doing things, I would always make friends with secretaries who I knew wouldn't mind letting me use their typewriters at times. So, that was one of the benefits of hanging around Cal State L.A. is that when they took their lunch break, I would have access to their typewriter for an hour. So, if I had access to one hour while I had the mood, I could actually begin and end something. And because it was a typewriter, you can't really make mistakes and it helped to refine the process. And now that I have a computer, it's kind of like even funny because it's still the same way.

JEFFERY RANGEL: You just kind of step up to it?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, yeah. And what it is though is that it means that I'm going to do X amount of pieces too because it's like when I finally do sit down, it's something that's ready to be done. I'm not saying they're all good at all but it's going to be started and ended. For instance, in the piece here, the book, there's two pieces that are unfinished. Basically they started getting too long and my life has always been sort of like this. Now it's finally beginning to get a little bit more calm but not really. I can't say there's - To this day, I have no such thing as job security. I am a part timer. Fortunately, I've been invited, re-invited to teach at the same university over and over again. But, that generates . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: Do you have an interest in making that a permanent position?

HARRY GAMBOA: No. Not really. Actually, there was a permanent position offered. I didn't take it actually. And one of the reasons is that if I do that, I'll get real tied up in doing things and it's going to be very difficult for me to do my work. So I'd rather gamble. And without knowing what's in the black hole, I'll be willing to step up to it and enter it. And maybe I will be able to land a few things. That's what I'm always doing. I'm always doing things. And so fortunately, I work four days out of the week. I've got three days off. Maybe out of those three days, maybe half a day I can actually dedicate to my work. And that's real concentrated time. And out of that half a day, I'll actually produce something. And so, I'd have to say that every month I have something new, whatever it is. I don't know what it is, what it's going to be. But it's something.

JEFFERY RANGEL: It's a system that works for you. What would it be like if you had five days or seven days a week to create?

HARRY GAMBOA: Well, you mean like . . . Well, if I had money, money to live off of and time and the space. But, you know, like I have . . . my daughter's four and a half. And she has a bunch of little cousins. And there's always a lot of noise. And then I'm married to Barbara who loves TV and she's always doing her thing. And it's always like that. And I've always lived that way where there's always noise and there's always kids. My son now, he's twenty-one. But for the longest time, he was a kid. And it was always the same way. So I have no idea what it would be like. And even to do my work and my thinking, I go to public places where it's noisy and crowded.

JEFFERY RANGEL: So it's a method that works for you.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. It does work.

JEFFERY RANGEL: I have a whole slew of questions that would take us back to Asco, take us back to LACE, take us back to some of those developments. I don't know if you feel like getting into that now or maybe in our next session.

HARRY GAMBOA: I don't know. Yeah, you want to do that all in one session? Another session?

JEFFERY RANGEL: That might be good to get us on a roll that way.

HARRY GAMBOA: Okay.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Alright, let's wrap it up here.

HARRY GAMBOA: So if you want, okay.

END OF INTERVIEW, SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE B

ARCHIVES OF AMERICAN ART WEST COAST REGIONAL CENTER
SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION HARRY GAMBOA, JEFFERY RANGEL.

TAPE-RECORDED INTERVIEW WITH HARRY GAMBOA, JEFFERY RANGEL.
AT A CAFE, SILVER LAKE, CALIFORNIA
APRIL 16, 1999
INTERVIEWER: JEFFERY RANGEL

HARRY GAMBOA: HARRY GAMBOA, JEFFERY RANGEL.
JEFFERY RANGEL: JEFFERY RANGEL
GRONK: GRONK

Session 2, Tape 1, Side A (30-minute tape sides)

JEFFERY RANGEL: Now we are officially on. Let me introduce the tape. This is an interview with Harry Gamboa, Jr. on April 16, 1999. We're in a cafe in Silver Lake today. And the interviewer is Jeff Rangel. And I guess today we'll start off talking a little bit about how . . . you and Barbara met, seeing as I just did an interview with her the other day.

HARRY GAMBOA: Well, maybe I'll cover myself. Anything I say today is supercedes whatever I said the last time. This is the correct version. I'll just make it kind of quick about Barbara and I. I guess it was 1978, shortly after my son was born, I . . . Gronk and I, we went to go to a community center and I believe it was the organization that Barbara belonged to, with John Valadez and a few people. And I remember I was going to go see John Valadez for, I forget for what exactly. But, as I was talking to him, I could hear this woman arguing with these guys about art and aesthetics and whatever. And you know, I turned around and saw this pretty girl who - with was mighty tough, you know. She held everybody at bay as they were all trying to out argue her. And she seemed really interesting and I asked John Valadez, "Well, who's that?" And he goes, "Well, really you don't want to know her. Her name's Barbara Carrasco." I said, "Okay." My lesson in life has always been the minute somebody tells you don't want to know them, it means I really have to know them.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Right.

HARRY GAMBOA: So I didn't get to meet her that day. But coincidentally, or fatefully, that day, when I got home - you know, I was married at the time -- sticking out of mailbox was a poster that had been mailed to me from I believe it was a museum in Chicago. And I picked up the mail and I opened it up and it was this big image that I kind of liked. And I looked at the credit and it was by Barbara Carrasco. And so I said, "Wow, that's pretty interesting. You know, I'll hang onto it. Maybe she doesn't even know it exists." And then of course, in the back of my mind, there was the idea of like, you know, this is a great way to introduce myself to Barbara. So I believe there was an art exhibit about a week later or so at Self Help Graphics when they used to be on Brooklyn Avenue, which is now César Chávez. The older building, not where they're at now. And I saw Barbara in the crowd. I guess there was a performance going on or something. And her boyfriend was hanging real tight to her, you know. I decided I would just walk up to her anyway. And I said, "You know, my name's Harry Gamboa and I don't know if you know that there's a poster that came out that's got your work." And she said, "No I don't." I said, "Well, can I have your address and I'll mail it to you?" So I sent it off to her. So she still has it. And I guess it's gone in the collection, her collection.

JEFFERY RANGEL: What was the poster of? Do you remember?

HARRY GAMBOA: It's -- I don't know. Was it called Mexposicíon or something? The name of the exposition or something.

JEFFERY RANGEL: There's a Mexican Museum in Chicago?

HARRY GAMBOA: I'm not sure which museum it was. It was somewhere in Chicago. So I mailed it to Barbara. And then that kind of like connected us as a way of - You know, she got back to me and thanked me for it. And then we became friends. And we knew each other as just artist friends. I'd see her here and there and she'd see me here and there. Then we became kind of just friends. I'd talked to her. I liked the way she talked. And again, she's from El Paso. And there was a way that sort of her level of enthusiasm about everything she does, even when she gets upset or she's happy. You know, I found real interesting. And . . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: Being that she was from El Paso, her mom was from El Paso, right?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, I think her mom was. And you know, my mom's from El Paso.

JEFFERY RANGEL: That's right.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, you know, all my family's from there. But there's something about the way she talked and would express herself that kind of reminded me of the way I grew up. And so we'd talk. And then I don't know, I guess we knew each other for many, many years. And I'd see her with her different boyfriends and she'd see me with my different girlfriends even though I wasn't supposed to have girlfriends because I was married, I guess. And then those girlfriends would actually complain about me to her. And so she knew a lot more than probably you'd want your future wife to ever know about you I guess. But then, again, I knew a lot about her. And then I don't know what happened exactly but I approached her if she wanted to participate in a video project. So she did. I just did this video project, Imperfecto. And I guess this was after she had already been working on her mural. I used to go visit her when she was working on her mural at city hall.

[Side conversation to passer by] Hey, hey, hey. Look who's here. Look who's here. No, no. Well, look who's here. And here we have a guest appearance by Gronk who just happens to be by. And here's a future father.

GRONK: He says he's going to name his kid either Bohemia or Corona. [laughter]

HARRY GAMBOA: You have to nickname him Bud, you know. Hey, Gronk, what's going on? Well, you know, we're being recorded.

G. We went to Trader Joe's so I have to get him lunch since I'm his guardian.

HARRY GAMBOA: Oh man.

GRONK: He's on in-house arrest. So . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: [laughter]

HARRY GAMBOA: There you go. That's the beeper. That looks pretty cool, man. You've got to tell everybody that's like a beeper or something, you know.

GRONK: I get to electric shock him.

HARRY GAMBOA: But you know, with that thing, Gronk, he could figure out how to take it off.

Ed: Well, I only have 'til the 21st, then I'm done.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Cool.

HARRY GAMBOA: He's going to be a dad pretty soon.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Is that right? Good for you.

HARRY GAMBOA: You're going to have to learn how to knit. [laughter]

JEFFERY RANGEL: That's what you're supposed to be doing now, isn't it?

HARRY GAMBOA: Little booties. Yeah, Gronk has told me. I haven't had a camera for whole year. And that's why I haven't bothered anybody to take pictures. So, don't worry. I have you on the list.

Ed: You haven't had a camera? You mean you lost one?

HARRY GAMBOA: No, I had a . . .

GRONK: Do you want him to lift one for you? [laughter]

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, well, let me tell you the model I need by the way. I need a Nikon F-5 with a 24 millimeter lens. And then you could get matching bracelets. [laughs]

GRONK: How are things?

JEFFERY RANGEL: I'm doing pretty good. How about yourself?

GRONK: I'm in the studio working.

JEFFERY RANGEL: I hear about the show up at San Jose.

GRONK: Yeah. It's good.

HARRY GAMBOA: I didn't realize this was such a popular spot. I was thinking because we came here - because I was going to go to Phillipes. I said, "Well . . ." and then I was coming from different places out in the valley. I said, "I'll come here. I'll meet him here." And when I walked in, I bumped into three people I knew that were coming out and talked for about half an hour. And then when I sat down here, there was another guy here who's like talking to me about politics and the economy. This other guy that I know. And he reminds me of almost like the bad drug dealer characters in those Steven Segal movies?

JEFFERY RANGEL: Yeah. Why?

HARRY GAMBOA: I don't know. The guy looks like he's going to pull out a gun and just shoot you. You know what I mean? So it's like . . . and so that's why I'm very nice to him. You know? Since I don't know any of the moves Segal knows.

JEFFERY RANGEL: So, shall we continue? How should we do this?

HARRY GAMBOA: Well, Gronk has already signed on.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Yeah, he is signed on. Maybe this is an opportunity that we can't pass up.

HARRY GAMBOA: Why don't you pull up a chair right here?

JEFFERY RANGEL: We can talk about some Asco stuff now.

HARRY GAMBOA: No, we just started a minute ago.

GRONK: You can continue.

Ed: We're going to be here for at least an hour yet. We've got two hours in the parking meter.

GRONK: We're on our way to Trader Joe's so and then from there, to Home Depot to pick up some supplies.

HARRY GAMBOA: Oh yeah? It looks pretty nice.

JEFFERY RANGEL Let's take a pause here for a second.

[PAUSE]

JEFFERY RANGEL: Okay, so we were just joined by Gronk by happenstance. So we're going to make the most of it and do a joint interview session here. And since we have the two of you together, I guess, unless it's odd territory maybe this is the time to go into talking about Asco a little bit, since we didn't really get to that in your interview, or in the first leg of it anyway. So, one of the things that I did want to ask you about was I had read somewhere that - what was it? That there was a sort of inability to document or to historicize what happened with Asco. Every time you try and put your finger on it, it's kind of a myth that took on different proportions. And I wonder if you still feel that way about the attention that's been given to the group and kind of writing of Chicano history at this point, and the real formational role that the group plays. So, seeing as how we have both of you here now, it seems like an opportune time to address that. Does the question make sense?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, but maybe we don't. [laughter] Let's get on the hotline and call Patssi. Anyway, he's going to be talking to Patssi also. And when you talk to Patssi - and I'm sure you're talking to Willie Herron at some point - you'll find that you can show everyone the same ink blot and we all see it a different way. And you know, some of us laugh; some of us find it to be a very beautiful picture; some of us get insulted and the rest of us will cry. So it's always been that kind of thing. And it's difficult when you put four people together that share certain elements but at the same time are so different that I think one of the words that has been applied to us - which I don't think it really ever really was - was the term "collective". I don't think we ever went in with it like that as that concept of collective.

JEFFERY RANGEL: So it wasn't democratic in the sense that collectives are.

HARRY GAMBOA: No, it was more like - I wouldn't say it was like a gang either. But it was - I don't know. Almost like a surrogate family, like cousins. I don't know what it was. It was almost like a . . . I know what it was. It was like a litter. [laughter] And some of us were able to drink some times and some of us were left out. And it's always the one - You know, there's one that always gets given away and then the one that's, just kind of left on the curb there just like to go on its own. I'd have to say that's kind of like the way it was, that we kind of came together. One day we were just together. And I think initially we really did learn from each other, I believe, a lot of different things. First we learned about each other and learned how we responded to different things. But it was also I think some of the skills and techniques of working, creating, the possibility of being - how to improvise. And I think that's one of the things we kind of fed off because it was almost like - I've kind of used this term before but it was like a breeder reactor. We got . . . The more energy we used up, the more energy we built up. And that lasted for a really long time. So, I'd have to say like with the - I think when we first started off, Gronk was probably the most well read regarding art history and contemporary art and my kind of background in reading was something really different. And I'd never really focused on that. I had never really looked at a lot of images. And I think Gronk also knew films. I was familiar with popular films but not really foreign stuff. And then I got into that. So I kind of learned from Gronk a lot of that stuff.

And then I think from like Herron it was . . . I think his ability to just . . . see forms and just make a splatter and then see something there. So it was almost like he, he had this ability to concretize hallucinations in a way. And then he had this thing with . . . just sort of this notion of fashion, which Gronk by the way had different aesthetic regarding fashion at that time. There was something about fashion and attitude and it was - But that all came out from a lifestyle of being in the particular neighborhood of City Terrace, which was - if you're from East L.A., a certain block . . . within a certain radius you can actually develop a whole different way of perceiving things and certain attitudes. And I found myself really interested in that way. And I actually learned from Willie Herron and from Humberto Sandoval certain elements regarding fashion and attitude and survival skills. [laughs] And that's how I met my first wife. And how my son came to be. But, you know, because . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: Can you give me an example of that?

HARRY GAMBOA: Oh man, it was like how you could be tough and scary and not really be tough or scary. And how to thrive amongst a pack of wolves and swim with sharks even though you're not capable of really doing that, and how it's all facade. And how you can attract those that you want to have attracted to you and how you can repel those that are probably a danger to you. And it's by being so quick and to anticipate their threats maybe and come up with a counter-threat or come up with such a threatening presentation that people will leave you alone. And the same with the allure. It's like, you know, I guess I learned certain levels of hypnotism. [laughter] I've got to say I don't think I've ever really attracted a woman at all. Those were the ones that just got hypnotized. And so, . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: Wait 'til Barbara hears that.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, well, you know, Barbara's no longer hypnotized. It's like the . . . You wake up one day, "You are getting sleepy. You are getting sleepy." And then she's the one that snaps her finger. Okay. [laughter] So now we're all awake. But, so I learned that from those two guys. And they were just crazy guys. And I was also a crazy guy but I learned how to refine my craziness on the street with those guys.

JEFFERY RANGEL: So how does that show up in your work?

HARRY GAMBOA: Let me just touch on Patssi a little bit.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Okay. Sorry.

HARRY GAMBOA: And Patssi also had a way of just being able to transform herself with just everyday objects and a little touch of cream in whatever paint and become this beautiful icon. And then wipe it off and then start all over again. And there was something about her being able to just transform an environment, a situation, a person and just change it. And I think there was something about the way she would also tell stories. She had a really good sense of humor which she does still. And I think that's what probably unified all of us. I think I mentioned that before - was that we all could just laugh at everything in ourselves. And we were all kind of . . . I think at that point really no one had anything to lose to it was just an incredible rush to do things and not know what the results were going to be. You know, whether it was going to be successful or a failure. And if it was a failure, you could probably laugh at it. So it was never that kind of . . . there was not too much fear involved.

JEFFERY RANGEL: I know you've talked about the fact that there's a certain lack of formal training that existed amongst the four of you. Do you think that helped with that kind of experimental quality? Or that ability to laugh at yourself?

HARRY GAMBOA: I think you [Gronk], Patssi and Willie, you kind of studied painting a bit. I came in just literally . . . I literally came off the streets with zero training at all. And it showed, right?

JEFFERY RANGEL: How did you learn photography?

HARRY GAMBOA: I guess I could always look at things in a way. I could always frame things.

GRONK: It's a lot quicker than painting pictures.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. When you hang around people like Gronk, Patssi and Willie and you're trying to draw . . . and they're just whipping them out left and right and then it's like, shit, you know. Mine is like six months and it's half way done. It looks okay but . . . I can't keep pace. So I kind of . . . I don't know. I was a student or something at Cal State L.A. and I - My whole thing, and I think I mentioned before, I always go around and make friends with people who I think that might help me. And apparently I made friends with somebody and I didn't even apply. And someone pulled my shirt one day and says, "You know, Harry, you got $2,000." And I said, "What? Where'd that come from?" "Oh, well so-and-so said she liked you and she put you on the list. And now you've got a Model Cities grant." I go, "I do? Please take me over there." And I got a grant and I immediately went over to - I went with Willie Herron to buy that camera. And I had just finished looking at a photography magazine and it was these geese kind of reading a sign in Hebrew and when I saw that, I said, "I mean, I don't know where I've seen that. Maybe I've had that dream. But I've seen something just like that. That little moment, that kind of strange little moment. And I bet you I could take photographs like that." And I just got on the idea that I better - because I'd been thinking about like things I had seen in the Moratorium and things I'd seen . . . like so many things that passed me by. And I went and bought a camera and then I think I bought about two hundred rolls of film. And I basically didn't go to school. And I just took pictures. And at the end of the two hundred rolls of film, I think maybe I had ten good photographs. And one of them won an award. There was a performance group called Los Mascarones at Cal State L.A. It wound up getting published in the L.A. Times. In the meantime, I had already started shooting the group, never thinking that this would have such longevity and the whole time while I was practicing, I was actually documenting the group. And it turns out it became something. So, everyone was performing as I was learning. And that's how photography came to be.

And then in about 1978, I was walking down the street and there was an envelope. And it was addressed to - You know who it was addressed to? Oscar Castillo, the photographer. But it was an envelope that looked like it had been opened, closed and then kind of ripped partially. And I said, "Wow, Oscar." I just picked it up and I opened it up. I said, "Well, you know, he obviously didn't want this." And I was being a little nosy. And I looked at it. And what it was it was a call for a grant application that they were having a photography competition to be part of this exhibition. And whatever, whatever. And so I said, "Well, hey, maybe he didn't want to apply. I'll apply." So I didn't even know about it and I applied and I got it. And it was for this survey show that was supposed to be taking place and it was headed up by a guy by the name of Morrie Camhigh who's a documentary photographer. And Luis Carlos Bernal was the only Chicano in the show. And it's the only technical photography suggestion I ever received from anybody that I followed. And this Morrie Camhigh, he said, "Hey, listen. Color photography is great but maybe you should try black and white. And besides that, why don't you stand back a little bit. Why don't you stand back a little bit and get a little bit of the environment in it?" And it kind of changed the way I looked at things. Because with color, because it's so cinematic, you go in for the close-ups. And then the black and white, I kind of had a different feel for it. And then at that point, I actually started to shoot a lot of black and white. And what happened was they never got the grant to have the exhibition. It was supposed to actually take place in the Smithsonian, I believe.

JEFFERY RANGEL: When was this?

HARRY GAMBOA: 1978. So, I did a lot of work and some of it got reproduced in I guess it was the annual report for MALDEF [Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund]. And I guess that's in my papers at Stanford. But in the meantime, you know, I started documenting the group and doing a lot of different things, both in color and black and white. And in those days - and I tried once to . . . I tried once in the lab to try to process. And I'd studied all this stuff. And then I went in and I hated the chemical smell and I hated being in the dark. And then when you leave there, all your clothes smell like they're poison. So I then I decided that I wasn't going to do that at all. And I went out looking for the right labs. And I found this one place called Sunset Photo Lab that was like this - It was like a front really. They would actually . . . They would actually develop your pictures but what they were doing was - It was really a place where they would do pornography primarily and distribute it and all that stuff. And . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: So they're good at doctoring photos and all that

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, right. They were really good at that. So I guess I left my negatives there once for two months and the guy threw them all away. I got really upset and I wished bad on him. I said, "Hey, Roger," I said, "one of these days something bad's going to happen to your place. Just wait." He threw away my stuff. When the earthquake hit, his building fell down by the way. So I'm not responsible for that. [laughter] The guy that used to be his young helper started his own place and that's where I've been with ever since. The guy's just . . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: All right. Let's see here. Tell me about these perceived differences between groups, collectives, whatever at the time.

GRONK: I think the difference is that the others perceive themselves more so as collective type of groups where they would do things and have formal meetings of sorts. Ours were never formal in any way. It was who was available and who was around. You made the phone call and if that person was home, then you'd go out it the middle of the night and do something. So there was an informality. And there was not like really structure to it where . . .you have responsibility to too many things around you. So, you could get into a small little Volkswagen in the middle of the night and go to the L.A. County Museum and spray all the walls of the outside of the building. So those were like things that were spontaneous in a lot of ways and I was available at two o'clock in the morning. And let's just go ahead and do it. So that was the kind of attitude that we had early on in a lot of the projects. It was street pieces. It was maybe orchestrating a small group of like Patssi, Willie, Harry and myself to go out at two o'clock in the morning and go to the Music Center and do something in front of the Music Center or a building or Harry found some lighting that looked really good so we'd go to that place and stand in front of it and do a set up of a situation. And then, Harry was always the one that was with the camera so, for us I guess it was like he was the person that was documenting the whole evolution of the group from the beginning.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Is that like a director role?

HARRY GAMBOA: Not exactly. It was sort of like - I think one of the things I've always done is . . . I'm always scouting locations. So wherever I drive around - I used to drive around a lot, just always looking and different images would - I'd look at a place and I could almost see where somebody would be. And then you'd pass by at night - and then other places emerged that don't really exist during the day time but like, you know, here you have a million dollar lighting set up and it's really just one light bulb in a doorway but it looks so great and all you need to do is put somebody there. And sometimes it has to be a specific person that has to be placed there. So, an alley's full of - Actually, I've learned that Los Angeles has quite a number of places like that but it's just a way of seeing things that I guess I've learned over time. And so like for instance now I can almost - I know exactly where to set the lighting exactly, where to place the person just because I've been doing it so long. I know what's sufficient lighting and what is just not too much or too little. So, in fact, sometimes the color someone might wear will affect the way the image is going to look. So, but you know, going back to what Gronk was talking about, to this day, a lot of those artists that were part of collectives are still in this notion that you have to draw by-lines, have meetings with notes and prepare things and plan things long term. And there's something about the sense of spontaneity that just simply doesn't exist or if it does exist, it's compartmentalized and used when it's needed. And I think like you were working on your piece at San Jose and I'm sure Gronk still uses a big burst of spontaneity. I'm sure he has a bigger plan now but it's what generates the movement. And it's almost intuitive because like when Gronk was doing that piece, I showed up that day right as he was putting the last stroke. He went down like that and he goes, "Okay, it's done!" And I said, "Well, let's go eat." And then I was also in a spontaneous mood because I think we - I had a rental car and we wounded up going for about a hundred miles just to go find something to eat. And we could have gone around the block but we went a hundred miles to go get a cup of coffee up north, you know. And then it's always been that kind of thing where it's like, "Well, you know, let's add to it and maybe it's going to work. Maybe it doesn't."

JEFFERY RANGEL: So that translates to a different aesthetic.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, because it's like sometimes -- Wow. It's kind of like a metaphor about that hundred miles. It's like sometimes I will go a hundred miles just to move the spoon that's next to me because I'll have gone all that way and I'll come back and say, "Well, yeah, okay, now it's done. Oh, okay, that's what I had to do."

JEFFERY RANGEL: Right.

END SESSION 2, TAPE 1, SIDE A

BEGIN SESSION 2, TAPE 1, SIDE B

JEFFERY RANGEL: All right. This is Tape 1, Side B, continuing with Harry Gamboa, Jr. and Gronk on April 16th. Okay, we got it right. Well, the reason that I asked about these perceived differences isn't so much to try and dig up any dirt or access conflict, but really more to try and sketch what the early stages of the Chicano art scene in Los Angeles are about and go ahead.

HARRY GAMBOA: I think the other thing too is that I think rather naively on many people's parts, people felt that they could single handedly define what it was to be a Chicano. That their position would outweigh everyone else's. And that led to a lot of sense of competition for a lot of people. Like because there was no attention being addressed to the Chicano community, people wanted to be such the focal point that whatever your point of view was, whatever your agenda was would be the one that would over-arch and override everyone else. And, you know, unfortunately . . . .

JEFFERY RANGEL: What do you attribute that to?

HARRY GAMBOA: Ego. Ego. Desperation.

JEFFERY RANGEL: There's not room for multiple voices in defining that?

GRONK: Well, also it's a nationalistic kind of spirit that prevailed at that point.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, at that point it was like, you know, the party line had it made so . . . .

GRONK: At Asco on the other hand, myself from my observation is that it's a product of its time. I mean we came out of like the sixties in high school and in the seventies we were doing our art work. So the Viet Nam War is going on. People are dying all around us. Hence, a word like Asco is appropriate for the group because that's our reaction to not only the community around us but in a bigger scale, everything that we perceive the world as at that particular moment in our lives, at that particular moment in time. So I think that was an important defining factor. It wasn't us coming back to the community and saying, "Well, we're going to make these big changes." That wasn't part of the agenda in my viewpoint of that particular moment in time.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Was the romance of nationalism at that time - how did - What am I trying to say? How does that kind of sit with you now, thinking back on it? How do you attribute its attraction to other folks, or other aspects who are creating at this time?

GRONK: Well, even like Harry teaching, he sees a whole another generation coming along adapting the same kind of principals. And his students are along the same lines. They go back to a romantic notion of 1972 as being a pivotal point in their lives and that's how the Chicano student sometimes is taught. Go back. So we stay there and romanticize about that. Again, it's like - for us, it was never to go back and romanticize a particular moment in time. It was always to deal with the time we're living at now and to utilize that information and put it into our art work as well.

JEFFERY RANGEL: What about the idea of cultural recovery? Like there's certainly a romantic aspect of nationalism and the concepts such as Aztlan or whatever. But the idea of going back to reclaim certain aspects of culture which have been deemed inferior or have been completely erased in some . . .

HARRY GAMBOA: Dead. Dead..

JEFFERY RANGEL: Again, do you see any relevance of that at the time then or now?

GRONK: I think an example too is you look at something like the L.A. County Museum. And we used a medium like spray cans. We put our names on it. We didn't do like an icon of Che [Guevara] or we didn't do an icon of Zapata or utilize -- We designed it with our own emphasis something -- an important - using a medium like spray cans instead of like paint, to paint something. All of those kinds of works were choices that were made. And I think those are kinds of things that were very important for us as well.

JEFFERY RANGEL: They were conscientious choices amidst the spontaneity.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah. I mean, you

GRONK: They were intellectual choices. Artistic.

HARRY GAMBOA: Well, and you decide which weapons are going to work at the time, the particular battle. I find like the whole idea of Aztlan for me was -- It's interesting, on a certain level I still tend to keep it in mind as an idea. But I understand that it's something that's never going to exist in a physical reality. But I do understand that it kind of exists as a state of mind but I don't believe that it's something that has to . . . that can actually exist as a contemporary notion as opposed to something that has to be pre-Columbian. Just this whole existence of Chicano culture because it had been so effectively excluded from mainstream America that I feel that it's still necessary to have that idea and to operate with on a certain level. Otherwise, any notion of being Chicano would be inappropriate. Why would one even consider it as an idea? Why not just become thoroughly homogenized with what the rest of society's all about? And if other people are not doing it themselves. Which is exactly it. Some people want to absorb, don't want to give. So I find that I'm always consciously pursuing works that portray Chicanos in different situations without having to really direct the attention. Like, "Hey, we're all Mexicans. We're all Chicanos. This is what Chicanos do." It's more like these are Chicanos and this is what they can do. This is what we are doing. And it's like this is one example of the kinds of things that we do. And let me toss this into the spectrum of what you might consider when dealing with other issues. And you've got your vast array of stereotypes but here's something else you want to toss into the mix and do those stereotypes still have potency after looking at this. And that's kind of my approach to it as opposed to this is what we do, this is who we are.

JEFFERY RANGEL: Okay.

HARRY GAMBOA: And my idea is like, you know, we're all human beings and we're just kind of caught in this political and social situation where sometimes it does take a little moment where you have to kind of define certain elements of your own uniqueness, but at the same time you have to express what's common, the commonalities with everyone else.

JEFFERY RANGEL: How does that approach play out in the midst of a political movement, in the midst of a growing arts movement at that time? Are you even comfortable with talking about a Chicano arts movement?

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, I'm comfortable. I mean, it was a bunch of crazy people actually. [laughter] You know, it's -- It depends. I mean, it's like - I think artists first of all see things very differently. And you get people that are really fixated on an image and an idea and there's no possibility that they'll ever see something ever again besides that. And you have that kind of element. And then you have sort of like real political extremists which is another thing. And you're just always dealing with extreme types. So that if you come in and you say, "Well, you know, . . . ." Gronk has been known for this and me too. You just make fun of everything. And before you know it, someone might be chasing you around the gallery with a hammer, which I believe has happened to somebody. But you know, you're quick and you're smart and you're smarter than they are to get away.

JEFFERY RANGEL: . . . and you have your exits mapped out once you enter.

HARRY GAMBOA: Yeah, there you go. I think I mentioned that before where I always walk in and figure out where the three exits are, you know. And it's always a danger to really express yourself in a strong movement because you can easily be deemed to be the enemy or to be an agent of the enemy or to be someone who's not following the rules close enough. And if it's a really strong movement, one has to align themselves with whatever the party dictates, or whatever the movement dictates. And the thing is . . . .

GRONK: And that's when innovation suffers too. That's what Asco is about as well. Was it was trying to be as innovative or utilizing materials that most people disregarded or didn't pay much attention to. Like the human body. Those transformations. Different things that were taking place in our own lives, that we utilized, took from and showed it to the world.

HARRY GAMBOA: And basically where we grew up was a very conservative environment. Very repressive environment. Chicano culture was very repressive. But the Anglo culture was very open. So you have these two energies and then you want to do something that's new and different that doesn't match what everyone's doing. You're basically fighting a whole range of things, on multiple fronts and, you know, you stand up like a sore thumb. And if you're not really - Again, if you're not really sharp and creative and very quick on your feet and quick with your tongue, you might actually suffer the consequences of coming up with an idea that contradicts someone else's point of view.

JEFFERY RANGEL: What kind of consequences are we talking about here?

HARRY GAMBOA: I mean, literally getting beat up. Literally getting arrested. Literally getting slapped by someone you don't even know. And I believe East L.A.'s always been kind of like that, where the community kind of like polices itself and just simply by seeing someone that's not dressed a certain way or acting a certain way, anyone is free to condemn that person and to put that person into line. And there's a million examples of that. And for instance, I'm sure you'll find in East L.A. that you'll find certain groups of people will never go there because it could be due to racism or certain kinds of people won't go there because it's . . . certain level of prejudice are just immediately punished. So, certain rules do not apply. You're just not all that free there. It's just like the fundamentalist movements. Very strict. And so you always have to be aware that someone might be around that's part of that kind of thought pattern and is going to really take it upon themselves to execute whatever . . . whatever punishment is deemed necessary to get you back in line.

JEFFERY RANGEL: It seems to me the repressive energies and the oppressive energies coming together, it seems to me in some ways an unlikely place for creativity to emerge. And then on the other hand, it seems like the first kind of place that it would emerge. I'm wondering how to make sense of those.

HARRY GAMBOA: It's kind of like -- you know like arc welding? It's where you've got these two pieces of carbon and then you have the electrical spark in between. And that's it. That's where it happens. It's like when the hammer hits that rock, there's that spark. It's the least likely place you're going to find something that's beautiful and shiny and it goes off in a different direction. And I think that's what we were. We were kind of like that.

JEFFERY RANGEL: One of the things that has surfaced for me in terms of maybe the direction of where that spark has gone, I've seen both of you have either been associated with or have done some type of work in the setting of a cultural center like Self Help or LACE or something like that. I'm curious what it means for you to create in a space like that? And the differences of a space like Self Help or LACE or if there's other museums or galleries that I'm missing versus on the street or something like that?

GRONK: Well, you utilize for as long as you can a particular space or occupy it for a moment in time. And in my case, perhaps Self Help Graphics for maybe six months was a place where I did things. After that, it's a place where I will not go back to. [chuckles] Because you just don't feel comfortable within that situation. And I think it's the same thing with LACE also. It was